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Todd

Tigers Vs. Twins game 2

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The great thing about this game is it gives me another Harwell game to tape. I'm finally starting to fall a little behind. I'm taping pretty much any games on the 15 and 30th of the months (unless it is a horrendous blowout) and any other real good games. Right now I plan on getting a taping of the radio broadcast fo the Weaver shutout and now Cornejo's game. I just finished our Wild pitch victory last night.

Anyone else taping any of these games for a Harwell collection or am I the only sicko?:D

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There is no way Cornejo should be thowing 120 pitches in a game. Good to see Nate have a good game, but if every time we have a starter throw well Pujols is gonna leave them in until the endwe are gonna have a bunch of injured pitchers eventually.

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QS, by the book you are probably right. But what he gained in confidence surely outweighs the stress of the one game on his arm. If a pattern continues of throwing our young pitchers that long, I'd be worried. But a complete game victory for Cornejo is exactly what he needed. Getting those last 3 outs is worth it's weight in gold.

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Cornejo is a big boy...He seems more mature than Jeff Weaver and better built. It was alot of pitches but Corny wasnt even breaking a sweat. He is a throwback player like Jim Thome it seems ..... like in the days when pitcher pitched every other day.

I know 128 pitches seemed like a lot but Corny hasnt pitched very many innings this year so he should be ok....but then again this is the Tigers.

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Anybody got Mickey Lolich's email address?

Somebody should send this thread to him. He always liked a good laugh, and this new pitch-counting fad is one of his favorite jokes.

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Somebody call Mike Fydrich and see if he is laughing. Or Alan Benes. Or Kenny Baugh. With all due respect to Mickey Lolich (he was a good pitcher) he has absolutely no idea what he is talking about when it comes to pitcher workloads. :)

If you honestly don't think that throwing lots of pitches is bad for most pitchers, you are crazy. There are some pitchers (Randy Johnson being the most obvious one) that seem to be capable of throwing any number of pitches any time, but most will end up hurt. And no matter how much confidence Cornejo gains, it isn't worth a trip to the DL. 128 pitches isn't bad if it isn't something they do constantly. But if Cornejo is pitching well next time does he come out at 100 or does he keep going? Cornejo's 22, and he's thrown alot of innings in the last 3 years. Why would you ever risk his arm on the basis of potentially increasing his confidence?

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Doesn't he look a bit larger than in the past? Gained a few pounds maybe? He did that so he could throw more pitches, more innings and not burn out in August like he has in the past.

Guys like Weaver may need to concider fattening up in order to last longer, which is what Lolich has said all along. To say he has no idea what he's talking about is a pretty arrogant statement which sounds like something that Volcan mr. Spock would say.

Fidrych hurt his arm trying to come back too soon from a knee injury he caused himself by screwing around shagging fly balls in the outfield. Or if you want to believe urban legend, he was beaten up by a jelious husband of a chick he was fooling around with and a few of his friends. Either way, it wasn't because he pitched too much in 1976.

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By in large I think the players are too fit, and that's why there is so many trips to the DL. Look at Andres Torres for crying out loud - 2% Body Fat, and then one is surprised when he pulls a hamstring. These players are year round athletes, and they give their bodies no off-season, and with all the weights they are lifting their muscles and tendons are too tight and injuries happen.

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If the idea is to get fat, why have David Wells and Mo Vaugh been spending so much time on the DL?

Again, no offense was intended towards MIckey Lolich. He was a good pitcher. but being a good pitcher does not in any way qualify you as a doctor. His opinion on the subject is a tad biased I would say, based on the fact that he was a tad large and able to pitch alot of innings. Randy Johnson is thin as a twig and able to pitch alot of innings. So people are better able to handle the rigors of pitching than others, of that there is no question. But it can be shown that there is a strong correlation between high pitch counts and trips to the DL.

Being a large fat man doesn't protect your elbow.

Fydrich was never the same pitcher after his rookie year. Not before his knee injury and not after.

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His knee injury was a direct cause of his rotator cuff proplems, I would guess. He favored his knee and it changed his motion and release point and put additional strain on his shoulder. Back then, you tear your rotator cuff, you were finished. Now, they're like a speed bump in a career, in many, if not most, cases. The Bird wasn't overworked, he just had bad luck. How I wish he could've had a whole career.

Cornejo has stuff very, very similar to The Birds, very hard sinking fastball.

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Nowadys Rotator cuff surgery is still a big deal. While Tommy John surgery is fairly easy to recover from, rotator cuff surgery is still very career threatening.

Could be Bird's injury was a direct cause of the knee injury. Could be it was due to 250 IP at the age of 22. Could be the injury was always there and would have happened no matter what. No one will ever know. But the fact is he pitched 250 IP at a young age and then he hurt his shoulder the following year. If he were the only one to ever do this, no one would care but he's not. It happens all the time. Some guys make it back (Kerry Wood, Matt Morris), some guys don't (Alan Benes, Jaret Wright), but they all got worked hard at a young age and got hurt.

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I don't think throwing an extra inning to get your first CG is going to hurt anybody. I think the way the pitchers are babied nowadays is the problem. Throwing overhand is very unnatural. Whether you do it 100 times or 110 times is irrelevant.

I didn't realize Fidrych threw with his knees.

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I agree, the one extra inning isn't a problem (though I don't agree at all that pitchers are babied or that it is a problem).

The problem will only occur if Pujols consistently leaves Cornejo and Weaver (and Redman) in for 120+ pitches each start.

The point at which is becomes relevant or irrelevant is certainly questionable. I tend to view anything above 110 to be pushing it and anythng above 130 extreme.

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I agree that it can be a problem but I think it has to do with the way the pitchers are conditioned. That's what I meant when I said babied. If you average 100 pitches(or 6 or 7 innings-I don't know the specific numbers) your whole life, and suddenly once you hit the big leagues, you are going 9, then it will catch up to you because your body is not used to it.

But then again, since you are throwing in an unnatural way, injuries could be from anything.

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Of course Fidrych threw with his knees, every pitcher since the beginning of time throws with their knees. Leg strength is just as important as arm strength. In fact, leg strength is what allows hard throwers to throw as hard as they do. And if I remember correctly, it was The Birds right knee, his push-off knee that he injured.

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Depending on the hard thrower. Some guys like Clemens and Colon throw almost completely with their legs. Guys liek Johnson or Weaver however use more of their arm.

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If Nate is going to throw 120 pitches every game. Then the Pujols is a terrible manager. This was Nate's first complete game. If you were Cornejo, you would beg Pujols not to take you out. IMO Pujols did the right thing.

You can't always play by the rules or stats. If that was the case then you have to pull a guy in the 8th inning even if he was throwing a perfect game. I am a believer of following rules, stats, and trends to a point. You won't when championship if you don't follow the basics, but it's the special situations that make the game great.

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