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CoachBelch

Fire Tram, hire Gibby

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Some of you guys are really hard on CoachBelch. Come on.

Tram shouldn't be expected to win with this team, but he has certainly made some awful decisions this year. The Tigers are short on talent, but Tram has mishandled the talent the team does have.

He has been good with the pitchers, though.

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djhutch

I agree tram has nothing. I was comparing Infante, Santigo, And Pena to last year when they were in the majors. I don't have the #'s in front of me but I thought Pena did decent hitting like 18 homers after the weaver trade. I could be wrong on that. And I thought Infante hit 300 something in september last year after the call up. And your right Inge could never hit but it was still stunning to see anyone hit 150 while playing everyday in mid-june.

Tram is good guy but I just was not sure a rookie manager was the right move with all these young players? I guess firing accplish nothing at this point. Although I'd love to see gibby run the show. Oh well we did win two straight and I am going tomorrow night to watch the sweep of the Blue Jays.

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CoachBelch,

I'm sorry if my post was harsh. I should've tempered it. I do see it as Trammell managing minor league talent at a higher level though which in my mind makes it impossible to evaluate much of what he's done or not done.

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Everyone who has smashed me for my Phil Garner & Buddy Bell are better managers than tram. You say nothing to back up your point. All I hear about it is HE HAS NOTHING, NONE OF THIS IS HIS FAULT. Well how do know he going to be this great manager when he gets good players.(which he won't). What exaclty are you guys going on that tram is this great manager? You guys are in 84 land! DD and Illitch plan has worked! The fans of Detroit have been tricked again and many of you poor saps don't care. The 84 tigers smokescreen is working to perfection on this board.

Which is why my post was recieved such bitter reaction

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I don't know if Trammell is better or worse than Bell or Garner. He's probably better than Pujols. (I've got a sharp pair of tasseled loafers in my closet that would be a better manager than Pujols.)

However, if he were John Doe Rookie Manager and not Alan Trammell, IMHO, he would be run out of town on a rail by now. And Dombrowski would be too, for putting such an inexperienced team together with an inexperienced manager. So when I hear posts saying that Trammell's not at fault, give him a break, etc., I believe that Ilitch/DD are getting exactly what they hoped for when they hired him.

Peace,

Shabba

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Originally posted by CoachBelch

djhutch

I agree tram has nothing. I was comparing Infante, Santigo, And Pena to last year when they were in the majors. I don't have the #'s in front of me but I thought Pena did decent hitting like 18 homers after the weaver trade. I could be wrong on that. And I thought Infante hit 300 something in september last year after the call up. And your right Inge could never hit but it was still stunning to see anyone hit 150 while playing everyday in mid-june.

Tram is good guy but I just was not sure a rookie manager was the right move with all these young players? I guess firing accplish nothing at this point. Although I'd love to see gibby run the show. Oh well we did win two straight and I am going tomorrow night to watch the sweep of the Blue Jays.

I wouldn't say that these 3 (Pena, Infante, & Santiago) are necessarily worse under Tram. Pena actually had only 12 HRs with the Tigers - 7 with the A's.

Pena's Stats

& I wouldn't call Infante's September indicative of what we can expect from him long term.

The team is so young. They'll get better, or they'll be gone. That's the one thing I think Tram has going for him. He doesn't appear to be hesitant to sit somebody, or even ship somebody out. Look @ Kingsale. He recommended we trade for him. Gene didn't hit squat. Tram let him go. That impressed me.

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Whose decision was it to get rid of Easley? That was a bonehead move as far as IM concerned.

Once Infante fell on his face we had no backup...At least they could have sent Easley to Toledo.

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Originally posted by shabba4detroit

However, if he were John Doe Rookie Manager and not Alan Trammell, IMHO, he would be run out of town on a rail by now. And Dombrowski would be too, for putting such an inexperienced team together with an inexperienced manager. So when I hear posts saying that Trammell's not at fault, give him a break, etc., I believe that Ilitch/DD are getting exactly what they hoped for when they hired him.

Amen! Trammell seems to have deflected a lot of criticism just by being Trammell. There's some kind of press blitz going on, too. I mean, last year, you didn't hear much about what Pujols was up to. Seriously, Pujols was like a substitute teacher. He was just filling the position. But this year with Trammell, it seems that Trammell's thoughts and decision making process have been appearing all over the papers. This really makes Trammell look like an active manager.

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Originally posted by Sid Monge

Seriously, Pujols was like a substitute teacher. He was just filling the position.

Truer words may never have been spoken. I'll bet spitballs were hitting him in the back of the head all season.

Peace,

Shabba

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Actually I've argued the same point I am for Trammell for every manager since Buddy Bell. I thought Bell was a pretty decent manager myself. However, it's impossible to make any judgements on Trammell based on the talent he has.

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Originally posted by CoachBelch

Well how do know he going to be this great manager when he gets good players.(which he won't). What exaclty are you guys going on that tram is this great manager? You guys are in 84 land! DD and Illitch plan has worked! The fans of Detroit have been tricked again and many of you poor saps don't care. The 84 tigers smokescreen is working to perfection on this board.

Which is why my post was recieved such bitter reaction

I can't speak for others, but the reason it recieved such a bitter reaction from me is that its illogical on its surface. You berate us for being in '84 land, but you promote hiring Gibby; he's as much a part of '84 as Tram. Give us some credit, you're not the only one who realizes that Illitch put Tram in that position IN PART to buy some favorable fan reaction, but we've accepted that and are willing to give a rookie manager who is a legend in this town and working with minor league talent more than 80 games before we run him out.

You criticize us and say that we can't possibly know that Tram will be a great manager eventually, but then follow that up by saying that you know he won't.:confused::devious: On one hand you plead ignorance regarding player stats that you've attempted to use to back up your argument and start to take on the attacked victim role and in teh next breath you call us 'saps' for supporting Tram. Come back with a better, informed argument free of insults and you might get a better reaction.

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Yeah, what he said. Grenade-rollers being what they are, Coach Belch has succeeded in sufficiently stirring the pot, but methinks the pot he has been smoking clouded his memory and compromised his powers of persuasion.

On another note, I second the Toledo Tiger Fans criticism - bunting in the American League is just asinine. I know this lineup has absolutely no pop, but neither does it have anyone that can make contact on a consistent basis. With this collection of batsmen, giving up outs in the name of Baseball Logic is pretty self-defeating because the Tiger being sacrificed to second base has little or no chance of scoring.

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One more point about Trammell vs. Gibby too. Trammell has at least coached in the Bigs. What did Gibson do before this year? he did some TV and went on vacation the other part of the summer. What credentials at all does Gibson have? Personally I was a little leary about Gibson because of his love-fest for Higginson.

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The problem here is that the fans and management are looking at things with two very different perspectives. Many people argue that Trammell is running too much or keeping in pitchers too long. The simple fact is that Tramm is trying to see what he has to work with. Yes, he is keeping in pitchers too long, if by "too long" it is meant that in order to win the percentages say to remove him. I think the way Tramm views it is that young pitchers can't grow and learn if they are always yanked out of games once they get into jams. Perhaps he IS running too much but we are learning who can hit and run and who can't, who can sacrifice guys over and who can't.

I applaud Alan for putting himself in a position to feel a lot of heat for having such a poor record in exchange for trying to get a better feel for what this team is all about.

A good example surfaced in the game the other night. Alan could have walked Delgado to load the bases and brought in a right hander to face Myers but instead he left Maroth out there to face one of the best power hitters at the current time. Maroth proved that he can come through under pressure and he has done it several times throughout the year. Knotts and Cornejo have not but we would not know this unless Tramm left guys out "too long".

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I agree w/Toledo Tiger. (You didn't weigh the chain, did you Doc?) The initial post is idiotic. So Pujols & Alou must be much better coaches this year than they were last year - just look at the records! Phil Garner - LOL!

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Originally posted by DTroppens

One more point about Trammell vs. Gibby too. Trammell has at least coached in the Bigs. What did Gibson do before this year? he did some TV and went on vacation the other part of the summer. What credentials at all does Gibson have? Personally I was a little leary about Gibson because of his love-fest for Higginson.

Good Point.

Another point (which I don't think has been brought up) is that

IF Trammell did get fired (which would NEVER happen) would Gibson WANT to fill in?

Trammell asked Gibson to come in and help him; and IF Gibson was asked to manage I seriously do NOT think he would do it...for the simple fact that Gibson might feel as if he wer stabbing Alan in the back.

Gibson would NEVER do that to his friends.

*just my humble opinion*

:cool:

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If memory serves me correct, Gibby has said in the past that he didn't want to head coach. It was mentioned after one of the last coaches got canned, and he said he wouldn't do it. If Tram leaves, Gibby won't be far behind...

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The more one run losses the Tigers pile up the more I think it points out that Tram is a hapless coach. The games are close meaning the teams the Tigers play arent that much better...its just one manager happens to find a way to score that extra run to win the game.

KC 3 Detroit 2

KC 9 Detroit 8

last 2 nights....in fact I think the entire month of May there were 26 games of 28 that the Tigers had a good shot to win.

In 1984 the Tigers were 35-5 to start...but the games were all pretty close all year long proving you have to work hard to win no matter how much talent you have.

If Trammell goes 39-123 he has to be fired.....but I dont think that will happen...Rumour is Gibson would be hired by the LA Dodgers as a coach not the Tigers.

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If Trammell goes 39-123 he has to be fired

First year coach with possibly the worst talent ever for a major league club should get fired=whatever.

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Originally posted by Mattingly70

First year coach with possibly the worst talent ever for a major league club should get fired=whatever.

What Donny Baseball said.

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Keep eating that corn bread....Dombrowski has you eating out of his hand. I am pulling for Tram .... good win tonight putting in Monroe with a couple more doubles....the bats are coming around. This team isnt that bad. We just need the right combination of players.

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Lansing Lugnut,

We lose one-run ball games for exactly the same reasons why we lose blowouts - our relief pitching, our starting lineup, our bench players and our defense are seriously deficient compared to any other team in baseball. If we are tied entering the eighth we aren't "tied". We are still at some serious disadvantages because we have no true ace reliever, no true strategic offensive players to use on the bench and no true proven talent with ML experience whatsoever.

I was at Toledo today and saw a bunch of those players we've had this year down there today. Inge (although he did have a key hit tonight), Boccachica (who also homered in the game), Kingsale and Infante are all batting below .250 at the AAA LEVEL still! How do you expect to win with this type of talent at the Big League level? Our team batting average (this is a guess because it's been awhile since I checked) is a good .025 points worse than any other team, and probably worse than that gap in terms of slug pct and OBP. Those are deficiencies that can't be overcome easily whether a game is a blowout or a one-run game. In fact going into a game that's down to one or two innings and still tied statistically we are still at a serious deficiency to win those games despite it being tied. That's not entirely Trammell's fault if at all. That has to do with the talent of the players and their physical ability to execute successfully - something they've been unable to do all year long consistently.

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DTroppens

:classic:

Good vent-job -- seriously.

But, this is also not Tram's fault, holmes.

You name the best manager in the game today -- you pick. And I'd bet you a case of Bud Light, that manager doesn't have this team winning ball games, left and right. This TEAM simply sucks :devious:

THE END

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Jon,

It's not really a vent job as much as that is exactly how I feel. I saw these kids play a ton last year at Toledo and then some here last fall. It was fun to watch them play and I posted tons of times how I enjoyed watching these kids play. I loved their passion and their fundamentally sound play in the field. But I also hesistated from saying they were our promised players.

I was glad to see us shift to them this spring but I had no lofty goals for them. I picked well over 100 losses this year and said my only goal was to see if we could keep them playing with heart all year long. Those were the only goals - and I probably saw these kids play as much last year as anyone here on the MB last season (between Toledo and Detroit). Heck, two years ago I even listened to a good handful of the games on the internet in Erie. And with all that I still didn't see anything that great coming up in terms of a respectable record. This team had no chance to contend this year, no chance at .500 this year and really only a slim chance in my mind to play .400 ball this season. I will be the first to admit I didn't think 120 losses was really possible (but I did use it as an extreme example in terms of my long-term goals for the season) but I still don't think you can shoulder any of these problems on Trammell's head. He's worked more like a little league coach with these players all year - working on fundamentals and infield practices before games. No one does this at the big leagues but we do it quite often. The coaching staff works hard on an almost daily basis with the team and if anything maybe they work them too hard.

In my estimation the coaching staff only deserves kudos for how hard they've worked with the talent they were given.

I'll go back to my chess analogy. If I played Kasparov a game of chess 162 times with starting without a queen, his two rooks and maybe missing a knight no matter how much more he knows about chess than me he's not going to win many of those 162 games. That's going to be reflected in blowout games between us and close one-piece games against us. He may be able to use his skills to get a few wins against someone as dumb as me, but I think I know enough about chess that he can't expect to win too many games. Is Trammell a Kaparov of the managerial world? Probably not but with the talent he has to work with we really don't know one way or the other. How any of us can say he's a good or bad manager with the team he has is ridiculous. The talent he has makes it impossible to evaluate him as a manager.

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Jon,

It seems you are making posts left and right tonight. I'll have to try to outrace you with posts tonight I guess.:classic:

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