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2007 Hot Stove League

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EDIT: Well... if I really wanna make this an offseason Hot Stove League thread... I better put a couple links in here...

Two of my favorites:

ProSportsDaily MLB Rumors: http://www.prosportsdaily.com/mlb/mlb-rumors.html

Ben Maller's MLB Rumors (at FoxSports): http://msn.foxsports.com/rumors/mlb

I know (2) dozen threads are going to be popping up about trades, FA's etc... Over and above the 2 dozen that have already been started... :grin:

But I was thinking that maybe we could have 1 thread where everything is compiled - similar to our Amateur Draft threads and Offseason Minor League News threads, Trade Deadline threads, etc...

So any rumors involving the Tigers, Free Agent rumors involving the Tigs, trade ideas I or anyone else wish to propose, etc... Hopefully could be placed in here...

Even though I know there will still be separate threads for any significant news items that occur in the offseason... Thought I'd give it a try.

I'm going to start this thread off by stating the obvious:

1) We have two positions of need in the field we're looking to fill over the offseason, 3 if the team doesn't trigger Pudge's option (but we don't have to deal with that just quite yet... IMO we offer $5 mill for another year, to make it a 2-year $18 mill contract instead of 1 @ $13 mill... and hope he does better than in '07...); OTHERWISE: Left Field, and SS.

2) We could use a good Left-Handed bat, somewhere, for better lineup balance.

3) If Kenny Rogers re-signs, we prolly can go with JV, Kenny, Bondo, Nate, and fill-in-the-blank-5th-spot-in-the-rotation with 1 of Miner, Jurrjens, Miller (doubtful... needs another year in the minors, at least as it appears right now...), or even Durbin, in a pinch. If Rogers DOESN'T re-sign... than we have an open spot in the rotation.

4) If the team re-signs Todd Jones for a year, to close and transition Zoom to closer, our BP is prolly set. If we don't re-sign him, we are prolly looking for 1 veteran BP arm, closer OR setup guy...

5) Free agents are cheaper to obtain than trades ($$$-only instead of giving up prospects and $$$), although a type-A free agent will cost a 1st-rounder; BUT, better players will probably be available by trade instead of by free agency. So... DD will have to decide between the two.

BOTTOM LINE: I think we end up with Pudge, Kenny, and Todd Jones back on the team in 2008, so we are looking to fill just the two positions in LF and SS, however that will work out. So... that's where I'm going to start:

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PS: one more obvious:

6) We're not getting A-Rod.

I would love to get A-Rod. I think we can afford A-Rod, based on reducing payroll in other areas (although I certainly don't set the team's spending cap, Ilitch does). And that is where the line has been drawn. Ilitch has already SPECIFICALLY said he won't go down that path.

Nix to A-Rod.

Because Ilitch said so.

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So... ignoring free agents for the moment... and looking for players that may be more costly (in terms of losing prospects), I am going to start with the obvious: Bottom-feeders and/or small-market/ small-budget teams who continually trade-off their expensive veterans for prospects. And I'll offer a trade or two based on this theory...

And who fits these teams better than the Pirates, Marlins, and Twins?!?!?!?!

I'll start with the Marlins, who may be looking to either: add veteran pitching to steady their rotation and make another run at a World Series, or, lose some payroll because that's what Loria demands, OR, both.

Here's a Miami Herald article - paraphrased - stating basically the same:

Link: http://www.miamiherald.com/591/story/257394.html

Winter slumber unlikely for Marlins

Posted on Tue, Oct. 02, 2007Digg del.icio.us AIM reprint print email

BY CLARK SPENCER

cspencer@MiamiHerald.com

The numbers that buried the Marlins, the ones that landed them in the division cellar, were these: 891 and 98. The first number represents the runs scored by their opponents. The second number represents the runs the Marlins gave away because of errors.

No National League club gave up more runs, or handed away more with defensive mistakes. That's why the front office intends to focus its attention this winter on improving starting pitching and defense, the team's two greatest weaknesses in 2007.

''We need to defend better and pitch better, and those will be the primary offseason goals,'' said Larry Beinfest, the Marlins' president of baseball operations. ``We did not win because we did not pitch well enough, so that's the bottom line.''

The nucleus of the Marlins has remained relatively unchanged since Beinfest and Co. conducted a massive overhaul, trading away frontline veterans for a collection of raw rookies.

As the Marlins head into Year 3 of the rebuilding project, they're likely to make significant changes that potentially could include trading Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis.

''We can't sit here and not be active given that we were last in the league in defense and pitching,'' Beinfest said. ``I would anticipate we would be more active than we were a year ago.''

With that in mind, here are five reasons to think the Marlins can become a contender again, and five concerns that could stop them dead in their tracks.

5 Reasons for Hope

1. In the National League, ....The Marlins don't have to get that much better to position themselves in a contending spot.

2. For all of their other issues (see below), the Marlins don't suffer from lack of scoring, ...putting runs on the board is the least of their worries.

3. They have done it before. It's hard to say how many times history can continue repeating itself. But the Marlins have risen from the ashes twice before to win World Series titles...

4. They have star power. Miguel Cabrera and Hanley Ramirez, above, might very well rank among the top-10 players in the game, and both are young. Cabrera is 24 and Ramirez is 23. They are nowhere near their peak years and, yet, already possess the skills of top veterans. Ramirez remains inexpensive to the Marlins. But Cabrera does not, and the Marlins could turn him into shark meat, dangling him on a hook to see if it would lure top prospects who could help them in other areas.

5. It can't get any worse. Can it? The Marlins took a step back, in great part because of pitching injuries that left the rotation in shambles. But the Marlins' young players are maturing with experience, and some, such as Jeremy Hermida, appear to be ripening with age. The bullpen doesn't need retooling for the first time in years.

5 Reasons for Concern

1. The mantra when the Marlins won the 2003 World Series was ''pitching, speed and defense.'' Funny how in four short years it all got turned upside down. ...

2. Starting pitching was a shipwreck all season with injuries (Josh Johnson, Anibal Sanchez and Ricky Nolasco) ...Johnson (Tommy John surgery) is out for next year, Sanchez might not be ready for spring training, Willis could be traded and Olsen might be pushed to keep his spot in the rotation. Rick VandenHurk should contend for one of the five spots.

3. Remember the Marlins' infield of Derrek Lee at first base, Luis Castillo at second, Alex Gonzalez at shortstop and Mike Lowell at third base? Three of them won the Gold Glove and the fourth -- Gonzalez -- ranked with the elite. The 2003 Marlins made 75 errors. This year's Marlins? A whopping 137. No team stunk up the field more than Florida and, unless major work is done, it's hard to see how the defense will improve much.

4. Manager Fredi Gonzalez could be firmer with players and get in their faces a little more often. But it would help if the front office would sprinkle the roster with a few more veterans to police the clubhouse. ...

5. It's unknown whether owner Jeffrey Loria will authorize increased spending to bring the Marlins' $30 million payroll more in line with the rest of the league. After two years of austerity, it's probably time to start raising the bar. ...

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I know (2) dozen threads are going to be popping up about trades, FA's etc... Over and above the 2 dozen that have already been started... :grin:

But I was thinking that maybe we could have 1 thread where everything is compiled - similar to our Amateur Draft threads and Offseason Minor League News threads, Trade Deadline threads, etc...

So any rumors involving the Tigers, Free Agent rumors involving the Tigs, trade ideas I or anyone else wish to propose, etc... Hopefully could be placed in here...

Even though I know there will still be separate threads for any significant news items that occur in the offseason... Thought I'd give it a try.

I'm going to start this thread off by stating the obvious:

1) We have two positions of need in the field we're looking to fill over the offseason, 3 if the team doesn't trigger Pudge's option (but we don't have to deal with that just quite yet... IMO we offer $5 mill for another year, to make it a 2-year $18 mill contract instead of 1 @ $13 mill... and hope he does better than in '07...); OTHERWISE: Left Field, and SS.

2) We could use a good Left-Handed bat, somewhere, for better lineup balance.

3) If Kenny Rogers re-signs, we prolly can go with JV, Kenny, Bondo, Nate, and fill-in-the-blank-5th-spot-in-the-rotation with 1 of Miner, Jurrjens, Miller (doubtful... needs another year in the minors, at least as it appears right now...), or even Durbin, in a pinch. If Rogers DOESN'T re-sign... than we have an open spot in the rotation.

4) If the team re-signs Todd Jones for a year, to close and transition Zoom to closer, our BP is prolly set. If we don't re-sign him, we are prolly looking for 1 veteran BP arm, closer OR setup guy...

5) Free agents are cheaper to obtain than trades ($$$-only instead of giving up prospects and $$$), although a type-A free agent will cost a 1st-rounder; BUT, better players will probably be available by trade instead of by free agency. So... DD will have to decide between the two.

BOTTOM LINE: I think we end up with Pudge, Kenny, and Todd Jones back on the team in 2008, so we are looking to fill just the two positions in LF and SS, however that will work out. So... that's where I'm going to start:

We really have 4 holes in the lineup offensively. I would add 3B to the list of possible positions to upgrade. After last years problems in BP I would like to see 1 or 2 arms added even if Rogers and Jones do resign, more if they don't.

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So I'm going to propose a few different ideas with the Marlins, who:

Would like to improve their defense (infield especially), veteran leadership, rotation stability, and possibly their payroll costs (they could both allow a higher payroll AND shed players/payroll at the same time... if that's what they need to do to make team improvements...).

It looks like Willis and Cabrera would be candidates for trades, as well as Uggla (saw this somewhere else, forgot where) as they think he'd get them a nice return, they don't necessarily need his power, and they might have a different plan for 2nd base (forgot what it said exactly)... BUT ALSO... I'm going to throw out Hanley Ramirez and Jeremy Hermida out there as well. Reason being, if the right offer is made, IMO, the Marlins will look at it simply because, it's the operating philosophy that they work in. They won't automatically turn a trade down simply because it's for 1 of their rising stars...

For example: If we offered Maybin, Miller, and Trahern for Ramirez and Taylor Tankersley... does anyone think they would automatically turn that trade down? I don't think they would say no. Would we make that offer? Would we want to? (NO.) What if we offered Maybin, Nate Robertson and Ramon Santiago for Ramirez and Tankersley? Doable? On both sides?

Something to discuss?

(If you're geeky enough to theorize about pie-n-the-sky trade ideas.... :grin:)!!!

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We really have 4 holes in the lineup offensively. I would add 3B to the list of possible positions to upgrade. After last years problems in BP I would like to see 1 or 2 arms added even if Rogers and Jones do resign, more if they don't.

Since we're discussing the Marlins....

I think 3rd base is a great place to start...

But since I already mentioned Hanley Ramirez in my post above... I gotta call that trade proposal #1 and leave Miggy for #2:

1) Maybin, Nate Robertson and Ramon Santiago for Ramirez and Tankersley. Very few guys I'd trade Maybin for... but since we're talking (or at least I am... :grin:) about the Marlins... might as well talk about two of the few that I would actually consider going after if it meant trading Cam: Ramirez, or Miggy Cabrera. I'll get to Miggy in a minute. The reason Marlins might go for this trade: A veteran pitcher to settle their rotation down. One who still has alot of upside, and may actually thrive in the NL. A defensive SS who helps their horrible infield defense... even if he isn't a full-time starter. And a potential superstar to replace Ramirez, a current superstar (with the bat, that is...). Tigers: Ramirez would be a DYNAMIC bat to put at leadoff, base-stealing threat, in LF or SS. Tankersley would be a good setup guy, along with Rodney, making Zoom the closer and Todd Jones unnecessary after '08 (or maybe even now.)

2) Speaking of Miggy and 3rd base: How about Inge, Santiago (Marlins would put Hanley in LF), Robertson, and Jurrjens for Miggy, Tankersley, and Scott Olsen? A Maybin trade could be possible here as well...

3) Personally, I'm not interested in Uggla or Willis.

4) What would they take for Hermida? Santiago and Robertson?

You'll notice alot of the trades are dependant on the Marlins being interested in either Maybin, or Nate Robertson.

I'm thinking they will really be looking for inexpensive veteran pitching (a starter or two), MLB-ready starters, top-ten minors talents (if it involves Miggy or Hanley), and infield/CF defense. So that's where trade talks have to start...

If we trade Nate (along with Santiago, for Hermida for example): it might help us in LF and with a LH'ed bat... but then we'll also need to fill an additional rotation spot (which we could certainly do if we re-sign Kenny and feel comfortable with Miner/Jurrjens at #4/ #5...).

Just stating the obvious again...

WILD-*** CRAZY trade proposal:

Inge, Santiago, Robertson, Polanco, Maybin, and Miller for:

Hanley Ramirez, Miggy Cabrera, Taylor Tankersley, and Scott Olsen.

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

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when are we supposed to get the PTBNL from KC for the Colon deal. it's too bad we can't get Joey Gathright to play lf he has speed to burn.

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PS: one more obvious:

6) We're not getting A-Rod.

I would love to get A-Rod. I think we can afford A-Rod, based on reducing payroll in other areas (although I certainly don't set the team's spending cap, Ilitch does). And that is where the line has been drawn. Ilitch has already SPECIFICALLY said he won't go down that path.

Nix to A-Rod.

Because Ilitch said so.

Careful 84..I suggested this and was kidnapped by evil troll posters, blindfolded and forced to watch 5 tapes of 2002 Gary Knotts starts..while they played game recaps with Luis Pujols giving the postgame..I'm still in therapy..

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So I'm going to propose a few different ideas with the Marlins, who:

Would like to improve their defense (infield especially), veteran leadership, rotation stability, and possibly their payroll costs (they could both allow a higher payroll AND shed players/payroll at the same time... if that's what they need to do to make team improvements...).

It looks like Willis and Cabrera would be candidates for trades, as well as Uggla (saw this somewhere else, forgot where) as they think he'd get them a nice return, they don't necessarily need his power, and they might have a different plan for 2nd base (forgot what it said exactly)... BUT ALSO... I'm going to throw out Hanley Ramirez and Jeremy Hermida out there as well. Reason being, if the right offer is made, IMO, the Marlins will look at it simply because, it's the operating philosophy that they work in. They won't automatically turn a trade down simply because it's for 1 of their rising stars...

For example: If we offered Maybin, Miller, and Trahern for Ramirez and Taylor Tankersley... does anyone think they would automatically turn that trade down? I don't think they would say no. Would we make that offer? Would we want to? (NO.) What if we offered Maybin, Nate Robertson and Ramon Santiago for Ramirez and Tankersley? Doable? On both sides?

Something to discuss?

(If you're geeky enough to theorize about pie-n-the-sky trade ideas.... :grin:)!!!

Ramirez will not be traded..too cheap..too good..especially because of the too cheap..plus..he is not a good fielder..

Holy Randy Smith batman..why would we offer Maybin, Miller and Trahern to any team except St. Louis..and even then you would swallow hard..and Mr. Pujols seems like he is not be dangled anyway..

I love trade threads..but if we are going to fantasize I woud prefer to fantasize about getting Justin Timberlake's ex girlfriends on the rebound, with intent, malicious desire of making him jealous.

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when are we supposed to get the PTBNL from KC for the Colon deal. it's too bad we can't get Joey Gathright to play lf he has speed to burn.

We did..and rumor has it Maggs was hungry and ate the hot dogs..

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I completely agree that a blockbuster could be had with the Marlins, but I don't think it would cost the Tigers Maybin or Miller, or even Robertson.

A year ago, our best pitching prospect not named Miller was Humberto Sanchez, who we traded in a package to NY to get Sheff.

This year, I think that top pitcher is Jurrjens.

A deal I'd like to see is to acquire 3B Miguel Cabrera because he's perfect for this team, a starpower player who could compliment the team for years to come if signed long term. I'd also like to get Tankersley. I admit, I've learned more about him through these threads than by watching the Marlins.

He would be dynamic in the trio of Zumaya, and Rodney.

I recently read in one of these threads that DD admitted to being satisfied with a lesser offensive shortstop if he could find run producer's in other areas.

In the same interview he also acknowledged that Brandon Inge had a poor offensive season, but seemed like he wouldn't want to part with him either.

So does it make sense to acquire Miggy to play 3B, and shift Inge to shortstop?

In order to acquire Cabrera and Tankersley might only cost us Jurrjens as the key player in the trade. Throw in Zach Miner, Omar Infante, and a prospect such as DeLaCruz, and MAYBE it's a done deal.

This gives the Marlins two very capable starting pitchers (JJ and Miner) who have enough upside to be 3rd and 4th starters on next years Marlins team. and they would make roughly 5 million from the trade, as the Tigers could probably afford that.

I don't know, Inge to SS, at the expense of adding another all star calliber player like Cabrera makes sense to me, and SO worth the price of JJ, if only the deal worked out that way. Maybe not, but like some of us say,

it's all pie in the sky anyway.

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Here are my projected 08 Tigers

Decline option on Pudge

Let Rogers and Jones go

Free agents to signs:

SP-Livan Hernandez (2yrs-16 mil)

C-Paul LoDuca (2yrs-12 mil)

RP-Luis Vizcaino (3yrs-15mil)

OF-Geoff Jenkins (1yr-5 mil)

Trades to make:

1.Robertson, Rapada and Vazquez to Atlanta for SS-Edgar Renteria

2.Inge and Tata to Milwaukee for SP-Chris Capuano

Braun will be moved to LF and they need a glove at 3rd

3. DeLaCruz, Clevlen and Infante to Colorado for 3B-Ian Stewart

OTHER TRADE CANDIDATES:

Thames

Shelton

Capellan

McBride

Durbin

Trahern

LINEUP:

CF-Granderson-L

2B-Polanco-R

DH-Sheffield-R

RF-Ordonez-R

1B-Guillen-S

SS-Renteria-R

LF-Jenkins-L

C-LoDuca-R

3B-Stewart-L

BENCH:

C-Rabelo-S

IF-Santiago-S

OF-Raburn-R

OF-Thames-R

ROTATION:

1.Verlander-R

2.L.Hernandez-R

3.Bonderman-R

4.Capuano-L

5.Bazardo/Jurrjens-R

BULLPEN:

CL-Zumaya-R

SU-Rodney-R

Vizcaino-R

Seay-L

Miner-R

Byrdak-L

Grilli-R

SALARIES TO SUBTRACT FROM OPENING DAY 2007:

Rodriguez- 10 MIL

T.Jones-6 MIL

Rogers-8 MIL

Robertson-3.5 MIL

Monroe-4.775 MIL

Casey-4 MIL

N.Perez-2.5 MIL

Inge-6 MIL

TOTAL: Around 45 Million

SARARIES TO ADD FOR 2008:

L.Hernandez- 8 MIL

Vizcaino-5 MIL

Capuano-5 MIl

Renteria-9 MIL

LoDuca-6.5 MIL

Jenkins-5 MIL

TOTAL: 38.5 Million

SALARIES THAT WILL INCREASE

Bonderman + 4 MIL

Guillen + 7 MIL

Ordonez +3 MIL

Rodney +0.7 MIL

Sheffield + 1 MIL

TOTAL: 15.7 Million

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I completely agree that a blockbuster could be had with the Marlins, but I don't think it would cost the Tigers Maybin or Miller, or even Robertson.

...In order to acquire Cabrera and Tankersley might only cost us Jurrjens as the key player in the trade. Throw in Zach Miner, Omar Infante, and a prospect such as DeLaCruz, and MAYBE it's a done deal...

Just so you know Mac Bengal...

There is no POSSIBLE way that the Marlins trade Cabrera to us for Jurrjens, Miner, Infante, and De La Cruz.

Not even close.

Even "Inge, Santiago (Marlins would put Hanley in LF), Robertson, and Jurrjens for Miggy, Tankersley, and Scott Olsen?" is subpar, and we would probably have to add in Miller, at least, to come close to that deal.

We don't get Miggy, unless trade talks start with either Miller, Maybin, or Inge/Robertson + others.

That's just to begin trade talks.

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Here's an article on the Pirates (excerpted):

Link: http://www.timesonline.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=18892105&BRD=2305&PAG=461&dept_id=478568&rfi=6

Pirates analysis

By: John Perrotto, Times Sports Staff

10/06/2007

Much changed for the Pittsburgh Pirates in 2007, yet nothing really changed... In a move long overdue, Dave Littlefield was fired as the (GM) on Sept. 7. Frank Coonelly, Major League Baseball's chief labor counsel, was hired as club president six days later and he hired Neal Huntington away from his role as a special assistant to Cleveland GM Mark Shapiro to replace Littlefield. Huntington fired manager Jim Tracy this past Friday after ...

... "It gets frustrating," Pirates left fielder Jason Bay said. "It doesn't matter what we do, what changes are make, we end up with basically the same record year after year after year. I know we had some talent on this team this year. I'm not saying pennant-winning talent but certainly better than a team that lost 94 games. It just never seems to end."

...Huntington is promising changes. He already took a great first step by firing Tracy and his coaching staff... here is some friendly advice to the rookie GM:

THE FREE AGENTS

The Pirates only have three players eligible for free agency in right-handers Tony Armas and Shawn Chacon and shortstop Cesar Izturis (.258-0-16).

They hold options for 2008 on Armas and Izturis and it's an easy decision not to bring back either player ...nothing more than roster filler on a bad team. ...Chacon is looking for a multi-year deal with a raise and Huntington should just say no to the convivial hurler.

THE ARBITRATION ELIGIBLES

The Pirates have seven players eligible for arbitration in left-handed reliever John Grabow, first basemen Adam LaRoche and Josh Phelps, second baseman Freddy Sanchez, third baseman Jose Bautista, infielder Jose Castillo and right fielder Xavier Nady... Huntington definitely should make offers to LaRoche, Phelps, Sanchez, Bautista and Nady, though he should avoid long-term deals with any. ...

The Pirates should not tender Castillo because he wants no part of being with the Pirates anymore. ...Castillo still has the skills to be a good player and will be a bargain to whatever team signs him as a free agent after the Pirates fail to offer him a contract...

While Grabow would seem to be a no-brainer to bring back, especially with the Pirates being thin in the bullpen, now would be the time to trade him...

ON THE BLOCK

The Pirates lack impact young talent and the best way to stockpile some would be to make trades. To that end, Huntington should put the following players on the block: right-handed starter Matt Morris, right-handed reliever Salomon Torres, shortstop Jack Wilson, left fielder Jason Bay and center fielder Chris Duffy.

Littlefield's acquisition of Morris from San Francisco in a July 31 trade was his most idiotic in a long line of such moves... Huntington will have a hard time finding any team who will take on all of Morris' salary ...a GM who is even more of a mark than Littlefield ...That creature may not exist.

Torres's durable right arm finally gave out this year ...need to move him now while he still has some perceived trade value.

Bay is the Pirates' best player despite have a horrible 2007. However, he has fallen victim to the "Pirates malaise", which hits almost every player when he realizes that the situation in Pittsburgh is hopeless and he will never play on a contending team. Bay is reasonable priced with two years and $13.25 million left on his four-year, $17.25-million contract. Plenty of teams would have interest and give value in return. And nobody needs a change of scenery more than Bay, one of the very best human beings to wear a Pirates' uniform in recent years.

Wilson is one player who has never fallen victim to the "malaise" but his trade value is high again a strong finish to the season. While it is tough to trade the heart and soul of the club, Huntington should waste no time in calling Detroit GM Dave Dombrowski. The Tigers were willing to deal two pitching prospects for Wilson at the July 31 non-waiver trading deadline. They thought the deal was done until Littlefield reversed course and inexplicably traded for Morris. If the offer still stands, the Pirates should swallow hard and make the trade in order to add much needed pitching depth. Brian Bixler, an all-star at the Class AAA level, is ready for a shot at the shortstop job.

Duffy's value is at its lowest after he missed the second half of the season with ankle and shoulder problems. He has become superfluous in an organization with other center field options that include Nyjer Morgan, Nate McLouth and top prospect Andrew McCutchen. Florida has long coveted Duffy... should get on the phone with new Marlins GM Mike Hill posthaste and see what he can get.

THOSE WORTH KEEPING

Among those not yet eligible for salary arbitration, the Pirates should hang on to left-handed starters Zach Duke, Tom Gorzelanny and Paul Maholm, right-handed starter Ian Snell, catchers Ronny Paulino and Ryan Doumit and McLouth.

...

McLouth has never had the faith of Pirates' brass but he should have finally silenced his doubters this season with his blend of power, speed and defense. He sure looks like an everyday player. At worst, he is one of the best fourth outfielders in baseball.

©Beaver County Times Allegheny Times 2007

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Some thoughts:

1) Not much interesting players available from the Pirates (by either FA's or trade...), except the couple that I highlghted above: Jack Wilson and Jason Bay.

2) If the Wilson trade involved Jurrjens and/or Miller... I think the deal should / would (in DD's mind?) be off. As long as it's 2 or 3 pitching prospects like De La Cruz, Tata, Vasquez, Trahern, Badenhop, Below, or similar... I'd be OK with getting Wilson as a 2-year stopgap.

3) I'd love Jason Bay, but I'm not certain what it would take to get him. IMO, I'd rather get Jeremy Hermida. I'm thinking the Marlins would take a veteran pitcher, like Nate Robertson (huge need on their end), and a couple prospects. (First we'd have to sign Kenny Rogers of course... o/w it'd be JV & Bondo & ???). I know they're pissed at Scott Olsen, although I don't know how much. If we could get Olsen and Hermida, for Robertson and De La Cruz and Larish or Raburn or Trahern or similar... it would be a huge coup IMO. Obviously, what I'm offering is prolly not enough to get those two. I don't know what it would take to get Jason Bay though. I'd still prefer Hermida, if that were possible... (I believe they will first look to trade Willis and/or Uggla before considering any of their younger/ better players...). I think DD should at least make inquiries with Florida though... Moreso than on Jason Bay...

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Interesting.

The Marlins are the cure for this off season, as long as DD can fit the pieces together. Miggy, Tankersley, Hermida, and Olsen/Willis could be most of our answers in 2008. The trick is to give them at least 6 players of equal value or high end prospects in return. I still think, even if he's not enough alone, that Jurrjens would be a major trading chip in acquiring Cabrera. So throw in Robertson, and Inge. I really must live in some fantasy world where Miggy becomes a cornerstone of the Tigers. I can't think of many other players who could impact the team like he can. I hope DD looks into the opportunity, and does "whatever it takes" to get him, As long as it doesn't involve the obvious untouchables.

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I've seen some posts suggesting we trade Robertson, Inge, even Bonderman, and Rodney. I don't think that would do anything to help the 2008 Tigers.

I 'm sure DD has a few lesser trade chips he'd want to use in package trades.

It's obvious Omar Infante and maybe Marcus Thames are done as Tigers.

My guess would be that Jose Capellan, Macay McBride, Clay Rapada,

and the depth of pitchers that is Yorman Bazardo, Jordan Tata, Virgil Vasquez, Eulogio DeLaCruz, and Dallas Trahern would be the group of guys who could be headed else where. I'd rather keep Zach Miner to pitch in the same role Chad Durbin and Jason Grilli pitched in last year and just let them go. Keep Bobby Seay and Tim Byrdak in the lefty role since they did well last year. Also keep Jair Jurrjens (unless we could trade him for Miggy), and keep

Ryan Raburn, Ramon Santiago, Mike Rabelo, and Timo Perez for the bench.

I don't see much trade value in Chris Shelton, Brent Clevlen, Vance Wilson or Chris Lambert, and I'd hope we keep most of the lower level prospects.

(Larish, Hollimom, Worth, Sizemore, Gorkys, Badenhop, Crosby, Below, Furbush, etc.)

That leaves Verlander, Bonderman, Robertson, Miner, Jurrjens, and (Miller) as rotation options and a swing starter. Zumaya, Rodney, Seay, and Byrdak in the pen. This leaves 2 bullpen spots, and a rotation spot open.

Pudge, Rabbs, Guillen, Polanco, Inge, Santiago, Granderson, Ordonez, Sheffield, and Perez/(Maybin) leaves SS and LF unattended.

As far as SS goes, it will probably be a better defender than hitter, but I'd be

more than pleased with Renteria. He'd make a fine compliment to Polanco, and I'm not too crazy about Vizquel. I don't think that Tejada would come to Detroit, he seems to have JaunGone syndrome about the city and the team.

I've seen three awesome ideas for LF and lefty hitter.

1.Crawford

2.Griffey

3.Ibanez

I agree with some that it would take Maybin or Miller to get Crawford, so scratch that. About as realistic as getting Cabrera, Reyes, or Guerrero.

Ibanez would be nice, but we'd only have him and want him for one year.

After next season, he becomes a free agent and we'd still need that lefty bat.

The same could be said for Junior. He'd be a better option in LF because once Maybin is ready, I doubt any of Maggs,Junior, or Sheff would play more than 120 games per season. That would give Maybin about 400 at bats as injury protection to all of them. But then again, I think Griffey is a free agent after next season, though i could be wrong, so if we get either Junior or Ibanez we'd want to sign them to an extention anyway. I really don't think Maybin would be caught in a log jam as long as Maggs and Sheff are still here.

I doubt K-Rog would be back, and we wouldn't have enough recources left after acquiring a SS and LF to trade for a good starter. So I think Curt Schilling, Livan Hernandez or Freddy Garcia would be the best options for that #3/4 starter.

I'm with those who think Jonesy will sign with Atlanta this winter, and Zumaya will be our unexperienced closer next year, so we need a good set up reliever. Scott Linebrink and Jose Vizcaino are options. We could trade for

CJ wilson, Taylor Tankersley or Brendan Donnelly, but I would jump at the opportunity to sign Mariano Rivera first. Then Zoom's back to set up, and the bullpen would be better than ever.

Then, say once we have (for example), Renteria, Griffey/Ibanez, Schilling, Rivera, and another decent late innings reliever, say A-Rod listens to offers from all his teams. With Griffey, Pudge, Rivera, Sheffield and Maggs all together, why wouldn't he want to play here. We'd simply drop Perez from the bench, force Inge to once again become a valuable multipositional utility player, and have A-Rod at 3B!

If things were to go down that way, it would be awesome, not dream worthy but good enough to get to the world series. And I think money really wont be an issue if Illitch was willing to spend 140 million on Jaun Gone 7 years ago.

So the trick is to acquire Renteria and either Ibanez or Griffey via trade.

I think both the Reds and Mariners would give us the LF's cheap, and it would only cost a package of Thames, Capellan, and one of our young major league ready starters (Vasquez?) to get either of them.

Atlanta however, might want more, but Schuerholz has just stepped down so we could hope his successor is naive enough to give us Renteria for

Infante/Tata/Trahern, which I think is pretty fair.

DeLaCruz/Bazardo/McBride or Rapada could get us Donnelly or Tankersley and then all would be said and done.

Then spend 55 million towards a payroll increase to 150 million, and I can just hear the World Series calling for us.

Now what could happen and what will happen are two completely different things, so DD, if you're reading this, I hope you have have a busy offseason!

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i love reading the 12 step programs for fixing the tigers, the Florida options are the onyl real viable ones that would overhaul the tigers, the rest require way too many signings or trades. I think you'll see Thames getting a shot to be the everyday right fielder before you see Griffey or Ibanez or Crawford in the Old English D.

Rogers will resign, they'll get a mid level starter (Livan type), and take a few shots at shortstops in trade, and be players in every trade rumor that we here, but to think we're gonna get Miggy for nothing is crazy, the same way we didn't get Soriano without parting with Maybin will work against us again teams like NY and BOS are willing to lose young Studs to get to the world series, we're not. I don't think we should, but eventually it seems like we've already decided that Maybin is the option of Gorky, so I think they need to start talking about him and raise his value up some because to get anyone that'll be as good as Cabrera, they want young return

also, I can't figure out why people on this board value Robertson so high? he's a nice guy, and does a decent job, but he'll never be better than the 12-12 4.5-5 era guy, he might have a 17-18 win season along the way, but he's not as good as it seems people rate him

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Just so you know Mac Bengal...

There is no POSSIBLE way that the Marlins trade Cabrera to us for Jurrjens, Miner, Infante, and De La Cruz.

Not even close.

Even "Inge, Santiago (Marlins would put Hanley in LF), Robertson, and Jurrjens for Miggy, Tankersley, and Scott Olsen?" is subpar, and we would probably have to add in Miller, at least, to come close to that deal.

We don't get Miggy, unless trade talks start with either Miller, Maybin, or Inge/Robertson + others.

That's just to begin trade talks.

There's no way you're going to get anything of value starting with Inge and Robertson.

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I noticed on one of the lists that Kaz Matsui was a free agent. He was originally a shortstop. Was he awful in the field? I know he struggled a bit initially with the Mets but he has been decent this season.

Well? We can probably buy 10 of him for one A-Rod. Or Kaz and a bunch of other needs.

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There's no way you're going to get anything of value starting with Inge and Robertson.

Normally I'd agree with you.

And you are 96% correct.

But the Marlins might make a $$$ decision. They often do. It only takes 1 team in the league to be in their position to create a demand...

If they decide Miggy is a $$$ issue... they may just go for a reasonable priced, excellent fielder at 3B (a stated dire need by the team... IF defense...), a veteran starter with enough upside to be a decent #2 or 3 (if he ever became more consistant), and a prospect: Let's just call him Andrew Miller for argument's sake.

They may be looking for a better prospect package... or they may decide to fill specific needs on a team that is not far off from being a contender... and get at least 1 prospect with extremely high upside in the process.

That's not to say that they won't:

- Bite the bullet with Miggy's upcoming salary raises.

- Find other ways to reduce salaries (trading Willis instead, etc...).

- Decide to run with a higher payroll or try and make a run for a World Series next year.

- Receive better offers than Inge/Nate/ and Andrew Miller (just for example).

But... if they're making a salary dump with Miggy (IF they decide to do that), teams will figure that out and maybe not offer their 3 best prospects for him. Or decide there is more value to keeping their best prospects than trading 3 for 1 guy. The Marlins, at that point, might not get that much better offers than the Inge/Nate/Miller example.

Some big IF's... but my point is that there may be a set of unique circumstances this year that actually give some value to Nate Robertson, and maybe even to Inge...

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I think we have some serious chips to trade with, and I expect us to make a couple of major trades this winter, but this thread is getting out of hand.

I don't think there is a player we can't acquire, which wasn't always the case .. but of what seems to be available; I think we can get anything...

Now that being said, that doesn't mean - however - that we can get anything for nothing.

I like our chances of getting these two bats; Edgar Renteria and Raul Ibanez.

Edgar Renteria

I think everyone has a feeling of this happening, and I feel will happen.

We have something Atlanta needs - pitching. I am guessing Atlanta would want either Jair Jurrjens or Nate Robertson, along with another starting pitcher.

...my guess:)

ATLANTA gets:

SP - Nate Robertson

SP - Jordan Tata

DETROIT gets:

SS - Edgar Renteria

Raul Ibanez

Some people have said; why would Seattle trade Ibanez when they should yet again compete as soon as next season? I can answer that with a name; Jarrod Washburn. He is Seattle's #2 starter, and it doesn't get much better after that, so they would better themselves to add a couple of young starters.

You could offer them an OF (thames or raburn), along with Yorman Bazardo and Virgil Vasquez, and I think if you do that .. you might get Ibanez.

...my guess:)

SEATTLE gets:

OF - Marcus Thames

SP - Yorman Bazardo

SP - Virgil Vasquez

DETROIT gets:

LF - Raul Ibanez

...and I like the idea of re-signing both Kenny Rogers and Todd Jones, to one year deals, to mentor and help their successors; Andrew Miller and Joel Zumaya, and I also like the idea of trying to sign someone like Livan Hernandez to a one/two year deal, to anchor and give depth to the starting rotation.

If you do that, you're team looks like this...

1. CF -- Curtis Granderson

2. 2B -- Placido Polanco

3. DH -- Gary Sheffield

4. RF -- Magglio Ordonez

5. 1B -- Carlos Guillen

6. SS -- Edgar Renteria

7. LF -- Raul Ibanez

8. C -- Pudge Rodriguez

9. 3B -- Brandon Inge

1. Justin Verlander

2. Jeremy Bonderman

3. Kenny Rogers

4. Livan Hernandez

5. Jair Jurrjens/Andrew Miller

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