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Rick Porcello

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Why do people just assume anyone can master a changeup? It's like any other offspeed pitch. Some can throw it, some can't. It isn't necessarily just because someone didn't try teaching him.

stop stealing my ideas. I can't help it if I type slow.

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Fair enough guys, but I also like Sagnam's theory that he was so dominant with the other 2 pitches, that he just didn't need the change and never made a serious attempt to learn it as a youth. That seems just as plausible.

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Fair enough guys, but I also like Sagnam's theory that he was so dominant with the other 2 pitches, that he just didn't need the change and never made a serious attempt to learn it as a youth. That seems just as plausible.

It's very plausible. I think there are a lot a high school pitchers that do not have a wide variety of pitches. I was talking more about his professional experience. I wasn't really responding to your post, just making a general post.

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I don't know if Bondo can learn a changeup anymore. He realistically CAN, but he's really not a prospect anymore. But, come ST, we'll get a couple news stories on how Bonderman will start throwing the change up, like every season.

Are there any other pitches Bondo can learn that can be as effective as a changeup?

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I don't know if Bondo can learn a changeup anymore. He realistically CAN, but he's really not a prospect anymore. But, come ST, we'll get a couple news stories on how Bonderman will start throwing the change up, like every season.

I'd rather hear those stories than hear that he has given up trying. He did use a change-up last year during the regular season but it wasn't a good one. I would guess that he would spend time in spring training trying to develop it further.

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He realistically CAN, but he's really not a prospect anymore.

I didn't realize prospects were more capable of learning new pitches than established Major League pitchers.....I don't think his ability to learn the pitch has decreased in any capacity from when he was a 'prospect.'

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Todd Jones learned a cutter at 36 or so. I think that'd be a good pitch for Bonderman to try if he hasn't already.

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Why do people just assume anyone can master a changeup? It's like any other offspeed pitch. Some can throw it, some can't. It isn't necessarily just because someone didn't try teaching him.

When I was pitching in high school the change was my biggest problem pitch. I experimented with a circle change and straight change, and just never could get consistency on either one.

You are quite right, Yoda, it's a pitch that for one reason or another, some people just can't quite master.

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I'd rather hear those stories than hear that he has given up trying. He did use a change-up last year during the regular season but it wasn't a good one. I would guess that he would spend time in spring training trying to develop it further.

Good grief, what would we do without the annual spring story about Bonderman trusting his changeup more? :laugh:

You can run but you can't hide, rest assured that we will see it again next year.

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I didn't realize prospects were more capable of learning new pitches than established Major League pitchers.....I don't think his ability to learn the pitch has decreased in any capacity from when he was a 'prospect.'

I agree with that. I think it's a matter of opportunity rather than capacity.

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I don't understand why Bondo doesn't learn the splitter, if anything. Lots of swings and misses on that one. Yeah, it's hard, but if they are expecting the fastball and then the bottom drops out, they aren't going to hit it far.

Good pitchers learn new stuff all the time. I doubt Bondo will pitch his whole career with two, even though I think he could.

Because with the conditon of Bondo's elbow..the first splitter he threw would be accompanied by his UCL...it is a stressful pitch for the healthy..for the unhealthy..it would be terminal..

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Exactly

Truth be told, Prior had awesome mechanics..in fact they were so solid, they were stuff training films were made of..Prior's problem was genetics..his body and structure broke down..how he delivered the ball to the plate was perfection.

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The numbers of all three of those teams were alarmingly high versus Bonderman. It's really not that hard to hit when you know a guy is going to throw something hard out over the plate 9/10 times.

It's hard when you locate the pitches in the right spots..no offense you over simplify..you are about Bonderman..and your theory about mechanics is flat out incorrect..

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When I was pitching in high school the change was my biggest problem pitch. I experimented with a circle change and straight change, and just never could get consistency on either one.

You are quite right, Yoda, it's a pitch that for one reason or another, some people just can't quite master.

All pitches are tough to master.. for someone..cutter curveball..etc..we just hear more stories about the change because everyone tries to master one..and most fail..

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OK boys and girls, let's all line up for our daily dose of smart - *** ........ :cool:

I was being serious and complimenting some of the gals and guys on this forum. No need to get weird about it.

We got some pretty smart posters on this forum so lets leave it at that.

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Why do people just assume anyone can master a changeup? It's like any other offspeed pitch. Some can throw it, some can't. It isn't necessarily just because someone didn't try teaching him.

I think people tend to think of it as nothing but a very slow fastball that only serves one purpose, to fool the batter. Furthermore television doesn't do it justice. Like the fastball, it looks like a straight pitch with no movement, but is obviously slower, whereas a person watching the game can see a huge break on a curve ball or the quick movement of a slider.

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With all the knowledgeable pitching coaches on this forum why don't we just dump Chuckster and replace him with a pitching coach weekly rotation from this forum. It would definitely be an immense improvement.
I was supposed to take this seriously? Well, OK ......

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It's hard when you locate the pitches in the right spots..no offense you over simplify..you are about Bonderman..and your theory about mechanics is flat out incorrect..

Jake versus sportz4life. Pull up a seat. This could be a good one!

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I was being serious and complimenting some of the gals and guys on this forum. No need to get weird about it.

We got some pretty smart posters on this forum so lets leave it at that.

Uh-huh, sure thing. Your comment was dripping wet in sarcasm, as is this one.

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Truth be told, Prior had awesome mechanics..in fact they were so solid, they were stuff training films were made of..Prior's problem was genetics..his body and structure broke down..how he delivered the ball to the plate was perfection.

Here's some of the sources I get my information about pitching from. I disagree with you. Dick Mills and Chris O'leary are two of the best in the business.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/breaking-down-the-broken-down-a-video-analysis-of-mark-prior/

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/RethinkingPitching/Essays/MarkPriorPitchingMechanics.html

http://www.pitching.com/blog/160/mark-priors-shoulder-surgerydid-the-famous-towel-drill-and-scap-loading-ruin-him/

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I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. No fight here. Because their is too much evidence against Dusty and the way he used Prior. I just think Dusty brought the inevitable quicker than it might have come. Thoughts on mechanics are ever evolving and Prior's are alot different than most pitchers with longevity.

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Personally, I still think Bonderman's biggest problem is/was health & overwork from the long playoff run being a huge jump in innings. I think he just hit the wall and his arm was "dead". His fastball was noticeably losing velocity & location, while his slider clearly had lost it's "bite".

The guy has improved every year, and was continuing that trend going into the All Star break this year. Then suddenly, he cannot get anyone out and struggled in nearly every single outing he made in the latter half of the year. Sure it's fun to play internet Freud and suggest that the guy is the worst headcase in the history of baseball. And of course we all want to be pitching coaches so it's fun to point out delivery "flaws" from film. But, given his career trend of steady improvement along with his sudden downfall to total crappiness, I find it much more likely that health was the issue.

Personally, I fully expect to see a healthy Jeremy Bonderman continue the improvement that he had shown throughout his career until July 2007. As for a third pitch? Yeah, I think it'd be awesome too, but Bondo has shown through most of '06 & the first half of '07 that he can be pretty effective with only 2 pitches.

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Has the free press or news article from today been posted yet about Bonderman's changeup and how he had it going at the end of last year? I think the article was a reprint of the previous 4 years.

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http://www.pitchingclips.com/players/francisco_liriano.htm

Here's another guy with that high pitching elbow. As far as feeling stress in your shoulder try this: lift your elbows to above shoulder height, what do you feel? A little pull. Now move them back a little behind you while keeping them up? Feel a little more. Now point the ball back towards 2nd base? A little more. Now put your elbows down to shoulder height? Stress relieved alot. Now point the ball to 3rd base. Stress gone. You are now in Roger Clemons foot strike throwing position and if you lower your elbows even more, you are in Greg Maddux throwing position. The high, back elbows are Mark Prior's position. That's the basis of my opinion.

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