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I'm fed up with Baseball Tonight

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I made that assumption, too, but I was wrong. Jim Duquette actually made that deal.

Aren't you going to say it is foolish for someone to attribute something to the wrong person? Or are you just going to make that accusation against me without backing up what you say? Do whatever you want. When you show some consistency and make some sense I will give you the privilege of answering you. peace.

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Aren't you going to say it is foolish for someone to attribute something to the wrong person? Or are you just going to make that accusation against me without backing up what you say? Do whatever you want. When you show some consistency and make some sense I will give you the privilege of answering you. peace.

Making a simple factual error is not foolish. Having a foolish opinion is foolish. They're not comparable.

I still maintain I wasn't rude to you. But if you sense posters are less willing to cut you slack, it's probably because you're so combative.

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Steve Philips is on acid. Trading a 21 year old stud for a old pitcher is absurd. I was quite offended to hear that garbage come out of Philips mouth.

There is a reason why Steve Phillips is no longer a major league general manager.

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steve phillips traded kazmir for victor zambrano. dudes an idiot.

Actually, that was Jim Duquette that made the trade not Phillips. Phillips was fired in 2003. That trade was made in 2004. I don't think it was Duquette's call. He is not this stupid. I think ownership was the one that push Jim to make this trade. This has Jeff Wilpon's hands all over it.

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John Smoltz to the Tigers...for Joel Zumaya? Are you kidding me? thats 1987 Doyle for Smoltz all over again, except Zumaya isn't an unknown Tigers pitcher in the low minors. I really hope DD hasn't implied some sort of Zumaya trade that would make ESPN to have a whole segment on this.

I saw that on the captioning while we were out at dinner and i was feigning interest in my wife's conversation. :laugh:

It was an opinion of Steve Phillips. He truly IS an idiot. Won't happen. About 3% of what he says will happen ever happens.

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Zumaya is dripping with talent. He can be a starter and effective for 6 or 7 innings. Trading him would be terrible.

Except he won't be. He's good but can we please stop overrating him on this board? Teams have picked up arms like him in Jenks and Turnbow off the waiver wire. Good bullpen arms are floating around thoughout baseball so I think making him untouchable is a little silly if you can get a good young position player in return which is something that this team is sorely lacking save Granderson. Also who is to say he doesn't blow his arm out in the next couple of years with his warped delivery.

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There is a reason why Steve Phillips is no longer a major league general manager.

I think this is a little bit of an overreaction to a trade proposal you don't like. Trading Zumaya for Smoltz is not some horrible trade that would get a GM fired even though I woudn't trade for 39-year-old pitchers. I'm not sure why some of you are getting so angry about a trade proposal Baseball Tonight has made up/suggested as something for them to talk about on air.

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Precisely

It was explained somewhere in this topic that he wasn't the GM behind that trade.

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Oh please. Now there's a pro-Atlanta media bias?

The victimization complex of the average Tigers fan stuns me.

That trade was concocted only with Atlanta in mind. "Hall of Fame pitcher, who should they get for Smoltz? Ooh, I know, Joel Zumaya!" I don't believe he actually stopped to think of whether or not that would be a good deal for the Tigers. If they were desperate for help in the rotation it would be a great trade. But they aren't. I don't think he was biased necessarily, but it was rather lazy.

ESPN can be a bit one-sided at times, in case you've never watched their programming before. Continue to pat yourself on the back for not having this "victimization complex", we're all proud. But don't act like ESPN is some bastion of objectivity.

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Something tells me ESPN isn't concerned about what's good for the Tigers. Why would they ever care about what's good for the Tigers. It is obvious they want Zumaya to go to Atlanta because the trade would benefit Atlanta.

Why would ESPN care about a team that is out of the playoff race. Smoltz is the only guy that could create any buzz in a deal. What you said is foolish and off the mark.

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Why would ESPN care about a team that is out of the playoff race. Smoltz is the only guy that could create any buzz in a deal. What you said is foolish and off the mark.

Why would ESPN still care about John Rocker?

He's still making the front page of ESPN.com.

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I love Zumaya, but I'd deal him OR Humberto Sanchez for Abreu.

I really don't get this.

Let's put this all in perspective. We're not even through one half of a season yet. The Tigers have put together a 77 game stand that has been good, but they've plain sucked for almost two decades. Now after these 77 games we're trading away 21 year old talent for players well past their prime? (Abreau is 32 frickin years old.)

Yeah, that makes sense if you want to make the playoffs in 2006 and then be abysmal for another decade or so.

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Guys, it's not so terrible of an idea if you approach it from a look "outside" of the Tigers fan base. Try not to think of things from a Tiger fan perspective. Let's say that Devil Rays were having the season that the Tigers are right now. They are doing great, but they are riding on a number of very young, very inexperienced arms, especially if they make it to the playoffs.

Sure, they have a stabilizing veteran, but he doesn't have much playoff experience, and it's likely that they will suffer more injuries or need to slow down/shut down Verlander or risk damage to a really young promising pitcher.

What would really help them? How 'bout a veteran pitcher who has a proven track record, not just in being very good, but being good in the playoffs. Smoltz would be an excellent pickup for a team like that no?

But what do they have that would interest Atlanta? Well, what about that young setup man they have? Having an excellent rookie year and looks promising. Could possibly be converted to a starter. He's got just enough talent and promise that Atlanta might give up a veteran guy like Smoltz for this middle reliever.

Now, looking at it from that perspective, it doesn't seem to terrible does it? This is the perspective that the ESPN "talking heads" are looking at it from. They likely don't know that the Zumaya has created a huge buzz in Detroit or that people are penciling him in for future closer status. He's just a promising setup guy who might be turned into a reliever.

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Why would ESPN care about a team that is out of the playoff race. Smoltz is the only guy that could create any buzz in a deal. What you said is foolish and off the mark.

ESPN cares more about names than teams. Players are bigger stories to them. This is all about John Smoltz, the hall of fame pitcher, and who they think would make an equal trade for him. I don't think they're putting a whole lot of though into the Tigers organization and it's goals. It's not anything against the Tigers, but that's just how they've always operated.

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Guys, it's not so terrible of an idea if you approach it from a look "outside" of the Tigers fan base. Try not to think of things from a Tiger fan perspective. Let's say that Devil Rays were having the season that the Tigers are right now. They are doing great, but they are riding on a number of very young, very inexperienced arms, especially if they make it to the playoffs.

Sure, they have a stabilizing veteran, but he doesn't have much playoff experience, and it's likely that they will suffer more injuries or need to slow down/shut down Verlander or risk damage to a really young promising pitcher.

What would really help them? How 'bout a veteran pitcher who has a proven track record, not just in being very good, but being good in the playoffs. Smoltz would be an excellent pickup for a team like that no?

But what do they have that would interest Atlanta? Well, what about that young setup man they have? Having an excellent rookie year and looks promising. Could possibly be converted to a starter. He's got just enough talent and promise that Atlanta might give up a veteran guy like Smoltz for this middle reliever.

Now, looking at it from that perspective, it doesn't seem to terrible does it? This is the perspective that the ESPN "talking heads" are looking at it from. They likely don't know that the Zumaya has created a huge buzz in Detroit or that people are penciling him in for future closer status. He's just a promising setup guy who might be turned into a reliever.

Red, I have to disagree with you there. If and more than likley when, they have to shut down Verlander that should coinside with the return of Mike Maroth. The team also has options in the minor leagues and Ledezma to make spot starts to keep the inning load off of Verlander.

Why I think it would be a poor idea to trade Zumaya for a veteran with post season experience is a couple of things.

1. What Zumaya did the Puljos this weekend. Yes, he has given up home runs to hitters, however he made the best hitter in baseball look silly in a pressure situtation. Experience or not, he is the one pitcher the Tigers have who can come in and face the best hitter on a team and overpower them. In my opinion you don't trade what could possibly be 8-10 years of closer for a 1 or 2 year rental on a guy that has had injury problems.

2. An inexperienced team gets experience by making the playoffs. For me, I don't want a one year wonder run at something, I want an open window where the Tigers challenge for the playoffs for the next 7-9 years. You can close that window shut by making deals for veterans who will only be around a short period. Zumaya is someone who should be able to help the Tigers for years, Smoltz can only do it 1-2 seasons at best. That to me is not a good idea. Not to mention the money difference between the two.

I realize this is just my opinion and I could turn out to be right or wrong. I have no idea if Zumaya's arm can continue to throw in this mannor, if it can't everyone will look back and say "wow, we should have traded him when we had the chance"

Looking at the Tampa Bay seneraio you list, there is one difference. The past decade aside, the Tigers have had a reputation for winning games. They are not an expansion team trying to market a lasting fan base. The Tigers have that already and have woken up a great deal of them. Having a one year run at success then a return to less than average baseball while they watch another Tiger developed player dominate in Atlanta would ensure many of them don't come back again.

I have no problem dealing Humberto or most anyone else in the minor's because they have not proven themselves at the major league level. Zumaya has. To me there is a big difference.

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That trade was concocted only with Atlanta in mind. "Hall of Fame pitcher, who should they get for Smoltz? Ooh, I know, Joel Zumaya!" I don't believe he actually stopped to think of whether or not that would be a good deal for the Tigers. If they were desperate for help in the rotation it would be a great trade. But they aren't. I don't think he was biased necessarily, but it was rather lazy.

ESPN can be a bit one-sided at times, in case you've never watched their programming before. Continue to pat yourself on the back for not having this "victimization complex", we're all proud. But don't act like ESPN is some bastion of objectivity.

ESPN isn't a bastion of objectivity. It's a network that enjoys having people watch its programming, and at some point they decided the best way to ensure that will happen is to talk often about the Yankees and Red Sox (you know, the teams in the nation's largest media markets?)

ESPN's "one side" is pro-advertising dollars.

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ESPN cares more about names than teams. Players are bigger stories to them. This is all about John Smoltz, the hall of fame pitcher, and who they think would make an equal trade for him. I don't think they're putting a whole lot of though into the Tigers organization and it's goals. It's not anything against the Tigers, but that's just how they've always operated.

So you're saying the analysis on ESPN is superficial but not disrespectful? There we agree. I'd say Phillips spent about 90 seconds on that trade proposal, and it shows.

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ESPN isn't a bastion of objectivity. It's a network that enjoys having people watch its programming, and at some point they decided the best way to ensure that will happen is to talk often about the Yankees and Red Sox (you know, the teams in the nation's largest media markets?)

ESPN "one side" is pro-advertising dollars.

I agree with every bit of this. You're right that they aren't biased against the Tigers but at the same time I don't think they're putting much thought into the Tigers' needs. They're simply coming up with a name that would convince the Braves to trade John Smotz. I think that's all there is to it.

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So you're saying the analysis on ESPN is superficial but not disrespectful? There we agree. I'd say Phillips spent about 90 seconds on that trade proposal, and it shows.

Agreed.

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...

But what do they have that would interest Atlanta? Well, what about that young setup man they have? Having an excellent rookie year and looks promising. Could possibly be converted to a starter. He's got just enough talent and promise that Atlanta might give up a veteran guy like Smoltz for this middle reliever.

Now, looking at it from that perspective, it doesn't seem to terrible does it? This is the perspective that the ESPN "talking heads" are looking at it from. They likely don't know that the Zumaya has created a huge buzz in Detroit or that people are penciling him in for future closer status. He's just a promising setup guy who might be turned into a reliever.

Part of the reason that this story still has legs is the fact that Smoltz made the taped message to Baseball Tonight in regards to possible trades, IIRC. As someone earlier has pointed out, ESPN is not only the reporter but they like to be the story too... so why not help an athlete that helps BBTN? I'm sure ESPN sees the alternate marketing avenues that may be available in such a situation, as now they may be able to facilitate trades and possibly garner finder's fees. :bandit:

And the above bolded line is why I think some people (me included) don't want to see Zumaya go. If he's going to be a starter, he may as well be a starter here. Especially when a guy like Jones can convert 20/23 chances (and go 1-5 with a 6.60 ERA) and still be pretty much league-average effective. A closer is nice, as you can assure that your game is won, but Zumaya is not in Rivera territory yet. I do wish that Zumaya would be able to start in an MLB setting, especially for the Tigers, because I do believe he'd be better than league average in that setting and may grow to be an outstanding *starter* And for that reason alone, I do wish he stays.

I may really be in the minority here, and maybe I'm doing what everyone else doesn't like (overvaluing our own players), but right now the Tigers have won twice the number of games they have lost. They are definitely going somewhere. While they do have weaknesses such as lack of LH bat, that is something that can be done in the offseason with less loss of talent.

And while the Tigers have young pitchers who may be on pitch limits this year (Verlander for instance), how many teams would kill to be in Detroit's position? It almost seems as if the Tigers may not have enough rotation spots for all the great pitchers they have. And if anything has been taught through the past few years, it is pitching that is the sustainable barometer of winning.

Yeah, it's definitely my opinion and it may not be popular, but I'm happy to stand pat, enjoy a year of baseball even if we don't make the playoffs after this amazing start because it seems that unless some crazy-level strangeness happens to this roster that the Tigers will be honest-to-goodness winners for years to come. And to me that is more important than a nebulous shot for the moon. The way I figure, while trading for what Detroit may need now will increase their chances for the present year, if the Tigers hang on to their young talent and develop it there will be a greater aggregate chance through the next few years for the Tigers to keep winning.

And as for BBTN, I don't have to hide from it anymore because the Tigers lost their fifth in a row. It's been terrific that BBTN cares enough about the Tigers to postulate how the Tigers' roster may be changed for the better. Even if they have morons postulating.

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I may really be in the minority here, and maybe I'm doing what everyone else doesn't like (overvaluing our own players), but right now the Tigers have won twice the number of games they have lost. They are definitely going somewhere. While they do have weaknesses such as lack of LH bat, that is something that can be done in the offseason with less loss of talent.

And while the Tigers have young pitchers who may be on pitch limits this year (Verlander for instance), how many teams would kill to be in Detroit's position? It almost seems as if the Tigers may not have enough rotation spots for all the great pitchers they have. And if anything has been taught through the past few years, it is pitching that is the sustainable barometer of winning.

Yeah, it's definitely my opinion and it may not be popular, but I'm happy to stand pat, enjoy a year of baseball even if we don't make the playoffs after this amazing start because it seems that unless some crazy-level strangeness happens to this roster that the Tigers will be honest-to-goodness winners for years to come. And to me that is more important than a nebulous shot for the moon. The way I figure, while trading for what Detroit may need now will increase their chances for the present year, if the Tigers hang on to their young talent and develop it there will be a greater aggregate chance through the next few years for the Tigers to keep winning.

This is my opinoin as well. I want to see the Tigers in the playoffs as much if not more than anyone else, but I want to see them make a run for years not for one summer. They have the best record in baseball, a bat is more needed right now than a pitcher.

I've made my feelings on ESPN know in this thread. Yoda and a few others have nailed them, it's about attracting viewers and getting marketing dollars. That is the business ESPN is in. I think that is why so many people come to forums like this because you can talk/hear information unfiltered without it being subjected to what will bring the most viewers to the table.

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