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Matt Joyce traded to Rays for Edwin Jackson

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I guess the answer is, you have to have both, and if you overpay for one (i.e. A-Rod) then you probably can't afford the other.

So Pujols or A-Rod have more pure value, but then good luck having enough funds for playoff-caliber pitching.

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And if this trade becomes somewhat like the Hamilton/Volquez trade of last winter, where both players blow up and becomes All-Stars, tell me...

You have to do it on a case by case basis but I would usually take the young hitter because pitchers are more fragile. A really great young hitter will probably be good for another 10 years. A pitcher can get hurt at any time. If you are trading older players and you just want to get one year out of them, then I might lean towards the pitcher. It depends on so many factors though. You can't just say always take the pitcher or always take the hitter.

With Joyce versus Jackson, I would pick the one who I think will have a better career. I don't think either will be a star but I think Joyce has a better chance to have a productive career. If we are going just by upside, I would take Jackson. However, I think the chances of him reaching his upside are small.

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Who's been to the playoffs more?

Oh .. and who has more championships; Josh Beckett or Alex Rodriguez?

Who has won more championships: Luis Sojo or Greg Maddux?

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I think the best part of this thread is watching Benke plead with people to stop discussing it - as if he has no power whatsoever to stop himself from clicking on a thread that he doesn't want to read.

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I would rather have Hamilton than Volquez. He's a terrific player, not just a hitter. In fact, when talking about elite players/pitchers in general, I would choose the position player because he's going to affect a lot more games.

This concept really only makes a lot of sense with the old "if you were starting a team from scratch" question. With established teams, so much would depend on the rest of the roster. Especially so for guys the level of a Joyce and Jackson.

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You have to do it on a case by case basis but I would usually take the young hitter because pitchers are more fragile. A really great young hitter will probably be good for another 10 years. A pitcher can get hurt at any time. If you are trading older players and you just want to get one year out of them, then I might lean towards the pitcher. It depends on so many factors though. You can't just say always take the pitcher or always take the hitter.

With Joyce versus Jackson, I would pick the one who I think will have a better career. I don't think either will be a star but I think Joyce has a better chance to have a productive career. If we are going just by upside, I would take Jackson. However, I think the chances of him reaching his upside are small.

Correct answer, IMHO

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We had the "pitcher vs position player, who is more valuable" argument last year at this time. I argued pitcher and Lee and Yoop argued position player. I still think the starting pitcher brings more value, assuming equal durability, but I will lose the argument based on the fragility of pitchers generally. The future for position players is generally more predictable.

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We had the "pitcher vs position player, who is more valuable" argument last year at this time. I argued pitcher and Lee and Yoop argued position player. I still think the starting pitcher brings more value, assuming equal durability, but I will lose the argument based on the fragility of pitchers generally. The future for position players is generally more predictable.
I tend to give position players more value because they contribute to both the run-scoring and the defense, and pitchers do need plays made behind them. However, I do think the value of an "ace" starting pitcher does increase at playoff time (I think Lee might dispute that though).

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I tend to give position players more value because they contribute to both the run-scoring and the defense, and pitchers do need plays made behind them. However, I do think the value of an "ace" starting pitcher does increase at playoff time (I think Lee might dispute that though).

I think its harder to find servicable starting pitching compared to a extra bat. (See-Cust,Jack), but throw in the fact that servicable young starting pitching is even harder to find.

Were talking about someone who was likely to be a 4th outfielder for us, while getting alot of bus tokens from Toledo to Detroit.

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I think its harder to find servicable starting pitching compared to a extra bat. (See-Cust,Jack), but throw in the fact that servicable young starting pitching is even harder to find.

Were talking about someone who was likely to be a 4th outfielder for us, while getting alot of bus tokens from Toledo to Detroit.

Joyce may have more return long term, but even that remains to be seen. I agree with you Van on the short term - Joyce would have been at most a platoon OF in 2009, more likely he would have been at AAA. Jackson helps the pitching immediately on a regular basis, even if he's only the #4 or #5 starting pitcher.

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Ok, so they had gotten themselves into a hole (or a perceived hole) at SP and they had spent too much money on sub-par players like Willis and Robertson so they felt forced to give up more talent than they got back? That sounds about right and it meets my definition of a bad trade.

I don't see what Robertson's or Willis' contract has to do with this. We need more league average innings. Due to the loss of Rogers, Bonderman's and Willis' health issues, and Robertson's ineffectiveness, I think it's reasonable to think we'll need more players who could fill out our rotation (or bullpen). Further, this is a need on the major league club. Joyce didn't project to fill a need at the major league club, whether he swings left handed or not, and so he is expendable. Ballclubs will often make inequitable trades based on talent, if the return fits a need at the major league level.

If you really want to make this into the Tiger's mismanagement of payroll which forced them into making a bad trade, that doesn't go far with me. Sure, they made a couple of bad extensions. But that is dwarfed by the problems that are resulting for the recession we are in, where Detroit is particularly hit pretty hard.

Pitching has been an issue with this ballclub for two straight seasons. Given the apparent lack of funds available to fix the problem through FA, I'm glad they have made a trade for a low-cost alternative. Unfortunately it cost us Joyce, but you have to give up something to get something.

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Jackson signs for $2.2M plus a handful of incentives. Quite a bit cheaper than I thought. More fuel for this fire???

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Jackson signs for $2.2M plus a handful of incentives. Quite a bit cheaper than I thought. More fuel for this fire???

Tigers agreed to terms with RHP Edwin Jackson on a one-year, $1.825 million contract.

Jackson could have asked for more based on his 14 wins, but $1.825 million isn't too shabby for a guy with a career 5.15 ERA. He'll likely be the Tigers' fourth starter.

per rotoworld

?????????

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I tend to give position players more value because they contribute to both the run-scoring and the defense, and pitchers do need plays made behind them. However, I do think the value of an "ace" starting pitcher does increase at playoff time (I think Lee might dispute that though).

No, I wouldn't dispute that. With all the days off in post-season, teams can use their best pitchers more often. Thus, I think a team with an ace gets an advantage in post-season.

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No, I wouldn't dispute that. With all the days off in post-season, teams can use their best pitchers more often. Thus, I think a team with an ace gets an advantage in post-season.
I've changed my mind again. No longer are you always wrong. Just try to catch up with Jake a bit, OK? :wink:

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I've changed my mind again. No longer are you always wrong. Just try to catch up with Jake a bit, OK? :wink:

I'll try but it will be it will be hard to match Jake's wrongness. :classic:

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Tigers agreed to terms with RHP Edwin Jackson on a one-year, $1.825 million contract.

Jackson could have asked for more based on his 14 wins, but $1.825 million isn't too shabby for a guy with a career 5.15 ERA. He'll likely be the Tigers' fourth starter.

per rotoworld

?????????

I saw a couple of sources, both stated $2.2M, one indicated there was another $200k of incentives. I can't access Cot's from work, but it's probably updated.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090120&content_id=3751567&vkey=news_det&fext=.jsp&c_id=det&partnerId=rss_det

Both Jackson and Laird came over to Detroit in December trades. Neither will have to start out their Tigers tenures with a hearing. Jackson settled for a $2.2 million salary, while Laird will earn $2.8 million.

I figured Jackson would be in the $3-4M range, so this was a pretty nice contract. Daniel Cabrera signed a 1 year $2.6M contract, which means Jackson settled right in with his best comp in the market.

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