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Danny Worth-

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The names being thrown around our shortstop opening are not very good players. Each either is expensive in either trade value or dollars, a bad hitter, bad fielder or each. The Padres seem inclined to keep Greene, and the Pirates supposedly wanted Hu, Young and another player from LA for Wilson...no thanks for that price.

With the common thought being that Iorg will be our 2010 starter, why not go with a combination of Worth and Santiago this year? It saves us money until 2010, and allows us to see what Worth has.

As far as levels Worth is our most advanced SS prospect. If he fails then give Hollimon a chance when healthy and work Iorg in come september. If Worth succeeds, we have a tradeable assett or we could move him to second to replace Polanco. It would be good to have a plan B in case Iorg struggles in Erie this year.

I dont think Worth will be a star but I do think he is the value choice for us.

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I'm not disagreeing with that Van.

I can't see wasting good money on another bad SS. OR, trading something valuable for some 1/2 baked SS like Greene.

Furcal is out of his gourd for what he wants to be paid. It's simply not worth it.

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Hollimon can't be an option until midseason due to his injury, so it would be all on Worth's shoulders.

With that said, I completely agree, and Worth would not only be an excellent choice to platoon with Santiago defensively, but the money saved could be put to use for a starter and/or relievers/closer.

I'm really begining to think the same method might be used with addressing the need at catcher too. It's probably best to find a decent, good defensive and cheap, younger catcher to platoon with Ryan, such as Paulino, or Treanor, Blanco, or Zaun if any veterans. This assuming players like Montero, Doumit, Ianetta, Napoli or Laird become too demanding in market returns.

Back to Worth, I think he might struggle offensively, well obviously, but one can hope that Santiago can continue his improved production, allowing Leyland to see Worth as his "defense first" guy he'll always consider carrying on the roster as he did with Santiago before his offensive surge last year.

I can almost feel confident that Ramon will hit .270-5 hrs-40 rbi in 2009, given at least 350 at bats, and maybe even hit .300 consistantly?. :confused:

Worth seems like he'd be more of a .225-3hr-20 rbi in 250 at bats.

The concerns of having an offensive black hole on the left side of the infield will be dependant on Inge's abilities.

If Brandon can return to 2006 form, and post .260-20+hrs-70 rbi, then this won't look so bad, but if he's like 2008 and posts .200-10hrs-40 rbi (or worse)then this will look bad.

But surley, a left feild defense gaurded by Inge/Santiago/Worth will help the pitching staff out tremendously!:grin:

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"But surley, a left feild defense gaurded by Inge/Santiago/Worth will help the pitching staff out tremendously" I agree!

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I'd be okay with a Worth/Santiago time share of some kind. Make sure the defense is sound. If you're gonna put a trade together, do it to fill your catching problem.

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Why is everyone so sure Santiago is a good defender? Reputation? Many fielding metrics hate him.

It's hard to measure the fielding of a part-time player but I agree that the fielding metrics have never shown that he is a great fielder. It might be a case of what Uecker said: "I was a good back-up catcher until I actually had to play".

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As I have posted before, it seems like this organization has a tendency to lable players such as:

Santiago, Raburn, (to some degree) Thames, et al. as backup players. When that happens, many posters here don't seem to accept it and want these players to be starters. When the fact is that IF the organization sees them as backups, it appears that this is their role........................

I think DD and Tiger management makes their mind up and the rest of us need to accept it ------------

There have been many times when management has had the "opportunity" to allow these guys cracks at being starters, but, they've never allowed them to be a starter long enough to see if they can handle it or not..........what makes any of us think Santiago will be treated differently?????????????

Other than the fact that the free agency market is bare and there are no easy answers to fill the position in '09!

Also ------------ I understand DD is high on Iorg, but, I want to go on record in disagreement. I just don't think he's the long-term answer at short and for sure, I don't think he will be the answer in 2010. To me, he looks like a long-term third baseman, IF he can hit at the ML level, which remains to be seen.

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Also ------------ I understand DD is high on Iorg, but, I want to go on record in disagreement. I just don't think he's the long-term answer at short and for sure, I don't think he will be the answer in 2010. To me, he looks like a long-term third baseman, IF he can hit at the ML level, which remains to be seen.

I am also skeptical. I understand he has great talent and upside and I can't wait to see what he does next year but I think he is getting a bit over hyped. I don't think you can safely project a kid as the starting shortstop in 2010 when he didn't even dominate A ball this year.

I think DD and Tiger management makes their mind up and the rest of us need to accept it ------------

That's not going to happen! :happy:

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As I have posted before, it seems like this organization has a tendency to lable players such as:

Santiago, Raburn, (to some degree) Thames, et al. as backup players. When that happens, many posters here don't seem to accept it and want these players to be starters. When the fact is that IF the organization sees them as backups, it appears that this is their role........................

I think DD and Tiger management makes their mind up and the rest of us need to accept it ------------

There have been many times when management has had the "opportunity" to allow these guys cracks at being starters, but, they've never allowed them to be a starter long enough to see if they can handle it or not..........what makes any of us think Santiago will be treated differently?????????????

Other than the fact that the free agency market is bare and there are no easy answers to fill the position in '09!

Also ------------ I understand DD is high on Iorg, but, I want to go on record in disagreement. I just don't think he's the long-term answer at short and for sure, I don't think he will be the answer in 2010. To me, he looks like a long-term third baseman, IF he can hit at the ML level, which remains to be seen.

I respect your opinion. I do think we need to acknowledge the fact many players are not considered starting material by their own organizations, are often considered starting material by "OTHER" organizations. If the players you mentioned were considered starter worthy by others, they have long been affordable and available in the trade market. Yet, they are still Tigers.

This leads me to believe other scouts and management assess their abilites exactly as Tiger management does.

Mike I will say this, talent evaluation often is llike a beauty contest. Many see the same player, yet value their abilities differently. That being said, in your career, I am confident you have thought some kids were can't miss and they missed badly and vice versa, some kids you thought would fall short and eneded up attaining a career far in excess of what you projected.

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agreed, but, in my career, I ALWAYS allowed the player to determine if he would "make it" or not!! I believe in giving a player opportunity when his chance comes up -- I was merely trying to make the point that DD and this Tiger management doesn't always do this, even though many of US posters want them to.

When I was in control of my organization, I allowed the players to make the determination by THEIR play, giving them the chance. In this organization, DD is the guy making the call and I think often times, he doesn't allow the player the "start" because in his mind, he's a back up --ONLY.

Sure, I did have my share of "missed evaluations", but, they were normally of the ilk of the underachiever ending up making it. I was pretty good at identifying the talent that WAS there that would make it. I didn't miss on many "Iorg's" of the world (where others overevaluated, but, not me), but, did miss on some of the Chris Iannetta's of the world who made it, seemingly from overachieving, not strictly from an overabundance of natural talent.

The Scott Kazmir, Zack Greinke, Chad Billingsley and James Loney's of the world are EASY to evaluate, it's the Jensen Lewis, Jordan Schafer and Evan Meek's that were always difficult for me.

However, I hardly ever missed on the Chris Gruler, John Mayberry and Brian Dopirak's of the world!!

As an early example, I remember in the '99 draft telling everying that I thought Jake Peavy (St. Paul's Episcopal School in Mobile) was a MUCH better pitcher than Bobby Bradley (West Palm Beach Wellington)(8th overall of the Pirates) and used to get laughed at when saying so ----------------- well, who's laughing these days? Neither Bobby ----- nor the Pirates!

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Thanks, intersting perspective. Iorg is going to be an important watch in the DD legacy. They may look back on the 2009 SS class and regret not being more aggressive on a Furcal, who would change the dynamic of their lineup.

The sytem needs some higher ceiling position players, hoping that the 2009 draft with the help of some extra picks, improves the overall depth talent level.

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The thing with Santiago is that we are not the only team who views him as a backup, the other teams must as well. I mean we got him on a minor league deal. Maybe he has got better since then but with other teams needing shortstops we would hear more rumors over him.

To me last year was a career year for him. As with most backups you fear over exposing him.

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The thing with Santiago is that we are not the only team who views him as a backup, the other teams must as well. I mean we got him on a minor league deal. Maybe he has got better since then but with other teams needing shortstops we would hear more rumors over him.

To me last year was a career year for him. As with most backups you fear over exposing him.

I guess I'm the only one who is saying this, but I think Santiago is a prime non-tender candidate. But it probably depends upon how quickly we resolve the starting SS situation. If we are able to fill it quickly, Santiago is probably non-tendered. If we wait a while to see how the market plays out, we probably have to go to arbitration with Santiago as he is our fall back plan.

I mean, Santiago as a 4 year player projects to make between $1.3M+ in 2009. Look at the Comps:

Infante 3rd year $1.3M, 4th year $1.4M

Burke 3rd year $1M

Amezega 3rd year $1M

German 3rd year $1M

M Izturis 3rd year $1.2M

Betemit 3rd year $1.2M

Bruntlett 3rd year $0.6M

Miles 4th year $1.4M

Bautista 3rd year $1.8M

Santiago was underpaid at $0.6M last year, as compared to other of similar experience and stature. Easily he is going to double up on that this year. If we don't think he can start for us this year, we are better off finding a cheaper alternative and spending the savings on a starting SS, C or bullpen.

The unfortunate thing is that with Holliman out, we don't have a replacement for him on the 40 man, so non-tendering Santiago doesn't really free up a spot since we'd have to sign a replacement to the roster.

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I doubt Santiago will get non-tendered. I don't think that their budget is so tight that they are going to dump someone who was a useful bench player last year just to save a few hundred thousand.

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Hopefully we make Santiago a deal and he accepts it before the whole process but I dont see it happening.

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I doubt Santiago will get non-tendered. I don't think that their budget is so tight that they are going to dump someone who was a useful bench player last year just to save a few hundred thousand.

But it would potentially save $1M+, depending upon who they sign to replace him. It' not unrealistic to think they can get a utility player off the scrap heap for $400k/year. I think these kind of players are going to get squeezed this year, with payrolls declining. Santiago isn't worth the money, when you can get a comparable player at 70% less in salary.

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But it would potentially save $1M+, depending upon who they sign to replace him. It' not unrealistic to think they can get a utility player off the scrap heap for $400k/year. I think these kind of players are going to get squeezed this year, with payrolls declining. Santiago isn't worth the money, when you can get a comparable player at 70% less in salary.

I agree Santiago is probably not worth 1.4 million or anything in that neighborhood but I don't think one million means that much to them. If they need to spend another million to improve the team, then they'll do it. It does not seem as if the have operated on a strict budget in the past so I'm going to assume the same will be true this year until I see otherwise.

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I think you're right as Santiago also seems very much like a TEAM player, understanding and accepting his role. His attitude, work ethic and demeanor is conducive to being a dedicated blue collar worker.

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