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"LeBron Was Fouled" article thread

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1. Lebron traveled

2. Rip had position

3. Lebron created the contact

4. Larry Hughes should have made his shot

5. Larry Hughes should have made his shot

6. Larry Hughes should have made his shot

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There had to be about 20 fouls that weren't called that were clearly more of a foul than this play. That play really symbolized the game rather well. There were tons of times you waited for a whistle but instead a drive that had a slap cross the arms resulted in a turnover.

Looking at the play isolated I can see where someone would call a foul. However, looking at the play in context of the entire game and you get a different story. Also, the Pistons are the "traditional winners" here so if you are going to do a poll nationwide on something like that you are going to have the "bias" vote go in support with Lebron since he is one of the most popular players in the NBA going against a traditional power that people just want to see lose. I don't know what the split was on the poll, but I would guess the scenario set up with that isolated play would apt to have people say "yes". Also people love controversy and hate refs. Chances are whatever was called that a good chunk would say the opposite was true.

And asking me about being bias - maybe a bit. However, I know I seemingly have the opposing viewpoint of bias calls around here. I never blame a ref for a win or loss. I thought Lebron actually initiated the contact with a defensive player that was in position. That could've been a foul. Hamilton's actions later could've been a foul. But not that game in the context of how it was being officiated. That wasn't a foul either way. I'm not joking when I say that the same game could've had 20 more fouls called and it wouldn't have felt strange. Instead of blowing whistles they let the teams play. I actually like that.

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Rip fouled LeBron as LeBron was starting his drive. That was plain as day. But that was really just a glorified hand check and it would be tough to find a ref at any level who would call a hand check in a one-point game with under 10 seconds left, no matter what teams were playing. I'm a high school ref and honestly I wouldn't call it in that situation unless the player driving was knocked down or his progress to the basket was severly jarred. On the shot, LeBron forced the contact. Rip had incredible position on the shot and LeBron leaned into him.

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Fool,

You forgot Somehow Sheed let the board go right through his hands. :classic:

:grin: Yeah, I was at a sports bar, playing in a poker league and the whole place gasped when it went almost into the basket.

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http://www.cleveland.com/sports/plaindealer/bill_livingston/index.ssf?/base/sports/118008191434110.xml&coll=2

Mugging stops LeBron in pinch

Friday, May 25, 2007

Bill Livingston

Plain Dealer Columnist

Auburn Hills, Mich.- It started well.

But it is never about the early going here, and it is never easy.

It always comes down to the Detroit Pistons, their defense snarling like an engine red-lining, their hands everywhere, their court shrunken, the referees' whistles stuck in their throats like chicken bones, and the visitors' lead in peril.

LeBron James drove to the rim on Richard "Rip" Hamilton, who is quick as his slash and stick nickname, but he also is spindly, like a jagged splinter that can fester if it wounds you. Hamilton is 6-6, not even 190 pounds. James is 6-8, 250.

You expect James to bulldoze him.

James has met a lot of expectations in the four years since he entered the NBA as the most hyped rookie ever. But he has not met the expectations of making a winning play against the Pistons in the Eastern Conference Finals. The Cavs lost again, 79-76, the second straight brutal finish to an ugly game.

He passed in the first game with the Cavaliers down two, and Donyell Marshall missed the would-be winning 3-pointer.

Thursday night, with the Cavs down one, James missed a twisting, off-balance half-hook off the glass as Hamilton swiped at the ball and seemed to rake his arm. You don't get that call, not on this floor, not in that clock situation. Maybe you should, but that is not the way games have ever been called.

Let the players decide it, is the referees' motto. Decide what? Sumo wrestling in short pants instead of those loincloth thingies? Goat-roping and bulldogging, like in the rodeo?

Basketball is not much of a game if the only way to stop great players is to mug them. This is how two of the four teams still playing professional basketball manage not to even reach 80 points in 96 minutes of clumsy action.

This time, James took, not the last shot, but the third from last. His ungainly half-hook against Hamilton banked off the glass and skipped off the rim. Larry Hughes had an open look on a 10-footer off the rebound, and he missed too. (Lately, the would-be Pancho to James' Cisco, a very poor man's Scottie Pippen, has always missed.)

Anderson Varejao, dangerous all night, menaced the basket with a tip, but it would not go either. Free throws finished the scoring.

Before that, James gave the Cavs their last lead, 76-75, when he split two free throws with 1:11 to play.

He drove to the lane, drew a triple team, and passed to Sasha Pavlovic, so big all night with 14 points on 7 for 10 shooting, and Pavlovic could not pull the trigger as Chauncey Billups closed on him, hopping up and for a traveling violation with 32.2 seconds to play.

James seems damned if he shoots and damned if he passes. He scored only five points in the second half when he made only two of eight shots. He was harassed into four turnovers.

In the first half, he had 14 points, including a reverse dunk after beating both Rasheed Wallace and Tayshaun Prince; a ferocious throwdown as he blew past Hamilton; a whirling, right-handed finger roll that stopped, still and spinless on the back rim and then fell in and a three-point play the hard way, powering through Hamilton's arm tackle on a fast break for a layup.

He makes highlights. He thrills. But the series is threatening to become a question of identity, about who LeBron James is and what the game will think of him when he is done.

Of course, the point is that he is really far from done, witness how he has advanced his team further than Michael Jordan did at the same stage of his career.

In the '60s, Jerry West was called "Mr. Clutch," although the only time he won it all as a player, he had a sub-par shooting and scoring performance in the Finals. He played with Wilt Chamberlain at the end of his career and with Elgin Baylor before that. Sometimes, he played with both.

You may have noticed that Wilt and Elgin are not on the Cavs' roster.

To reach Bill Livingston:

blivingston@plaind.com, 216-999-4672

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NJJackal,

I've seen prep officials. You are not a credible source. :classic:

Honestly, I agree with you to an extent. There are a lot of bad ones out there. But it's a supply and demand sort of thing. There are lots of games and somebody has to ref them.

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I understand.

People think basketball officiating is the pits but they think it at every level. Well, maybe it's not the officiating that is bad. Maybe it's the toughest sport to officiate is what I think. Generally I think HS refs aren't bad. They certainly aren't as bad as people make them out to be.

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Basketball is definitely the toughest. You have VERY close things happening almost every trip down the court, and unlike football, you can't let the play happen then discuss to see if there was a foul. If you think you see it, you have to make your decision on the spot and live with it.

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nba_g_james8_268.jpg

What kind of shot is this?

Its the kind where you arent trying to make the shot, youre just trying to get contact. Plus on the way in, he hooked his arm around Rip, but no one is whining about that non-call either, are they?

The Pistons won. The series isnt over. The US' second coming of Jordan has not arrived. He does not have another "superstar" to play off of. Its the Cleveland Lebrons against the other team everytime they play.

Get over it, world.

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The real crime for Cleveland was how they waited out most of the shot clock without moving the ball around to get a shot. The TNT gang made good note of this after the game. Perhaps this is more personal opinion, but I happen to agree with working to get an earlier shot than the Cs did.

And I'll gladly co-sign about calling the game consistant from beginning to end.

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On top of everything else, the grabage that the cavs got away with in the 2nd half, they have to right to cry.

There was no foul on the play. Just a fustrated Lebron James looking for the easy way out.

And really, they should be more pissed off that they missed a wide open 7 foot jump shot after Lebron was "hacked"

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I understand.

People think basketball officiating is the pits but they think it at every level. Well, maybe it's not the officiating that is bad. Maybe it's the toughest sport to officiate is what I think. Generally I think HS refs aren't bad. They certainly aren't as bad as people make them out to be.

No sport is hard to officiate. It's not hard to call a travel, or a goaltend, or double dribble, yet plenty of basketball refs will fail on these calls. Not even getting into the ridiculous way that fouls vary wildly from play to play.

You'll have a guy literally pull someone's arm down as they shoot and it won't be called. How is that EVER excusable?

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If that were Rip or Chauncey driving the basket down by one and that happened people would be complaining of a conspiracy against Detroit and favoritism towards Lebron.

I can't tell you if it was or wans't a foul. It looked to me like something that happens every time someone drives and sometimes they call it and sometimes they don't.

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If that were Rip or Chauncey driving the basket down by one and that happened people would be complaining of a conspiracy against Detroit and favoritism towards Lebron.

There would be some Pistons fans who would definitely scream bloody murder, but I don't think the national reaction would be so adamant that it should've been a foul, nor would the local media be crying so loudly. This is just my opinion, but folks in Cleveland seem to think that Lebron James deserves some sort of special treatment.

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ian_a,

Of course it's a tough task. You can say the officials are lousy, but to say it's simple is pretty ridiculous.

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Here's something I hate about professional basketball.

When listening to some of the national discussion of this game, I hear some commentators asking why Lebron didn't get the foul call that other stars like Kobe or Dwyane Wdae would have got in similar situations --- they are asking whether Lebron has enough star status yet to get those foul calls.

I DETEST the whole idea that some players, b/c of their star status, deserve calls that other players do not. Why not call the game equally for all players? I realize this happens to some extent in baseball too, but I think the NBA is the worst.

They were just having this discussion on Sportscenter and they were talking about how Wade has gotten foul calls in similar instances. And I sat there thinking, yeah, and that's why I HATE the Miami Heat!

Anyone who calls Rip's defense a "mugging" is clearly biased towards Lebron/Cleveland or else did not watch that play very closely.

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Rip fouled LeBron as LeBron was starting his drive. That was plain as day. But that was really just a glorified hand check and it would be tough to find a ref at any level who would call a hand check in a one-point game with under 10 seconds left, no matter what teams were playing. I'm a high school ref and honestly I wouldn't call it in that situation unless the player driving was knocked down or his progress to the basket was severly jarred. On the shot, LeBron forced the contact. Rip had incredible position on the shot and LeBron leaned into him.

I am not a ref but I was taught at every level that you had to play through the fouls at the stage of the game and not expect it to be called. That was a rough game last night and I don't mind it a bit. It was painful enough on the offensive end, they didn't need 20 more whistles and a parade to the foul line.

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If that were Rip or Chauncey driving the basket down by one and that happened people would be complaining of a conspiracy against Detroit and favoritism towards Lebron.

I can't tell you if it was or wans't a foul. It looked to me like something that happens every time someone drives and sometimes they call it and sometimes they don't.

The ONLY reason I would say that is because of the ridiculous call on Rasheed when he got his arm tangled up. That was just a silly call at that stage of the game. Other than that, I'm pretty accustomed to Rip and Billups not getting those calls. Neither of them regularly go to the hoop with any authority. The shot Lebron threw up there was much like a Rip or Billups prayer for a foul.

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I DETEST the whole idea that some players, b/c of their star status, deserve calls that other players do not. Why not call the game equally for all players?

Exactly. Why should the best players get the benefit of an easier whistle, anyway? If they're so much better than everyone else they shouldn't need any extra help from the refs.

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There was contact, but he went into the lane looking for a foul.

yup, and that's why its the stupidest strategy ever. To depend on a ref's call at that point of the game, in a playoff game, is stupid. I know Detroit has lost games in a similar manner - I seem to remember Rip flopping, trying to get a call, meanwhile leaving his guy open.

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Here's something I hate about professional basketball.

When listening to some of the national discussion of this game, I hear some commentators asking why Lebron didn't get the foul call that other stars like Kobe or Dwyane Wdae would have got in similar situations --- they are asking whether Lebron has enough star status yet to get those foul calls.

I DETEST the whole idea that some players, b/c of their star status, deserve calls that other players do not. Why not call the game equally for all players? I realize this happens to some extent in baseball too, but I think the NBA is the worst.

They were just having this discussion on Sportscenter and they were talking about how Wade has gotten foul calls in similar instances. And I sat there thinking, yeah, and that's why I HATE the Miami Heat!

Anyone who calls Rip's defense a "mugging" is clearly biased towards Lebron/Cleveland or else did not watch that play very closely.

If that's true then it's pretty bad. Officials should ignore the names/numbers on the jerseys and call it if it's a foul and not call it if it's not a foul. It shouldn't depend on who the player is. If the commentators are acting like they should then perhaps they need to go work for Vince McMahon.

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yup, and that's why its the stupidest strategy ever. To depend on a ref's call at that point of the game, in a playoff game, is stupid. I know Detroit has lost games in a similar manner - I seem to remember Rip flopping, trying to get a call, meanwhile leaving his guy open.

Billups used to do that on a not-infrequent basis.

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