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Illitch Gambling Ties Garner Attention

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Originally posted by Tyrus

You've got to be trying to bait me; nobody could really be that thick.

I think this same damn thing every time I read a pro-Ilitch post. The reasons to be dissatisfied with the Ilitch's businesses are so numerous that I find it absolutely insane that there are people here who feel the need to defend them.

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Those who seem to think that Ilitch will neglect the Tigers for the Red Wings now that hockey is back are forgetting that he can only spend $39 Million on the Red Wings now. Not that that matters, though, because they are two seperate businesses.

Ilitch has treated the Tigers the same way he treated the Wings: by hiring an exec and getting out of his way. He chose wisely for the Wings, and poorly for the Tigers, but other than that the philosophy was consistent. He has since corrected his mistake and hired a GM with a proven track record of winning. I really don't know what more you can ask of the guy. Personally, I can't comprehend what drives someone to muster so much hatred for a person who, in the grand scheme of things, hasn't done anything all that bad. Are your lives so empty that you must invest so much of it into a professional sports team?

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Originally posted by holygoat

Ilitch has treated the Tigers the same way he treated the Wings: by hiring an exec and getting out of his way. He chose wisely for the Wings, and poorly for the Tigers, but other than that the philosophy was consistent. He has since corrected his mistake and hired a GM with a proven track record of winning. I really don't know what more you can ask of the guy.

His "mistake" was a 10-year-long mistake before he finally hired DD. I am happy Ilitch finally hired Dombrowski, but that doesn't mean he gets a free pass when it comes time to judge him as owner of this team.

Here's precisely why Ilitch is such a bad owner: because he failed to see his mistakes, and let them fester instead of fixing them. That makes for a crappy owner. Period.

As the owner of this team, the last thing he should have done was to "get out of the way" while others were destroying his franchise. Right?

Personally, I can't comprehend what drives someone to muster so much hatred for a person who, in the grand scheme of things, hasn't done anything all that bad. Are your lives so empty that you must invest so much of it into a professional sports team?

I never said I "hated" Ilitch, although to be honest with you, I do think he's a slimy c*cksucker. My reasons for believing this have little to do with sports.

And, no, I don't have an "empty" life. But I do spend a few hours a week on this message board, discussing my favorite team -- and, when the subject is broached, laughing at how people can possibly try to defend Mike Ilitch's ownership of the Detroit Tigers Baseball Club. Or marveling at how people can possibly say this guy has been "good for Detroit."

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Originally posted by holygoat

Personally, I can't comprehend what drives someone to muster so much hatred for a person who, in the grand scheme of things, hasn't done anything all that bad. Are your lives so empty that you must invest so much of it into a professional sports team?

madisonlenox.jpg

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Originally posted by holygoat

Those who seem to think that Ilitch will neglect the Tigers for the Red Wings now that hockey is back are forgetting that he can only spend $39 Million on the Red Wings now. Not that that matters, though, because they are two seperate businesses.

Ha, that's funny! he can spend only $39M on the dead wings?

Sweet!

Hopefully that $39 M wont buy him a playoff team. I'd love nothing more than to see the dead wings not make the playoffs, say for like, 13 years?

That would be cool. He might actually know how Tiger Fans feel.:devious:

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Lest anyone think that they can't come here and complain about Mike Illitch, they're wrong. Complain away but do it reasonably and logically or expect to get your butt handed to you because you're not the only one with an opinion. That doesn't make those who hold an opposing view "Illitch lovers", it makes you bitter and lacking reason on this subject.

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Amazing. As hated as he is, not even William Clay Ford invites the level of hatred that Ilitch does even though his team has sucked for four times as long as the Tigers, and he hasn't brought a championship to any other major league Detroit team. The jealousy of the Wings exhibited by some fans is hilarious. I wonder if some of you would even be able to enjoy a Tigers World Series championship if it were won under a Mike Ilitch ownership.

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Originally posted by tiger_fan_for_life

Ha, that's funny! he can spend only $39M on the dead wings?

Sweet!

Hopefully that $39 M wont buy him a playoff team. I'd love nothing more than to see the dead wings not make the playoffs, say for like, 13 years?

That would be cool. He might actually know how Tiger Fans feel.:devious:

That would be great since he would have less money to spend on the Tigers due to losing money on his NHL team. :cheeky:

Its not that you have no right to complain about Illitch. Illitch has made a ton of mistakes. However your blind hatred and the irrational reasons for it including the blaming of the Red Wings for the Tigers problems are illogical. You also take it too far.

Either way Illitch has been a bad owner of the Tigers. Of course he didn't have much to work with when he bought the team but keeping Randy Smith around did not help the situation. Now he has Dombrowski, that is the single biggest reason that all of the sudden it looks like he "cares" about the Tigers. Not the change in status with the Red Wings. The fact he actually has someone that knows what they are doing helps out a lot.

Monoghan gets my worst owner in Tigers history award because he hired Bo Schembeckler and fired Ernie Harwell. Also under his watch the Tigers player development system became garbage. And it still is trying to recover. Not that Randy and Greg Smith helped that recovery out whether some like to admit it or not. They just didn't do enough, they found a prospect here and there but the farm is still way too thin. But now they have Dombrowski it has started to improve a bit. Chadd is our hope though, because under Dombrowski Greg Smith still failed to provide the depth. He did find Granderson, Zumaya, Verlander, and Giarratano though. Maybe even Shelton, I am not sure who does the scouting for the Rule V draft.

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Originally posted by WMUDan

madisonlenox.jpg

ah, as long as we are talking baseball then....

He's a bad baseball owner because he wants to knock down old buildings. I see the connection.

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Originally posted by Tyrus

Right. And those weren't gambling slips Pete Rose was filling out: they were his grocery lists.

Do you work for these people or something?

Took long enough for that charge to come out. Usually it's the first page before someone gets accused of being either a family member or employee.

As for your first point...... No they were not slips and Rose was suspended forever. I don't get your point. Obviously MLB goes hard after gambling on baseball. Did Marian Ilitch gamble on baseball?

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I'll argue with empirical evidence only:

Illitch has 12 losing seasons under his belt. Sure, things might be looking up, but the Tigers have yet to even get +3 games over .500 at any point beyond the first 3 weeks or so of the season.... so I believe its WAY to early to credit him with any success with this team whatsoever.

If you want to give him credit for success, then the bar for success in Detroit for baseball is miserably low.

I have no empirical evidence (but some anectdotal evidence) to say that this losing era in the Tigers is related to any of his other businesses, so I will not accuse him of this.

But, I cannot say that someone who oversaw what has happened to the Tigers in the past 12 years, including one of the worst seasons ever in MLB history, is a good owner. And with the distinct possibility of 13th coming right soon, I don't think anyone else can either.

Has he made some good decisions recently? Yeah. Have Millen and Ford? Yeah. Have either of them won ****? No. And that's all that matters.

FWIW, until either of them get their respective teams over .500, I can't consider DD, MM, Little Ceaser, or F150 a success. Because they aren't. I don't care who they signed, who they've drafted, who they have coaching. IF they don't win, its not successful.

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Originally posted by Oblong

ah, as long as we are talking baseball then....

He's a bad baseball owner because he wants to knock down old buildings. I see the connection.

They are bad baseball owners because the record shows their teams are not very good at winning. Their evil because of their attitude towards their real estate holdings. I never said their was a connection, but their may be a correlation.

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well I figured since this was a baseball forum and not a real estate forum that the connection was understood.

Ilitch has suffered more from the tigers losing than anybody here. That's his business and job. I don't recall anybody saying he was a good owner but nice strawman pfife.

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Originally posted by Oblong

I don't recall anybody saying he was a good owner but nice strawman pfife.

Many have argued that he's a good businessman in this thread. I presented empirical evidence why his Detroit Tigers business is not good business.

So, no one said "was a good owner" - but people have said he was a good businessman. Further, I didn't know that I said anyone said he was a good owner, nor did I realize that my post had to be in response to something someone else said. My mistake.

Calling me on one word still does not challenge the principle I am saying: He has not been a success with the tigers, and has not given any reasonable evidence to show that it will change in the future.

And if you do think there is evidence to the contrary, then the bar for success is quite low.

And forgive me for thinking that 12, and possibly 13 losing consecutive losing seasons, including one of the worst seasons in MLB history, for one of my favorite teams is a big deal. I should have realized that it was just fodder for my "straw argument".

I feel that if you discount what I am saying as a straw argument, you are not focusing on what is important in sports: winning - because that is what my whole argument is.

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What you say there is quite reasonable. But when you talk about people saying he's a good owner or has been successful in baseball then you are either arguing a point that was never made or putting words in mouths.

He knows he hasn't been a success as Tiger owner better than anybody here possibly could. It doesn't affect us other than our moods. It affects him directly.

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Originally posted by Oblong

What you say there is quite reasonable. But when you talk about people saying he's a good owner or has been successful in baseball then you are either arguing a point that was never made or putting words in mouths.

or making a seperate point of my own.

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Originally posted by Oblong

What about other owners? You are "begging the question" by assuming that something's true which we are trying to figure out and using that to back up your argument.

Steinbrenner was suspended for associating with that Spiro guy. Was that gambling related? I don't recall teh specifics.

I'm making the argument that I don't think anything funny is going on because if it were baseball would do something about it because they don't like the associations.

You're probably correct in that neither of us knows enough about the relationships involved to comment from a position of knowledge. I think our basic difference is summed up in your last paragraph. I don't have the faith in Selig and his stewardship to do what is in the best interest of the sport.

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Originally posted by pfife

I can't consider DD...a success. Because [he isn't]. I don't care who [he] signed, who [he's] drafted, who [he has] coaching. IF [he doesn't] win, its not successful.

floridamarlins1997champs.jpg

Oops.

Try again.

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Originally posted by dt35456884

Oops.

Try again.

We're in florida now? Is this FloridaSports.com, Marlins subforum? Is that image the Detroit News? Or the Detroit Free Press? Are those the Tigers?

Obviously I know he won in Florida.

Still not better than .500 in detroit.

Try Again.

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Originally posted by holygoat

Are your lives so empty that you must invest so much of it into a professional sports team?

After posting 5007 messages, I think your logic ran out.

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Originally posted by Oblong

Ilitch has suffered more from the tigers losing than anybody here. That's his business and job.

Do we have P&L numbers for the Tigers during those 13 losing seasons? It would be interesting to see just how much he really has "suffered", if at all.

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Originally posted by pfife

We're in florida now? Is this FloridaSports.com, Marlins subforum? Is that image the Detroit News? Or the Detroit Free Press? Are those the Tigers?

Obviously I know he won in Florida.

Still not better than .500 in detroit.

Try Again.

Sorry but 82 wins is not the magical cut off point that measures success. If it was, Dombrowski could sell the farm this week and I'm quite sure we could pull off 85 wins or so this season. Building champions is the goal, not reaching .500.

I find it foolish to call out DD for "not being a success" when he has won one World Championship (1997) and is largely responsible for another (2003). If you didn't notice, he inherited one of the worst organizations in baseball just a couple seasons ago.

You're barking up the wrong tree right now, but I guess that fits the coolly detached, what-have-you-done-for-me-lately front you put on.

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Originally posted by dt35456884

Sorry but 82 wins is not the magical cut off point that measures success. If it was, Dombrowski could sell the farm this week and I'm quite sure we could pull off 85 wins or so this season. Building champions is the goal, not reaching .500.

But, if one doesn't reach .500, they don't win the champioship.

I find it foolish to call out DD for "not being a success" when he has won one World Championship (1997) and is largely responsible for another (2003).

So, I wasn't specific - he hasn't been a success with Detroit yet. He hasn't reached the point where his team wins more games than they've lost.

I could care less what he did in Florida. I care what he is doing in Detroit.

Mooch also went 12-4 in SF. That does NOT mean that he gets a free pass for Lions. In fact, it was relevant in getting him the job. Otherwise, irrelevant. Same with DD.

If you didn't notice, he inherited one of the worst organizations in baseball just a couple seasons ago.

I acknowleged that in the post you originally quoted. And I thanked Illitch for the inheritance - also in the post you originally quoted.

Let me guess.... the owner isn't responsible for having "one of the worst organizations in baseball", is he?

But hey, don't let what I said get in the way of your petty belittlement of me.

You're barking up the wrong tree right now, but I guess that fits the coolly detached, what-have-you-done-for-me-lately front you put on.

haha Front? OK.... that makes sense. Whatever you say Mr. Mind Reader over the Internet/Psychologist whatever...

So far, DD hasn't done anything for the Tigers yet. They are still a less than .500 team. When they actually win more games than they lose, then I'll grant him some success.

What I will NOT do is say that he's great for assembling a group of players. That's not the name of the game. A component - yes - the objective? No.

What I will do is give him credit for taking a team that really sucked and making them a bit less sucky. Not something to be proud of... but all he has done so far.

What I will NOT do is speculate that success is going to happen in the future, and give him credit for that. But I will have no problem whatsoever doing that when he gets the job done.

Do I think he will get it done? Yup. Has he? Nope. Not close yet.

It's empirical fact.

I'd rather wait until the job is done before I bow down in humble allegiance to DD. You may not. Its the way I feel about the situation, which also happens to be the one based in present empirical evidence, as opposed to mere faith, hope, and optimism for the future. I see nothing wrong with bestowing credit upon something after the job is done, and not before.

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