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Edman85

Doing some additional research...

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I've been looking through the BP historical cards that have Runs above average and runs above replacement level for offense and defense... I'll post the results in the near future, but some commentary from the numbers I've been plucking.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/higgibo02.php is one such card. I've been looking at the numbers (All-time adjusted) on the second set.

-Travis Fryman is the best 3B in team history, but this speaks more about other 3B than it does about Fryman.

-Curtis Granderson leads all Tigers CF in defensive runs above position. This is a bit biased, as players tend to regress defensively over their careers, but I wanted to point it out.

-There was a 100 run difference between Billy Rogell's defense and Harvey Kuenn's defense. This difference probably makes up the difference between them offensively. Still, it makes me rethink voting for Kuenn more than it makes me want to vote for Rogell.

-Tony Phillips belongs in the Hall of Fame.

-As with every metric I've looked at so far. Ty Cobb comes out far and away better than everybody else.

I'll post more in the coming days as I finish gathering numbers, but I just wanted to get some discussion going.

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-Curtis Granderson leads all Tigers CF in defensive runs above position. This is a bit biased, as players tend to regress defensively over their careers, but I wanted to point it out.

How did Glenn Wilson look at the same point in his career? He got off to a decent start as I recall.

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Below are the BRAR (Batting Runs above Replacement), BRAA (Batting Runs above Average), FRAR (Fielding Runs above Replacement), and FRAA (Fielding Runs above Average) for all catchers that have appeared or will appear on a ballot. +REP is BRAR+FRAR and +AVE is BRAA+FRAA. Comparing to replacement players will yeild biased results towards average to below average players who were on the team for a long time. Comparing to average will give credit to outstanding performance in the short term, but will penalize below average performance over a long period of time. Also, the batting stats are compared to the league instead of to position, so it's difficult to compare across positions.

The numbers can be found here.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/parrila02.php

  	     BRAR	BRAA	FRAR	FRAA		+REP	+AVE
Lance Parrish 244 99 270 75 514 174
Bill Freehan 335 126 336 13 671 139
M. Tettleton 215 149 47 -31 262 118
Ivan Rodriguez 95 39 106 24 201 63
Mickey Cochrane 96 60 48 2 144 62
Johnnie Bassler 134 60 144 -8 278 52
Brad Ausmus 42 10 92 23 134 33
Matt Nokes 82 37 48 -7 130 30
Mike Heath 56 8 75 -4 131 4
Birdie Tebbets 11 -60 134 38 145 -22
Boss Schmidt 2 -52 153 26 155 -26
Frank House 16 -34 75 4 91 -30
Larry Woodall 16 -30 61 -20 77 -50
Ray Hayworth -8 -74 89 -31 81 -105
Oscar Stanage -40 -167 183 -106 143 -273

Freehan and Parrish each have legit cases for the team's franchise catcher. Tettleton is a ways below them, but should still merit some consideration. He's a guy I personally plan on voting for. Bassler got some votes that certainly seem deserved. He's certainly a guy who could be voted back onto the ballot in the future. The next 1.75 years of Pudge's career will go a long way into seeing if he belongs in the Hall of Fame or not.

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How did Glenn Wilson look at the same point in his career? He got off to a decent start as I recall.

Not even close.

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Not even close.

is it adjusted for era? In those days 30 homeruns in a season was a huge deal.

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is it adjusted for era? In those days 30 homeruns in a season was a huge deal.

Well, I thought you were talking about defensive skills, where Granderson sports a +34 to +6 lead in FRAA. Offensively, in his time with the Tigers, Wilson was +5 BRAA, where as Granderson has gone +28. And yes, these numbers are adjusted for era.

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The same chart for 1B and 2B

	          BRAR	BRAA	FRAR	FRAA		+REP	+AVE
Hank Greenberg 594 443 126 53 720 496
Norm Cash 616 394 192 73 808 467
Cecil Fielder 338 212 22 -26 360 186
Rudy York 348 192 91 -29 439 163
Darrell Evans 199 114 49 15 248 129
Tony Clark 220 124 36 -2 256 122
John Wockenfuss 114 51 30 43 144 94
Lu Blue 204 88 63 -10 267 78
Dmitri Young 132 74 12 -4 144 70
Jason Thompson 132 55 50 8 182 63
Rusty Staub 145 74 2 -11 147 63
Dave Bergman 107 37 26 -5 133 32
Dale Alexander 118 62 -21 -43 97 19
Carlos Pena 93 42 -3 -30 90 12
Claude Rossman 69 31 12 -31 81 0
George Burns 61 -1 37 -13 98 -14

Interesting how Tony Clark stacks up. If Evans is getting the support it seems like he may be getting, Tony Clark will likely be as worthy as anybody. Count me as surprised that Wockenfuss was off the ballot as soon as he was. Granted, he's probably not HoF-worthy, but he seems like the guy who would get a couple of votes and hang around for a while.

        	BRAR	BRAA	FRAR	FRAA		+REP	+AVE
C. Gehringer 664 379 511 45 1175 424
Lou Whitaker 665 371 436 14 1101 385
Tony Phillips 258 165 145 61 403 226
Damion Easley 155 47 171 12 326 59
Placido Polanco 55 23 56 12 111 35
Jim Delahanty 100 56 20 -25 120 31
Dick McAuliffe 312 105 267 -91 579 14
Frank Bolling 65 -37 221 43 286 6
G. Schaefer 72 -11 112 14 184 3
Omar Infante 33 -19 85 10 118 -9
Frank O'Rourke 13 -25 56 6 69 -19
Eddie Mayo 32 -48 108 18 140 -30
Jake Wood 33 -32 65 -35 98 -67
Ralph Young 67 -52 141 -17 208 -69
Jerry Lumpe 12 -48 67 -28 79 -76

Tony Phillips belongs in this Hall of Fame. I did not realize how awful McAuliffe was defensively. With his longevity, he was probably still worthy of a Hall bid, but if these defensive measurements are correct, he probably should have struggled a bit more to get in.

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	    BRAR	BRAA	FRAR	FRAA		+REP	+AVE
Travis Fryman 261 114 246 58 507 172
George Kell 231 118 150 29 381 147
Ray Boone 186 103 89 5 275 108
Brandon Inge 70 -22 182 56 252 34
Marty McManus 84 5 135 25 219 30
Eddie Yost 95 61 12 -32 107 29
Shane Halter 41 -11 66 -4 107 -15
Ossie Vitt 67 -40 141 22 208 -18
Dean Palmer 66 18 2 -37 68 -19
Don Wert 79 -56 167 14 246 -42
Pinky Higgins 135 29 43 -97 178 -68
Aur. Rodriguez 0 -154 250 80 250 -74
Tom Brookens 75 -58 124 -31 199 -89
Bob Jones 7 -102 148 5 155 -97
Marv Owen 38 -60 99 -52 137 -112

Easily the worst position in this team's history. I thought Boone was a questionable Hall of Fame pick at the time he got voted in so quickly. Kell, too, I thought should have taken a couple of times to get in. Interesting how well Fryman rates out. I have to wonder how much spending the early part of his career here helps his defensive numbers.

Speaking of defense, Aurelio Rodriguez was a replacement-level hitter (exactly) and spectacular with the glove. The Neifi of the 70's...

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-There was a 100 run difference between Billy Rogell's defense and Harvey Kuenn's defense. This difference probably makes up the difference between them offensively. Still, it makes me rethink voting for Kuenn more than it makes me want to vote for Rogell.

I didn't vote for Kuenn and I was surprised at how easy he got in.

This is a great thread Edman. I know there is no easy way to pull the data out of BP so this is a lot of work. I'd be interested to see the outfielders since there have been so many borderline guys at that position.

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	    BRAR	BRAA	FRAR	FRAA		+REP	+AVE
Bobby Veach 448 243 191 46 639 289
Bobby Higginson 338 170 160 23 498 193
Tony Phillips 258 165 145 61 403 226
Steve Kemp 205 120 78 17 283 137
Roy Cullenbine 156 103 56 13 212 116
Rocky Colavito 180 101 66 8 246 109
Charlie Maxwell 178 85 82 20 260 105
Willie Horton 380 173 24 -71 404 102
Dick Wakefield 182 112 31 -17 213 95
Matty McIntyre 167 61 106 34 273 95
Larry Herndon 162 71 89 23 251 94
Bob Fothergill 144 66 37 -17 181 49
Gates Brown 118 40 35 4 153 44
Goose Goslin 103 40 55 4 158 44
Al Wingo 76 34 32 2 108 36
Gee Walker 136 38 79 -4 215 34
John Stone 103 24 52 -2 155 22
Davy Jones 97 20 56 1 153 21
Craig Monroe 105 32 47 -14 152 18
Jim Delsing 51 6 21 -15 72 -9

Tony Phillips moved over to leftfield still comes out with the creme de la creme. He too belongs in the Hall of Fame.

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Centerfield

	        BRAR	BRAA	FRAR	FRAA		+REP	+AVE
Ty Cobb 1391 1059 254 -12 1645 1047
Chet Lemon 296 155 176 17 472 172
Jimmy Barrett 160 84 57 7 217 91
Hoot Evers 155 65 119 22 274 87
Barney McCosky 140 62 92 23 232 85
Ron LeFlore 192 81 90 -14 282 67
C. Granderson 60 27 72 34 132 61
Heinie Manush 135 65 31 -23 166 42
Johnny Groth 93 36 37 -31 130 5
Brian Hunter 30 -17 68 18 98 1
Bill Bruton 67 -1 42 -19 109 -20
J. Encarnacion 61 3 35 -24 96 -21
Milt Cuyler 27 -20 34 -19 61 -39
Mickey Stanley 107 -70 171 3 278 -67
Doc Cramer 46 -48 54 -28 100 -76
Bill Tuttle 37 -38 25 -40 62 -78

Rightfield

	      BRAR	BRAA	FRAR	FRAA		+REP	+AVE
Al Kaline 862 529 273 26 1135 555
Sam Crawford 708 442 133 43 841 485
Harry Heilmann 738 505 115 -53 853 452
Kirk Gibson 371 229 69 16 440 245
Vic Wertz 205 114 91 15 296 129
Jim Northrup 218 91 106 -13 324 78
Pat Mullin 149 64 62 0 211 64
Pete Fox 132 3 148 51 280 54
Magglio Ordonez 90 57 20 -11 110 46
Ben Ogilvie 74 28 43 10 117 38
Rob Deer 74 32 42 2 116 34
Roy Johnson 64 -1 49 11 113 10
Robert Fick 68 27 15 -21 83 6

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	    BRAR	BRAA	FRAR	FRAA		+REP	+AVE
Travis Fryman 261 114 246 58 507 172
George Kell 231 118 150 29 381 147
Ray Boone 186 103 89 5 275 108
Brandon Inge 70 -22 182 56 252 34
Marty McManus 84 5 135 25 219 30
Eddie Yost 95 61 12 -32 107 29
Shane Halter 41 -11 66 -4 107 -15
Ossie Vitt 67 -40 141 22 208 -18
Dean Palmer 66 18 2 -37 68 -19
Don Wert 79 -56 167 14 246 -42
Pinky Higgins 135 29 43 -97 178 -68
Aur. Rodriguez 0 -154 250 80 250 -74
Tom Brookens 75 -58 124 -31 199 -89
Bob Jones 7 -102 148 5 155 -97
Marv Owen 38 -60 99 -52 137 -112

Bumping and repeating... It needs to be noted that Travis Fryman belongs. He is a better candidate than Boone and Kell who have already been voted in. Don't penalize him because the mid-90's pitching was pathetic. And yes, these numbers are relative to league averages, so they are era adjusted.

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Mickey Tettleton

OPS+:

141

136

132

128

Runs Created:

95

94

97

65* (prorates to 94 without the strike)

Darrell Evans

106

138

116

135

105

55

93

80

95

56

Perhaps I don't see how they are similar. Evans had an extra year, but his 1984 and 1988 seasons were pretty pedestrian. I fully believe 1984 would have been 1984 without Darrell Evans, so it's hard to credit him for having good teammates.

Meanwhile, Mickey Tettleton, a good chunk of the time was giving historical production from the catchers spot in the order. While his defense there was nothing to write home about, it saved us from the Mark Salases of the world. It's a lot harder to replace a good offensive catcher than it is to replace a good offensive 1B.

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This is good stuff Edman. I was thinking about this thread and Fryman earlier when I was just sitting at a softball game today (believe it or not).

Evans does have a few edges. He's got 1984 and 1987 on his side. I agree 1984 - his "leadership" doesn't hold weight. His numbers do. they weren't good. However, I'm sure 1987 doesn't happen without him. Of course neither would've a bonehead play in the 1987 ALCS either. :classic:

That helps boost Evans at least for some people.

I really have 10 people that could get my vote this time. Those two are in the mix.

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