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Detroit Tigers Hall of Fame - 2008 Veterans Committee Elections

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The names below represent pitchers and hitters who have qualified for the Veterans Committee ballot by appearing on at least four ballots in the regular 5-year & annual election cycles before being eliminated.

Pitchers

2008 Veterans Committee

[b]Player	        YR	From	To	W	L	WL%	ERA	G	GS	GF	CG	SHO	SV	IP	H	R	ER	HR	BB	SO	ERA+[/b]
[COLOR="Blue"]Al Benton 9 1938 1948 71 64 .526 3.46 296 126 111 47 8 45 1218.7 1207 576 468 77 500 510 121
Ed Siever 5 1901 1908 60 54 .526 2.61 143 123 19 93 11 2 1036.0 1070 460 301 15 207 303 121
Ed Summers 5 1908 1912 68 45 .602 2.42 138 112 22 79 9 3 999.0 930 404 269 19 221 362 111
Bobo Newsom 3 1939 1941 50 35 .588 3.59 114 101 10 53 8 4 760.3 722 350 303 48 322 503 132
Mark Fidrych 5 1976 1980 29 19 .604 3.10 58 56 2 34 5 0 412.3 397 163 142 23 99 170 126[/color]

Position Players

2008 Veterans Committee

[b]Player	        YR	From	To	G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	SB	CS	OPS+[/b]
[COLOR="Blue"]Mickey Stanley 15 1964 1978 1516 5022 641 1243 201 48 117 500 371 564 .248 .298 .377 44 23 90
Lu Blue 7 1921 1927 925 3394 669 1002 176 66 19 407 589 236 .295 .403 .403 85 56 110
Hoot Evers 9 1941 1954 769 2718 410 787 140 34 63 429 316 258 .290 .368 .436 35 31 113
Charlie Maxwell 8 1955 1962 853 2696 413 723 92 20 133 455 394 432 .268 .363 .465 15 6 121
Steve Kemp 5 1977 1981 684 2504 378 711 114 18 89 422 375 362 .284 .376 .450 24 16 125
Bob Fothergill 9 1922 1930 802 2444 381 823 182 47 26 447 152 138 .337 .379 .482 36 46 122
Darrell Evans 5 1984 1988 727 2349 357 559 72 1 141 405 437 433 .238 .357 .450 12 17 121
Jimmy Barrett 5 1901 1905 589 2259 383 660 59 30 10 174 309 0 .292 .382 .358 92 0 118
Johnny Bassler 7 1921 1927 767 2240 245 690 98 15 1 312 422 73 .308 .420 .367 10 6 106
Germany Schaefer5 1905 1909 626 2236 279 558 75 25 8 195 158 0 .250 .300 .316 123 0 94
Dick Wakefield 7 1941 1949 632 2128 334 624 102 29 56 314 358 268 .293 .396 .447 10 17 131
Heinie Manush 5 1923 1927 615 2099 385 674 124 42 38 345 149 129 .321 .379 .475 48 26 120
Jim Delahanty 4 1909 1912 375 1336 213 409 70 18 6 200 158 0 .306 .394 .399 48 0 129[/color]

Managers

2008 Veterans Committee

[b]Manager		YR	From	To	G	W	L	WP	BstFin	WstFin	PostSsn	Pennts	WrldSer[/b]
[color=blue]Del Baker 8 1933 1942 778 417 355 .540 1 5 1 1 0[/color]

Committee Members:

  • Voting Deadline - Friday, December 5th, 2008 at 12:00 PM (Noon)
  • Vote for up to 5 of the player nominees listed above (2008 Veterans Committee Pitchers and 2008 Veterans Committee Position Players).
  • Votes for non-players (managers, owners, presidents, broadcasters, etc.) do not count against your 5-vote limit.

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I'm bored as all get out and the Tigers just slipped into last place in the division. What better distraction from that dross than to admire the CV's of some of the all-time Tiger greats.

In the interest of not overwhelming DTroppens' PM inbox:

Do not submit any ballots to DTroppens before November 22nd.

Dave asked for a two-week voting window last year and this date preserves that. It also helps him not lose track of submitted ballots.

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I've been doing a Top 5 Tigers at each position at work for awhile and it's put a different perspective on some of these players for me. With each it's been a person that I've been back and forth with anyway, but a few months ago I was 100 percent happy if I didn't vote for any of these people. Now I'm thinking that a few may deserve to be in a bit more than I initially thought. But that said, it's hard for me to say YES too hard to any of them.

I'm going to clearly use the people I thought were the weakest in the HOF right now, look to see if I voted for them and then decide if I think that person deserves it. I'm also going to look at the depth of a position and the caliber of depth at that position. I'm not adding names just for the sake that we add someone this time. But I think there are people I am more serious about addressing now than I was two months ago.

People I'm looking at

Al Benton, Charlie Maxwell, Steve Kemp, Darrell Evans, Jimmy Barrett

I bet I end up voting for two of those names max.

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I'm definitely voting for Benton, Maxwell, and Barrett. EDIT - not voting for Baker.

The rest will require some good sales pitches (Kemp/Evans are near miss).

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I was hyping Benton early on, but after looking at it, I'm not sure he didn't pad his stats against some war depleted opponents.

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I'm definitely voting for Benton, Maxwell, and Barrett. Also Del Baker.

The rest will require some good sales pitches (Kemp/Evans are near miss).

DaYooper,

I have voted for Del Baker in the past as well. I probably will again.

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I am more than willing to listen to any sales pitches on anyone. We deserve every single one of these candidates that.

All these people will be based not just on the people they are competing against here, but they also must meet the criteria they had to against the people they battled against that are already in. For me it's important I do that. I am not looking to put in five votes (or even just three votes) for the best of what's here. I think doing that will do a disservice to the people already in the HOF.

If it was someone I thought of voting for initially or did vote for at one time, then that's what they are going to need to probably get my vote. If they did, then in some respects they already showed me that they deserve to be among that HOF class. But I'm certainly not going to be voting for who I consider the five best in this group because I think they are the five best. The field is watered down now and I think it's important (at least for me) to remember that when making decisions. These aren't the best. These are the best of the rest - unless of course you thought they deserved to be among the best initially.

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I will not vote for Del Baker until Steve O'Neill is voted in.

It's so hard to say if a manager had an impact one way or the other. My theory on it has been give them the benefit of the doubt and vote for them if it seemed the team performed well when they were manager. So that means WSeries managers have been getting votes from me.

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If people get a chance I'd suggest going through the HOF and just glancing through the names. I did this about a month ago and it was pretty fun doing so. Pictures bring up "battles" you may have had for certain people. And seeing them gives you a sense of what it has taken to get there. Sit back for 15 to 30 minutes and look back at the work you put in doing this so far. It's well worth it.

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I will not vote for Del Baker until Steve O'Neill is voted in.
Thanks for correcting a complete brain fart, I actually meant O'Neill when I typed Baker. I'm much higher on O'Neill as well.

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I was hyping Benton early on, but after looking at it, I'm not sure he didn't pad his stats against some war depleted opponents.
That has given me some pause in evaluating Benton as well. But you could say the same thing about a lot of guys, like Newhouser. I'm assuming Newhouser had far better stats than Benton during that time.

But can you effectively measure to what degree the talent pool was depleted each season? Has that been studied anywhere?

I would be comfortable with Maxwell and Barrett getting in before Benton does.

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That has given me some pause in evaluating Benton as well. But you could say the same thing about a lot of guys, like Newhouser. I'm assuming Newhouser had far better stats than Benton during that time.

But can you effectively measure to what degree the talent pool was depleted each season? Has that been studied anywhere?

I would be comfortable with Maxwell and Barrett getting in before Benton does.

I don't know where they are but I've tripped on info things about how many players were gone out of baseball after the war years. But the issue I've had with things like that I've seen is those things never put it in context with any other era. They say X players were out of MLB by this date, but I don't know if I looked at 1950 to 1955 what the statistic is. I d

I figure a guy was playing MLB ball, he was in the majors. I know it was weaker during the war era, but was that the player's fault? He can only play in the field that was created for him.

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Hey Yoop and Trop, help me out if you will. I understand that Evans has far more years and you may like home runs and rbi's better than other numbers where Heinie shows better, but what am I missing about Barrett that makes him better than Heinie? Looks to me like Heinie should be ahead of both. Just from the numbers here, Heinie did more with less ABs than Barrett. Man was at the start of his career and the team traded him away, otherwise he would have had more years. Sorry if I am too lazy to look back at the old threads. Thanks. (Vote Heinie, vote often!).

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Hey Yoop and Trop, help me out if you will. I understand that Evans has far more years and you may like home runs and rbi's better than other numbers where Heinie shows better, but what am I missing about Barrett that makes him better than Heinie? Looks to me like Heinie should be ahead of both. Just from the numbers here, Heinie did more with less ABs than Barrett. Man was at the start of his career and the team traded him away, otherwise he would have had more years. Sorry if I am too lazy to look back at the old threads. Thanks. (Vote Heinie, vote often!).

I go by the four-year rule. You have four good years as a member and that's enough longevity I need. Jimmy Barrett was one of the top offensive hitters in the AL when he was with the Tigers. Of his four full seasons, all were pretty good seasons with 02 and 03 seasons being outstanding.

Manush - has five years, but he didn't even post full-time regular numbers until his last two years. Go by the batting average qualifying standards they have now to post a regular - actually I'll go down to *3 PAs giving some benefit for possible injuries hurting his chances of doing so.

465 PA qualif - he has 358, 468 PA qualif - he has 485, 468 PA qualif - he has 312.

I don't think you can even qualify him as a true starter for two of those three seasons. And the one you can, he didn't even get to 500 PAs, kind of a number I think most of us think as being a true starter.

He had an outstanding year in 1926. There's no doubt to that. But his 1927 season isn't anything special. It's good, but not special.

So I look at Manush and see this -

Great rookie year followed by two solid seasons that he truly didn't log starter's numbers, a flat out outstanding season and then another solid season that he truly did post starter numbers. That's not HOF in my opinion. He may have been one season off - or no more than two. If those next two seasons happened as a Tiger, he would've probably been a guy I would've made a lock, but they didn't happen here. And I can't count them because of that. He's a HOFer, but I don't think he was a HOFer as a Tiger. He was a good player that had one flat out superstar year with a bunch of pretty decent ones around it.

About Barrett - I've bounced back and forth. I think the first ballots I was probably crying he's nearly a lock. Now, I've softened on that. But that said, I still think he's the better candidate of these two you ask us to compare.

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Good feedback. One factor not considered is that Heinie had to break into a darn good outfield to get playing time. Heinie probably hurts Barrett's case in that Heinie takes the comparison when comparing only total numbers from their years with the Tigers. Perhaps Barrett really defines the gray line and Heinie is about the same shade. Then the question is whether that is enough to get in. Thanks for the info and always keep heinie in mind!

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I don't take into account having to break in this or that. You can. You run into that with Bob Fothergill (of course same era) as well.

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Agreed with Dave's comments. You really have to take the eras into account as well. Barrett played in the dead ball times, and with him I try to measure him against the rest of the league. Jimmy was clearly the top centerfielder of his time. If he had just a couple more years in Detroit he would have been a real slam dunk. He just has enough quality years to merit HOF in my book.

Evans I have as a very narrow miss currently, but I'm open to discussing him further.

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This is going to be here before we all know it. I think the problem here is we all have pretty strong ideas on each candidate already and it makes it tough to want to post pros or cons. We've seen them already.

I'll try something here. I'm going to name a person and let people post the pros and cons of his possible election.

Charlie Maxwell

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Someone said that all of the players deserved to have discussion thrown out there. Okay, I will play the devils advocate and throw out a name.

Mark Fidrych.

I probably will not vote for him. His numbers are great, but when you break it down by year, he only pitched full time for two of those five years, three of those years were the only ones he did well stat wise, and pretty much stunk the last two years.

Now I remember getting into quite a discussion about the Bird when the MTS morons had their get together in May a couple years ago at Mr and Mrs MelissaG's place and back then had decided that I would give him a little more thought. I likely will not vote for him because I have made a standard for myself to have the player have more than three strong years as a Tiger and for that, Fidrych does not qualify. Those last three years really disqualify him in my mind as well.

On the other hand, it is not his fault that his throwing arm was injured. He was doing everything he was asked to do. I look at his pitching stats and his accomplishments for the first two years and especially for 1976, and this man blows me away. For that 1976 season, he was the Tigers----in many ways, that year he WAS baseball. There is a small part of me that still has a hard time dismissing that. Again, in the end, I doubt I would vote for him, but am willing to be talked into doing so (for any of the players)

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I want to vote for the Bird, but for similar reasons (lack of longevity)

there's no way I can pull that lever.

Charlie Maxwell's resume:

All Star in 1956 and 1957, probably deserved selection in 1959.

1956 - ranked 4th in A.L. in runs and batting with .326

56 & 57:

- ranked 5th and 8th in OBP

- ranked 3rd and 6th in SLG

- ranked 4th and 6th in OPS

- ranked 5th and 7th in runs created

1956 - ranked 5th in home runs

1957 - ranked 7th in home runs

1959 - ranked 4th in home runs and at-bats per HR

1960 - ranked 9th in home runs

57 & 59 - ranked 6th and 7th in walks

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I'm burning up all five player votes and Maxwell is almost there. I'm leaning towards him but he's probably still #6 for me.

Al Benton needs to be in.

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