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Eric Cioe

Best starter's arsenal?

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Yup.

Well I disagree. Everyone talks about the Maddux cutter and they are talking about the one that you call a sinker. I'm not saying he didn't also change his grip slightly and throw it more like a sinker, but i'm saying the lateral movement that he is famous for is considered a cutter as well. No hard feelings if it's just a word that is different in our discussion. I just don't think that Maddux's most famous pitch was gien or should be given quite the same designation as other "sinkers" that pitchers throw because the movement was different than almost anyone else was able to mimic in history.

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Well, we can disagree, but you're simply incorrect.

Here's what wikipedia says about Greg Maddux: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Maddux#Pitching_style

Here are the charts from his 2007 games: http://baseball.bornbybits.com/plots/Greg_Maddux.html

And his 2008 games: http://baseball.bornbybits.com/2008/Greg_Maddux.html

What do you know? 5% cutters, 70% sinkers. You're the only person on the planet who thinks that a cutter moves in on a righty.

EDIT - Here's a Sports Illustrated Scouting Report from 2008 citing "plus sink" on his fastball. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/05/12/scoutingreport.maddux/

And here's a scouting report from 1998 citing 2 and 4 seam fastballs. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/features/1998/weekly/981012/brave.html

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Well, we can disagree, but you're simply incorrect.

Here's what wikipedia says about Greg Maddux: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Maddux#Pitching_style

Here are the charts from his 2007 games: http://baseball.bornbybits.com/plots/Greg_Maddux.html

And his 2008 games: http://baseball.bornbybits.com/2008/Greg_Maddux.html

What do you know? 5% cutters, 70% sinkers. You're the only person on the planet who thinks that a cutter moves in on a righty.

EDIT - Here's a Sports Illustrated Scouting Report from 2008 citing "plus sink" on his fastball. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/05/12/scoutingreport.maddux/

And here's a scouting report from 1998 citing 2 and 4 seam fastballs. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/features/1998/weekly/981012/brave.html

You're a piece of work. Especially for a guy that probably got cut by Coach Devries as a Freshman.

I would be interested if maddux always considered his 2 seam fastball a "sinker" like you said or a "cutter" like i said or if he just threw a "2 seam" in his mind. Most of the links you posted said it was a 2 seam but you were definitely right in a couple as well. My point was there is no doubt he can throw a pitch that cuts in towards the righties and also one by changing the pressure on the same grip that has a more sinking fashion.

I will admit I'm wrong when I am, but I still don't think you have made a argument that holds enough weight when in reality he threw so many different variations of that same 2 seam fastball. In fact, i'd be willing to bet his signs were something like 1- 2seam 2, 4 seam, 3, change, 4, curve and he just made the ball "sink", "cut in to the righty", or "cut away from the righty" however he felt necessary himself.

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You're a piece of work. Especially for a guy that probably got cut by Coach Devries as a Freshman.

I have nothing to add in this conversation other than "Ha Ha Ha!" Mona Shores Baseball Rules!

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Most of the links you posted said it was a 2 seam but you were definitely right in a couple as well. My point was there is no doubt he can throw a pitch that cuts in towards the righties and also one by changing the pressure on the same grip that has a more sinking fashion.

"Cuts in towards righties" doesn't make sense. "Cut" means "goes away from a righty." "Fade" or "run" means "comes in on a righty."

Look at the movement charts I posted. It's plain to see that 70% of his pitches were in fastball-speed pitches that moved in on righties, not away from them. He threw a cutter, too, but it wasn't his bread and butter. Movement charts are kind of confusing to look at if you're not used to doing so, so if you need some explication or anything let me know and I'll do my best.

I will admit I'm wrong when I am

...

You're a piece of work. Especially for a guy that probably got cut by Coach Devries as a Freshman.

I'm a philosophy major, too. Maybe you can work that into your next post.

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You can go to draysbay.com to read that whole fangraphs article.

You can also go to fangraphs.com to read the article.:rambo:

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You're a piece of work. Especially for a guy that probably got cut by Coach Devries as a Freshman.

Eric probably reads books and stuff, too. That big nerd.

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You can also go to fangraphs.com to read the article.:rambo:

Yeah, but they've split it into parts. The whole thing as on drasybay.com was unsplit. I was just pointing out if you couldn't wait to see Part 2, that it was already posted someplace.

It's a pretty good series of articles, though. There was another, similar one on hardballtimes.com a while back about run expectancy on back to back pitches that was really interesting.*

*It's only interesting if you're a first-cut dweeb like me.

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Eric, I'm curious where you got all of this information. You have said yourself that you didn't follow baseball until 2007 but you write as if you are some kind of expert. That's a lot of information to digest in 2 years. Impressive.

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Eric, I'm curious where you got all of this information. You have said yourself that you didn't follow baseball until 2007 but you write as if you are some kind of expert. That's a lot of information to digest in 2 years. Impressive.

Oh, I don't claim much and am certainly no expert. I watch a lot of games during the season and watch a few old games during the offseason. I don't know squat about hitters or hitting because it doesn't interest me, but I've spent a good deal of time looking at pitch f/x charts, watching good pitchers pitch, and reading stuff from people who do know a lot about it. What knowledge I have is theoretical. I've always thrown baseballs but my control would make Dolsi look like a strike thrower. I never pitched or anything.

Basically, pitch f/x is pretty much where I learned how pitches moved, different pitchers' arsenals, and what certain pitchers throw in certain counts. I think it's really interesting.

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John Hiller once threw 16 change ups in a row

James Shields says that when he was struggling in the minors, he once threw 65 changeups of 85 total pitches.

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