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Amir Johnson = Rodman, or Salley, or...?

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Just asking.

If he never develops a strong offensive game... then I think he becomes a Salley/ Rodman-type... high energy, rebounds and blocked shots, defense... I think he's already just about there...

So the question is... does he get to their level, compare to them, or exceed their level; and if so (exceeds them), who would he compare to?

It might be a bit early to have any idea... but I thought I would just ask the question to see where everyone's opinion is at...

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I assume you're asking if he's basically gonna become a solid, off the bench role player but that really wasn't what Rodman was so I'm not sure. Rodman and Salley are not in the same class of player really. I mean, Rodman's a future HOF'er(when is he eligible btw...it's been 8 years since he last played in the NBA).

I don't really know what Amir's going to be. He's only 20 and certainly has the ability to become a much more well rounded player than Rodman was, and has the potential to be a better player then Salley was. But who knows really at this point. It's an interesting discussion I suppose, but it's crazy premature to decide what a 20 year old kid who's averaging 10 mins a game is going to do for the rest of his career. heck, who even knows if he's gonna stick for a 15 year career the way those guys did.

My personal opinion though, since you ask, is he'll be a poor man's version of Amare Stoudamire. 12-15ppg 7-10 rpg 2 bpg game, but that's' probably the homer in me talking.

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Just another note about Rodman...he is pretty much the best role player to ever play the game in my opinion. There are very few players who are willing to tailor their game to defense and rebounding the way that he did, and even fewer who succeed at becoming as ridiculously good as Worm did. Ben Wallace is the only other player that comes to mind and Ben didn't do it as well or for as long as Dennis did. It's a real shame that he was such a nutball, because if he wasn't he'd be much much more highly thought of in the annals of the NBA.

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I got this from this years candidate announcement:

Ewing, Olajuwon and Riley are Finalists in their first year of consideration by their respective Screening Committees.

Last season for both were 01-02 so I'm guessing you need to be retired 5 years. I highly doubt Rodman will ever get in. He was a very one dimensional player and sadly, his dimension doesn't get credit for winning games as much as the offense does. Plus, he had a very ordinary college career at a very bad college (don't forget, this isn't the NBA hall of fame, its the basketball hof).

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I believe Amir will develop into a more offensively gifted player than either Salley or Rodman. I think he can become a better rebounder and shot blocker as well. He probably will not average as many rebounds as Rodman because that was all Rodman focused on for the most part. I just hope Amir doesn't end up going nuts like Rodman did.

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I sure hope he develops into a better player than John Salley. Salley usually shot about 55% from the field, but they were all dunks. No one ever had a worse dunk percentage than Salley.

I'll wait before I claim what type of player Johnson will be. He's still only 20.

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I got this from this years candidate announcement:

Last season for both were 01-02 so I'm guessing you need to be retired 5 years. I highly doubt Rodman will ever get in. He was a very one dimensional player and sadly, his dimension doesn't get credit for winning games as much as the offense does. Plus, he had a very ordinary college career at a very bad college (don't forget, this isn't the NBA hall of fame, its the basketball hof).

that's a travesty, IMO.

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that's a travesty, IMO.

Yeah, I'm not sure I would vote him in, but I can see your argument for wanting him in.

As far as Amir goes, I think he has the highest potential out of all our young kids. He is only 20 and has zero college experience. Much like the other kids, a half season isn't enough to tell anything though. They all seem to have some potential, but if they reach it and carve out a NBA career remains to be seen.

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speak of the devil....sorry that I'm jacking this thread.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/11/sports/basketball/11rodman.html?_r=1&ref=basketball&oref=slogin

Dennis Rodman has played a lot of roles in his lifetime. He has twice been an N.B.A. All-Star and defensive player of the year. He has also been a bridegroom and a bride, a father and a surrogate son. He has been an author, an actor, a corporate spokesman and a full-time enigma.

Dennis Rodman disputing a call. In a 14-year career, he was a top rebounder and defender.

Rodman, 45, who won five championships during a tumultuous 14-year N.B.A. career filled with as much controversy as glory, would like to add another title to his lengthy résumé: Hall of Famer.

“Getting into the Hall of Fame would be something very special,” Rodman said recently over lunch in Times Square. “I don’t think it would mean as much to me as it would to all the people who brought me up, like my mother, my college coaches and Chuck Daly and Phil Jackson, who were both like a father to me. It would also mean the world to my wife and children.”

One of the greatest rebounders in N.B.A. history, Rodman retired after playing 12 games for the Dallas Mavericks in the 1999-2000 season. In his prime, he won two championships with Daly’s Detroit Pistons (1989 and ’90) and three more with Jackson’s Chicago Bulls (1996-98).

But what Rodman accomplished on the court, including his seven rebounding titles and his seven-time selection as an N.B.A. all-defensive first-team player, was often overshadowed by his antics. The 6-foot-7, 228-pound Rodman had a nose ring for the ball, a pierced navel and a bleached head that was not always in the game.

The list of Rodman’s disciplinary problems is almost as long as the wingspan that helped him soar for 11,954 regular-season rebounds. As a result, Rodman and his marketing agent, Darren Prince, say that the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame is keeping its distance.

“Dennis has been out of the N.B.A. for at least five years, and yet the Hall of Fame has not contacted him about being nominated,” said Prince, who is based in West Orange, N.J. “Dennis should be eligible this year.”

In lobbying for Rodman, Prince contacted John Doleva, the president and chief executive of the Hall of Fame in Springfield, Mass. In a letter to Prince, Doleva said that Rodman was not eligible to be nominated because he had played professionally since retiring from the N.B.A. In the past six years, Rodman, still muscular, still covered in piercings and tattoos, played in the new American Basketball Association, the International Basketball League, Finland, Britain and Mexico.

Doleva wrote to Prince, “The clock really has not ‘started ticking’ towards his five-year retirement eligibility requirement and cannot until he is fully finished with professional paid basketball.”

Doleva added that “the clock had to be reset when both Earvin Johnson and Michael Jordan returned to the court professionally” after they retired.

No such clock exists for coaches.

Prince asked why the Hall was holding the A.B.A. and leagues abroad against Rodman.

Doleva replied, “Professional basketball is not defined specifically as the N.B.A.”

Though Rodman will eventually be nominated to the Hall of Fame, he is not sure if he will be elected. His lifestyle aside, there is another obstacle for him to clear on the path to Springfield. A power forward whose strength was defense, he averaged only 7.3 points a game.

“Was Bill Russell too one-dimensional?” Rodman said. “Russell wasn’t a scorer, but he won 11 championships with Boston and led those teams by averaging over 20 rebounds a game, which is unheard of.” (For the record, Russell averaged 15.1 points in his 13-year N.B.A. career.)

Rodman, who lives in Newport Beach, Calif., measured his qualifications against contemporaries like Charles Barkley (inducted into the Hall last year), Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone and John Stockton.

“They were all great players, but they never won a championship,” Rodman said. “So what’s the criteria here? Barkley was judged on the impact he had on the game, and so will the others. So if you’re going to judge me for the Hall, judge me the same way, for what I brought to the table in terms of basketball, and forget all the other stuff.”

Scottie Pippen, a teammate of Rodman’s during three championship seasons with the Bulls, said that casting a Hall of Fame vote for Rodman would be a no-brainer.

“The Hall of Fame is not built on offense, it’s built on greatness, and Dennis was one of the greatest I’ve ever played with,” Pippen said. “Maybe you could have made the argument before he joined the Bulls that he didn’t have the credentials. But with our team, night in and night out, he proved his greatness, and now his credentials speak for itself. In my mind, he’s a first-ballot Hall of Famer.”

Knicks Coach Isiah Thomas, who played with Rodman on two Detroit championship teams, agreed. “There is no question in my mind that Dennis belongs in the Hall of Fame,” Thomas said. “He was a member of five N.B.A. championship teams and an important element of the two most dominant teams of that era. He gave credibility to being a rebounder. He made it a job, that before him, no one really wanted.”

Rodman, a little-known player out of Southeastern Oklahoma State, began appearing on N.B.A. radar screens after strong predraft workouts in 1986, the year the Pistons selected him in the second round of the draft, 27th over all.

He soon became a defensive dynamo and household name, making headlines with a rugged, no-holds-barred rebounding style that made him the baddest of the bad-boy Pistons on a team that also starred Thomas, Joe Dumars and Bill Laimbeer.

But Rodman’s temper, his penchant for partying and his unwillingness to adhere to team rules eventually cast him more in the role of Dennis the Menace.

During his N.B.A. career, he dated Madonna and married Carmen Electra. He separated his shoulder in a motorcycle accident, kicked a cameraman during a nationally televised game and dressed in a bridal gown to promote his first book. He was arrested twice in 1999, once in a squabble with Electra — they soon divorced — in Miami Beach, where he was filming the movie “Cut Away,” and again for disturbing the peace in Newport Beach.

He head-butted a referee, berated officials, threw objects on the court, received numerous suspensions and fines and once said that Larry Bird would be just another player if he weren’t white.

The Hall of Famer Kareem Abdul-Jabbar said that Rodman’s bizarre behavior and eligibility should be viewed as separate issues.

“What he did on the basketball court qualifies him to be in the Hall of Fame,” said Abdul-Jabbar, who had 38,387 career points, more than any other N.B.A. player. “All the flamboyant off-the-court stuff is another story. Look at the facts: He was an integral player on a number of championship teams. When he left Detroit for Chicago, the Pistons stopped winning.

“When you add it all up,” Abdul-Jabbar said, “Rodman absolutely deserves to be in the Hall.”

Rodman has two children with his third wife, Michelle; they live separately in Newport Beach. He makes a living these days as a spokesman for Golden Palace.com, an Internet casino, and the Von Dutch watch company in Los Angeles. He also has licensing deals with Adidas, Upper Deck and Topps; owns a nightclub called Rodman’s Rehab in Fort Lauderdale, Fla.; and is paid to make appearances and to play party host.

On Friday, Rodman’s television show, “Geek to Freak,” will be on HDNet, the TV network whose co-founder is Mark Cuban, owner of the Dallas Mavericks.

The next day, Rodman will suit up with former N.B.A. players for an exhibition against the Harlem Globetrotters in Las Vegas, where the N.B.A. All-Star Game will be played next Sunday.

“I consider myself a lucky guy,” Rodman said. “One of the things I’m most looking forward to is how I will dress on the day I make my Hall of Fame acceptance speech. But if it never happens, I’ll still be Dennis Rodman, and I’ll be more than satisfied with all of my championship rings and all the great memories that went with it.”

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Plus, he had a very ordinary college career at a very bad college (don't forget, this isn't the NBA hall of fame, its the basketball hof).

Yes, he went to a bad college but 25.6 ppg and 15.2 rpg over 4 years is hardly "very ordinary".

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Yes, he went to a bad college but 25.6 ppg and 15.2 rpg over 4 years is hardly "very ordinary".

Its very ordinary when you adjust it for the talent he faced. A future NBA player dominating a bunch of future nobodies, very ordinary.

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I have to agree, it's not ordinary by any stretch. Should he have averaged 50 and 20 in order to not be average then? Did Stuckey have an average college career too then? NBA teams may not have valued his college career as meaning much, but clearly they were wrong as he then proceeded to be the most dominant rebounder in the league for about 10 years at 6'8".

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I have to agree, it's not ordinary by any stretch. Should he have averaged 50 and 20 in order to not be average then? Did Stuckey have an average college career too then? NBA teams may not have valued his college career as meaning much, but clearly they were wrong as he then proceeded to be the most dominant rebounder in the league for about 10 years at 6'8".

Someone with marginal offensive ability would average 50, yes. If Jordan went to the D league and averaged 25, would you say that isn't ordinary? You have to judge the results based on the talent they face. You are simply looking at numbers and judging on that.

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Rodman was a fantastic player....capable of dominating games with defense and rebounding...he belongs in the Hall.

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Rodman was a fantastic player....capable of dominating games with defense and rebounding...he belongs in the Hall.

His defense at the start of his career was great. After that it was mostly based on reputation. His defense really fell off as he seemed to only really worry about rebounding.

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I'm judging on the fact that you can only do so much in a game. 25ppg OVER 4 YEARS is very good and 15 rpg is terrific. Despite never playing high school ball, he was an NAIA All-American all 3 years he played, led the league in rebounding 2 years. For a guy who wasn't an offensive power, whose abilities aimed more at rebounding and defense...the skills that would warrant his election to the HOF if he got in...he still managed a butt load of points per game. Sorry dude, there was nothing average about his college career. He played where he could play since he didn't play in high school, and at that level he was a dominating player from day one.

And no, Jordan wouldn't have averaged 50 ppg, probably closer to 35 no doubt(he only averaged 17ppg in college), but Jordan was the best player ever and was a scorer and he probably wouldn't have averaged double figures in rebounding.

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I'm judging on the fact that you can only do so much in a game. 25ppg OVER 4 YEARS is very good and 15 rpg is terrific. Despite never playing high school ball, he was an NAIA All-American all 3 years he played, led the league in rebounding 2 years. For a guy who wasn't an offensive power, whose abilities aimed more at rebounding and defense...the skills that would warrant his election to the HOF if he got in...he still managed a butt load of points per game. Sorry dude, there was nothing average about his college career. He played where he could play since he didn't play in high school, and at that level he was a dominating player from day one.

And no, Jordan wouldn't have averaged 50 ppg, probably closer to 35 no doubt(he only averaged 17ppg in college), but Jordan was the best player ever and was a scorer and he probably wouldn't have averaged double figures in rebounding.

He was also 3-4 years older then the kids he was playing against. At 22 you are much more physically mature then you are at 18.

Just a little tip to help your argument. He only played 3 years of college ball.

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Those stats aren't ordinary. Regardless of the level most coaches aren't going to "allow" their players to average 40 points a game no matter what the player's talent.

Do a search on Division 3 All-Americans. Pick the first teamers. These guys can play. Some probably fell through the cracks or wanted to go to smaller private schools for (do I dare say) academic reasons. It does happen. You will find them averaging in the 20s. None of them average 35 points a game. That just doesn't happen.

Michael Jordan didn't average 20 points a game in college. And even though he played at North Carolina in a darn good conference (back then the ACC and the Big East battled for the top spot it seemed annually) yet he averaged "just" 17 points a game his senior year. You could argue based on what he did in his pro career immediately that those numbers very average.

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NBA players with "marginal offensive ability" who played NAIA ball

Scottie Pippen averaged 17 ppg

Terry Porter averaged 13 ppg

In games where final scores tend to be 75-70, players don't average 50 ppg.

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Those stats aren't ordinary. Regardless of the level most coaches aren't going to "allow" their players to average 40 points a game no matter what the player's talent.

Do a search on Division 3 All-Americans. Pick the first teamers. These guys can play. Some probably fell through the cracks or wanted to go to smaller private schools for (do I dare say) academic reasons. It does happen. You will find them averaging in the 20s. None of them average 35 points a game. That just doesn't happen.

Michael Jordan didn't average 20 points a game in college. And even though he played at North Carolina in a darn good conference (back then the ACC and the Big East battled for the top spot it seemed annually) yet he averaged "just" 17 points a game his senior year. You could argue based on what he did in his pro career immediately that those numbers very average.

First off, Jordan didn't have a senior year.

Second, he also played with some other very highly skilled players. People who could also score and took shots away from Jordan.

Third, he played against much better competition then someone did in NAIA. Go drop a 20 year old Jordan into a NAIA school and see what happens. His numbers instantly double, at least.

Finally, Rodman was 4 years older then the kids he was playing against. Also, playing at the NAIA level he was playing against 6'4 PF's and 6'5 Centers. He was a man, they were kids. I'm sorry, building your stats against sub par competition will never impress me no matter how high the numbers are.

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Jordan would've averaged no more than 30 points at any level.

I assume you are excluding the 7 seasons he did it in the NBA?

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D,

Okay, his junior year or whatever it was.

The fact is most coaches aren't going to allow specific players to drop 35 points a game regardless their skill or the level of the players around him. It just doesn't happen. It certainly is the exception rather than the rule.

Check those D3 All-Americans when you get a chance. And NAIA - while not D1 or even D2, there are scholarships at that level. Some players that can't get into an NCAA school with tons of talent go to NAIA schools. Sometimes there are some very good players at that level.

Here's a list of players that have played at the NAIA level.

http://naia.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/091005aaa.html

I'm not saying it's a ton, but I'm guessing the list is larger than you expect. There are some good players here and it looks like none of them ever averaged 40 points a game for their career. Why do I think this? Becuase the NAIA average for the highest scoring player in an NAIA averaged "just" 40.8 points a game. The second best player falls down to 37.6 points.

Darn it, I lost the address going back and forth too much. Do a search on NAIA individual scoring leaders and you'll find where I got those averages. There was a guy with a large average but only played 12 games or something like that. Generally these guys logged high averages with a lot of games. They are pretty accurate of what the maximum for any player playing on a team with any sort of team system could expect regardless of the talent level of that individual player. Now if Jordan wanted to go out there and splash for 60 a night, he probably could've. But most programs aren't going to let you do that. In fact history suggests no one will let you do that.

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D,

We were talking college here. You knew that. The fact you are trying to be "smart" here proves you are running out of ammo.

Why don't you find examples of what you are trying to talk about that prove your case? Probably because it isn't easy to do that. And really I'm not trying to take a side here. Just stating how it is.

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D,

Okay, his junior year or whatever it was.

The fact is most coaches aren't going to allow specific players to drop 35 points a game regardless their skill or the level of the players around him. It just doesn't happen. It certainly is the exception rather than the rule.

Check those D3 All-Americans when you get a chance. And NAIA - while not D1 or even D2, there are scholarships at that level. Some players that can't get into an NCAA school with tons of talent go to NAIA schools. Sometimes there are some very good players at that level.

Here's a list of players that have played at the NAIA level.

http://naia.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/091005aaa.html

I'm not saying it's a ton, but I'm guessing the list is larger than you expect. There are some good players here and it looks like none of them ever averaged 40 points a game for their career. Why do I think this? Becuase the NAIA average for the highest scoring player in an NAIA averaged "just" 40.8 points a game. The second best player falls down to 37.6 points.

Darn it, I lost the address going back and forth too much. Do a search on NAIA individual scoring leaders and you'll find where I got those averages. There was a guy with a large average but only played 12 games or something like that. Generally these guys logged high averages with a lot of games. They are pretty accurate of what the maximum for any player playing on a team with any sort of team system could expect regardless of the talent level of that individual player. Now if Jordan wanted to go out there and splash for 60 a night, he probably could've. But most programs aren't going to let you do that. In fact history suggests no one will let you do that.

Answer me one question. If you honestly say yes, I will concede the argument.

If you put Rodman in the ACC or any other power conference back then, does he average 15 points a game for a 3 year career?

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