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Rumored Milicic deal

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Davis makes 13.8 mil a year and James makes 3.4, Cato is making 8.6 this year.

I don't see how this deal could even come close to working, the salaries don't even come close.

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Davis makes 13.8 mil a year and James makes 3.4, Cato is making 8.6 this year.

I don't see how this deal could even come close to working, the salaries don't even come close.

Uggh! It'll have to be James and someone else, obviously not A Davis.

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Coleman?

Derek Coleman, I presume? I had forgotten that they might owe him some scratch too.

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10.5 PPG

3.1 ***

1.5 TO

45.5% FG

44% 3 P

24 MPG

Seems to me he would be a perfect to fill in for 10 MPG. Ian, Lue doesn't suck and did you hear Dumars talk about signing Billups? Don't ignore the truth.

Because he averages those numbers on a bad Hawks team doesn't he'd be a good point guard in Detroit. He'd be the one of the last options on my list if I'm Joe Dumars.

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So... James and Coleman are getting close at $5.4 against $8.6... but a 3rd team would need to be involved...

That tells me we might have to give up a young guy - Maxiell? - for an extra ~$2 mill or so in an expiring contract....? That makes it quite a bit harder for Joe to pull off...

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Because he averages those numbers on a bad Hawks team doesn't he'd be a good point guard in Detroit. He'd be the one of the last options on my list if I'm Joe Dumars.

You must have hated when Joe D got Mike James in the Wallace deal as well because he was on a bad Celtics team.

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10.5 PPG

3.1 ***

1.5 TO

45.5% FG

44% 3 P

24 MPG

Seems to me he would be a perfect to fill in for 10 MPG. Ian, Lue doesn't suck and did you hear Dumars talk about signing Billups? Don't ignore the truth.

I said he isn't very good, not that he sucks. And of course Dumars is going to say he needed cap room, what else would he say? It doesn't change the numbers.

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So... James and Coleman are getting close at $5.4 against $8.6... but a 3rd team would need to be involved...

That tells me we might have to give up a young guy - Maxiell? - for an extra ~$2 mill or so in an expiring contract....? That makes it quite a bit harder for Joe to pull off...

No, Coleman's contract is coming off the Piston's books this offseason. They cut him mid-way through last season. But yes basically to get James it would probably have to be a three team trade. I don't see Joe giving up any of our three rookies for a backup point.

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No, Coleman's contract is coming off the Piston's books this offseason. They cut him mid-way through last season. But yes basically to get James it would probably have to be a three team trade. I don't see Joe giving up any of our three rookies for a backup point.

Mike James would be worth it. Especially for someone like Maxiell, because I don't see much in his future aside from being a backup as well...

I may be wrong on that however...

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The 2007 draft is supposed to be phenomenally deep.

I only know of Greg Oden. What are some top ten players in '07 and why is it suppose to be phenomenally deep?

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why is it suppose to be phenomenally deep?.

See Above Post

Much more, this is the first age limited draft. All the potential players who would have been available this year, will have to come out next year, and many who should have came out this year, came out last year to beat the deadline. This will be a very thin draft. Amir Johnson would have been one of the prizes in this draft had went to Louisville for a year, for example.

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Mike James would be worth it. Especially for someone like Maxiell, because I don't see much in his future aside from being a backup as well....

I'd like to hang onto Maxiell as I've liked Dumars' success with later picks and I like Maxiell's effort when he comes in for his garbage time. If James (or whomever) for Maxiell is a dead set improvement to this team right now, I understand the trigger has to be pulled. But if we can hold onto Maxiell and still improve without breaking up the current core (starting 5, McDyess, Hunter, Delfino, Evans) I'm for it.

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What do you guys think of Marko Jaric?

I think he is available.

I expected more of him in his first season with the TWolves. I'm not a salary capologist, and don't know how his contract would fit in. 6-foot-7 PGs intrigue me, but I'm not so sure about this one.

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I'd like to hang onto Maxiell as I've liked Dumars' success with later picks and I like Maxiell's effort when he comes in for his garbage time. If James (or whomever) for Maxiell is a dead set improvement to this team right now, I understand the trigger has to be pulled. But if we can hold onto Maxiell and still improve without breaking up the current core (starting 5, McDyess, Hunter, Delfino, Evans) I'm for it.

I don't think you can get James w/o giving up someone that would be attractive to them. IE: Dale Davis for James won't be enough. They'd take a 2nd rounder? Maybe. But if it's Maxiell and Davis for James and Loren Woods, they might go for that. O/W, I'm not certain they'd go for 1.5 years of Davis and a 2nd for James... that doesn't seem like quite enough...

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I don't think you can get James w/o giving up someone that would be attractive to them. IE: Dale Davis for James won't be enough. They'd take a 2nd rounder? Maybe. But if it's Maxiell and Davis for James and Loren Woods, they might go for that. O/W, I'm not certain they'd go for 1.5 years of Davis and a 2nd for James... that doesn't seem like quite enough...

How 'bout Cato's contract which comes off of the books after this season? (Again, not a capologist, don't know if this would work).

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How 'bout Cato's contract which comes off of the books after this season? (Again, not a capologist, don't know if this would work).

Nope. Doesn't work cap-wise.

ESPN has a trade deadline calculator where you can play with trades, and see salaries to calc if it'll work or not... but remember, it's gotta be a trade that makes sense, and not simply matches the dollars...

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Wickedly cool M-Live Blog comments on the trade!!!:

Beyond the Arc

A Weblog by Lee McPherson

Monday, February 20, 2006

Dumars, Darko and the draft...oh my.

In the aftermath of the trade that sent Darko Milicic and Carlos Arroyo to Orlando Wednesday, there was some pretty tense fan debates raging about Joe Dumars' draft history and whether or not picking Darko was a mistake, and how that ultimately plays into the big picture for the Pistons. A familiar refrain from some is that when it comes to the draft, Dumars sucks, and the nearly comical failure of Darko to produce anything at all isn't the only evidence of that, just the most obvious example, given his high draft status in a class that's already produced three All-Stars out of the top five players selected (LeBron James, Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade), and one other player that probably should've been picked this year (Carmelo Anthony). Outside of James, who went first overall, the Pistons could've had any one of the other three, but passed on them to take a chance on Milicic, and on numbers alone, they couldn't have fanned worse if they tried. Darko has scored about the same amount of points in his career (115) the other four usually combine for on any given night. At the break, Anthony, Bosh, James and Wade were averaging 26, 22.5, 31.2 and 27.4 points per game, respectively.

Moreover, you'll hear the same people wonder why, as a rule, Dumars and the Pistons can't draft like the Spurs or the Suns. The prevailing opinion seems to be that not only do the Spurs and Suns draft well, they have rosters stocked with "home grown" talent. In the case of the Spurs, the heady contributions of Argentina's Manu Ginobili and France's Tony Parker have stoked the belief that the Spurs not only draft better, but they have a better eye for foreign talent, as well.

Maybe so.

But, in the end, what piqued my curiosity is not so much the charge that Dumars can't draft, but that this inability has somehow adversely affected the Pistons' to be as successful as possible. Currently, the top four teams in the NBA, record-wise, are Detroit (42-9), Dallas (41-11), San Antonio (40-12) and Phoenix (35-17). Of the four, the Pistons have the highest number of players originally drafted by them still on the roster, six, including Lindsey Hunter. Three of those draftees (Hunter, Tayshaun Prince, Carlos Delfino) are in the main playing rotation, although Alex Acker may join that group if Dumars' stated desire to nab a replacement backup PG for the departed Arroyo doesn't pan out.

The Spurs, on the other hand, have four players they originally drafted on their roster, three in their rotation. In terms of impact, the Spurs' three rotational draftees (Tim Duncan, Ginobili, Parker) bring far more to the table than do the Pistons'. Duncan and Parker both made the All Star team this year. The Suns have three players originally drafted, all three are in the rotation when Amare Stoudemire is healthy. Currently, with Stoudemire on the shelf recovering from knee surgery, Steve Nash and Shawn Marion are the remaining two. Nash was originally drafted by the Suns, traded to Dallas in 1998, then returned as a free agent signee prior to last season. Nash and Marion played in the All Star game Sunday, it's hard to believe that a healthy Stoudemire wouldn't have also made it, as well. The Mavs have five players, including Rawle Marshall (Oakland University) and Pavel Podzkoldine. Dirk Nowitzki and Devin Harris technically weren't drafted by them, but were acquired in draft day trades. Josh Howard joins Nowitzki and Harris in the rotation. Nowitzki was an All Star this year.

Of 58 roster spots (Spurs are carrying 13), that's 12 contributing players for the top four teams originally drafted by those clubs, or 21%.

Each of the other three teams are getting more bang for their buck from each of their contributing draftees than are the Pistons. The failure of Darko to force his way into the playing group in two years and change, especially in light of the successes of his 2003 draft mates, seems to lend itself to the argument that Dumars, who excels in nearly every aspect of running a team, really falls short when it comes to plucking players in the entry draft.

The problem I have with this whole argument is not necessarily the assertion that Dumars' draft record is crap (though that bears a closer look), it's that it's an all-important factor that has precluded the Pistons from becoming a dynasty, as opposed to a really good team.

Bill Simmons of ESPN.com wrote this Friday in response to a reader:

'For instance, Mitch Albom wrote on Wednesday, "As for those who say the Pistons blew it with Darko -- they could have drafted Carmelo Anthony or Dwyane Wade instead? Well, factually, that's true. But had that happened, these Pistons wouldn't be these Pistons, because somebody else would be gone. And these Pistons, during Darko's stay, have one championship and one near-championship."

No offense to Mitch, but what the hell does that mean? Who would be gone? Why couldn't they have kept everyone and the No. 2 pick? You're telling me the last three Pistons teams wouldn't have been better off with Carmelo as a sixth man, Wade as a third guard or Bosh as the backup big guy ... especially last year's team, that was forced to play six guys in Game 7 of the NBA Finals? Really? You're making that argument with a straight face? Having a better player would have held the team back?

The bottom line: They could have won four or five straight titles with this current nucleus if Dumars didn't pass up three of the top-eight young assets in the league with that pick. As it stands, they're going to struggle to win two. That's why I believe that, other than Bowie-over-MJ, that was the most damaging draft-day decision of the last 20 years. And anyone who says otherwise is crazy.'

Call me crazy.

For starters, something would have had to give, whether Simmons cares to see it or not. Had they picked Bosh instead of Darko (popular opinion is that they would've taken Anthony, but they wanted a big man, and were duly impressed with Bosh's personal workout) and watched him progress the way he has, then it's likely that they don't make the trade for Rasheed Wallace in February 2004, opting instead to roll with a frontcourt rotation of Bosh, Ben Wallace and Mehmet Okur.

It's also likely that with that frontcourt, they probably don't have a legit shot at winning the title that year. Probably not in 2005, either. Maybe this year, but who knows?

Sheed gave them a legitimately great frontcourt defender to pair with Ben, and that, more than anything, contributed to their title run. Okur is a nice young player, but nowhere near Sheed's level as a defender, and Bosh doesn't yet possess the strength or instincts to put the shackles on Duncan or Jermaine O'Neal, players he would've had to defend to help facilitate this run of titles Simmons suggests was likely.

Given that titles are not commodity items, the assumption that the Pistons, or any team not featuring Michael Jordan in his prime playing against a watered-down late 90s NBA, could win four or five straight 'ships is as ridiculous a notion as there is, especially given the fact that the Spurs are currently as good as they are.

Something else to consider: Since acquiring Sheed, the Pistons are 116-43 in the regular season, and 31-17 in the playoffs.

Would they be similarly successful without him? Doubtful.

If the Pistons had drafted Anthony, then maybe they still acquire Sheed, but then they would've still lost Okur to free agency following the 2004 season, given that they didn't own his Bird Rights, and couldn't go over the cap to sign him, or they would've signed him and bid Sheed adieu. That was an either/or situation. Going forward, they also would not have been able to keep Prince and Anthony. Prince was just signed to a five-year extension, and Anthony, one year behind him, is soon due for a hefty extension.

There is really no scenario in which the Pistons could've drafted one of the 2003 stars, traded for Sheed, and kept everyone together and happy. The hallmark of this current team is the remarkable congruity among their starting five, the league's best unit. They didn't achieve that until Sheed arrived, and their record since resoundingly bears that out.

Before his arrival, the Pistons were a decent team, but hardly among the league's elite. There are absolutely no assurances that had they passed on Darko and picked one of the other 2003 top draft picks, that things would've played out in the same manner.

Which leads me back to my original line of thinking...

If 21% of your draftees end up contributing something to your success, regardless if we're talking about Duncan or Hunter, you better be phenomenal at all aspects of the job (trades, FA signees, cap management, future projection), or it won't matter how well you fare in early July in New York every year.

Dumars took over the team in 2000, the year Grant Hill spurned them to sign with Orlando, but not until after that summer's draft had taken place. Thinking that he would be able to convince Hill to re-sign, he addressed the team's pressing need (point guard) in the draft, taking Michigan State's Mateen Cleaves at 14. Had Hill already split, Dumars would've likely selected another Spartan, Morris Peterson, to try and fill the void.

If he had picked Peterson that year, then maybe they don't pick Rodney White in 2001, opting instead to address a hole at point guard instead. Tony Parker, Jamaal Tinsley, Earl Watson and Gilbert Arenas were all available in that draft.

Having picked one of those players, and having Peterson in the fold, then maybe they don't feel a need to take Prince in 2002, nor sign Chauncey Billups as a free agent.

No one really knows how these things are supposed to turn out until they play out. Maybe things turn out better, or maybe Dumars is still trying to assemble a roster that works for him.

Utimately, though, whether it's Darko helping them get there through the draft or Sheed through trade, does it matter how the roster was built, and who eventually helps them succeed at the highest level?

Not when there is so much at stake, and not when there is so little assurance that drafting well means anything more than coming off more favorably on an message board.

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You must have hated when Joe D got Mike James in the Wallace deal as well because he was on a bad Celtics team.

Have you seen Tyronn Lue play?

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I don't think you can get James w/o giving up someone that would be attractive to them. IE: Dale Davis for James won't be enough. They'd take a 2nd rounder? Maybe. But if it's Maxiell and Davis for James and Loren Woods, they might go for that. O/W, I'm not certain they'd go for 1.5 years of Davis and a 2nd for James... that doesn't seem like quite enough...

PS: The same package works getting Earl Watson out of Denver. But I think Denver gets better return packaging Watson in a bigger trade...

PPS: The same package works getting Marko Jaric out of Minnesota. And Minny is in a position to trade Jaric after getting Marcus Banks... but... I think James and Loren Woods is the best target for Joe.

PPPS: One last thing... it might be rude to trade Dale as he only signed with Detroit for a chance at the Championship. Getting traded might cause him to retire... and piss off Sheed a bit (? I don't know how close the two are...?)... But, then again... Toronto might even be happy if he retires, for salary cap relief... not certain how that'd work out (trading Davis I mean...). Bottom line is I know Joe D will run the Piston's like a business, and make the best decision for their near-term and long-term future... so if Dale has to be included... sorry.

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Wickedly cool M-Live Blog comments on the trade!!!:

Bill Simmons of ESPN.com wrote this Friday in response to a reader:

'For instance, Mitch Albom wrote on Wednesday, "As for those who say the Pistons blew it with Darko -- they could have drafted Carmelo Anthony or Dwyane Wade instead? Well, factually, that's true. But had that happened, these Pistons wouldn't be these Pistons, because somebody else would be gone. And these Pistons, during Darko's stay, have one championship and one near-championship."

No offense to Mitch, but what the hell does that mean? Who would be gone? Why couldn't they have kept everyone and the No. 2 pick? You're telling me the last three Pistons teams wouldn't have been better off with Carmelo as a sixth man, Wade as a third guard or Bosh as the backup big guy ... especially last year's team, that was forced to play six guys in Game 7 of the NBA Finals? Really? You're making that argument with a straight face? Having a better player would have held the team back?

The bottom line: They could have won four or five straight titles with this current nucleus if Dumars didn't pass up three of the top-eight young assets in the league with that pick. As it stands, they're going to struggle to win two. That's why I believe that, other than Bowie-over-MJ, that was the most damaging draft-day decision of the last 20 years. And anyone who says otherwise is crazy.'

Sorry to hijack this thread, but Bill Simmons' ignorance shocks me. Bill, I know you're a Celtics fan, so you it's not totally your fault. But back in the world of rational basketball, when you have a franchise player, you can't make him a bench player. We could keep our starting 5 and have Dwyane Wade as a backup guard? Chris Bosh could be backing up Rasheed and Ben? Carmelo Stackhouse is Denver's franchise player, and he still finds things to complain about.

I know it's been addressed here over and over, but when are people going to stop criticizing Joe D for not picking Wade or Bosh? That draft was clearly about LeBron, Carmelo and Darko. I remember people being very unsure of Wade. Him and Bosh were never mentioned with the other three. But of course, that doesn't fit into Simmons' motives to bash Detroit.

And the Pistons are going to struggle to win a second championship? Um, they were a quarter away from doing that last year and last I checked, they're doing pretty well this year. No one's guaranteed anything, but I'd say they have as good a shot as anyone to win it this year, as well as the next couple of years.

Bill, the Pistons ended the Celtics run a long time ago. Why are you still so upset?

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