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Motor City Sonics

You know what brings me a great deal of joy?

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Watching that ballhog jackass Kobe Bryant and the Lakers fall flat on their faces and miss the playoffs. At the same time Shaq is soaring with Miami. Not some kind of huge Shaq fan, but at least he passes the ball to an open man.

If there is a God, the Clippers will finish higher than the Lakers this year.

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Despite the fact that they stink this year, Sportscenter is spending about a quarter of their broadcast talking about them... :confused:

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Originally posted by Deleterious

Long term, Lakers still made the right choice.

Please explain. They're obviously going nowhere with the team they have now, and they won't be under the cap until three seasons in the future. I'm not sure how they would have done if they had kept Shaq, but it'd definitely be better than this.

By the way, other teams that I'm rooting to miss the playoffs: Timberwolves, Cavs.

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Originally posted by black_sandals

Please explain. They're obviously going nowhere with the team they have now, and they won't be under the cap until three seasons in the future. I'm not sure how they would have done if they had kept Shaq, but it'd definitely be better than this.

By the way, other teams that I'm rooting to miss the playoffs: Timberwolves, Cavs.

I agree with your assessment of the Lakers. I think this season has shown how lucky Kobe was to have played along side Shaq for as long as he did. Shaq could've won those rings without Kobe, but I doubt that Kobe could've won them without Shaq.

Personally, I'd love to see the Cavs make the playoffs. I know it's a sin for a Detroiter to pull for a Cleveland team, but it's really hard not to like Lebron James.

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Originally posted by black_sandals

Please explain. They're obviously going nowhere with the team they have now, and they won't be under the cap until three seasons in the future. I'm not sure how they would have done if they had kept Shaq, but it'd definitely be better than this.

By the way, other teams that I'm rooting to miss the playoffs: Timberwolves, Cavs.

Three years is short term.

Shaq probably gets them into the playoffs this year, but its an early exit for them and no way do they compete for a title. That is actually worse then making the playoffs. Now they have a shot at the #1 pick in the draft lottery. Plus they have a #1 pick coming from Miami. That could be a very high pick of their own and a lower round pick from Miami. If you do your homework you can find good players in the late first round or even second round (Okur, Arenas).

Now you have a young guy, possibly two coming onto a team that really isnt that bad. Rudy T leaving really tossed a monkey wrench into their season, plus Kobe missing all of that time with his injury hurt obviously. Then you use the lure of playing in LA to get a good veteran to come in and play for the MLE.

Now lets look at it if they had kept Shaq. Their salary cap situation would be exactly the same as it is right now. His contract is about double what Kobe's is for two years, but you don't have Grant, Odom, and Butler on the team. Sure Odom and Grant are vastly over paid, but they are still decent players. You can probably still get a good veteran to play for the MLE like I said above, but you don't get the draft choices that I mentioned above. Plus Shaq plays 5 more years tops, probably only 3 of those at the top of his game. The past few years he was overweight and had some injury problems because of the probably (He slimmed down a lot this year, but how were we to know that was going to happen?). Kobe is at the top of his game and one of the best players in the league another 10 years minimum.

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Originally posted by holygoat

I agree with your assessment of the Lakers. I think this season has shown how lucky Kobe was to have played along side Shaq for as long as he did. Shaq could've won those rings without Kobe, but I doubt that Kobe could've won them without Shaq.

Personally, I'd love to see the Cavs make the playoffs. I know it's a sin for a Detroiter to pull for a Cleveland team, but it's really hard not to like Lebron James.

How many rings did Shaq win before Kobe?

I think they were both lucky to play with each other to be honest.

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How many rings did Michael Jordon win without Phil Jackson? I think you could've put any number of above average 2-guards on those championship Laker teams and they would've still won. Saying that Shaq was lucky to be playing with Kobe is true to a certain extent, but it's kind of like saying that Wayne Gretzky was lucky to play with Jarri Kurri.

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Substitute Kobe with T-Mac, Vince, Pierce, Allen, AI, Peja, maybe even JRich, and LA still wins. Substitute Shaq with anyone else (except maybe Duncan) and they lose. Saying that Shaq was lucky to play with Kobe is like saying that Michael was lucky to play with Scottie. Sure Pippen was a great player, but we all know whose back those championships were won on. And LA now understands whose back their championships were won on also.

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Forgot to say that I was hoping LA would make the playoffs since I knew they'd lose in the 1st round and get a crappy draft pick too. Sorry, I hate LA.

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Originally posted by Betrayer

Substitute Kobe with T-Mac, Vince, Pierce, Allen, AI, Peja, maybe even JRich, and LA still wins. Substitute Shaq with anyone else (except maybe Duncan) and they lose. Saying that Shaq was lucky to play with Kobe is like saying that Michael was lucky to play with Scottie. Sure Pippen was a great player, but we all know whose back those championships were won on. And LA now understands whose back their championships were won on also.

You are going to use this season to determine whose back those championships were won on? Really?

Thats a bit short sighted. Lets say they got rid of Kobe. Now they might have done a sign and trade, but as vindictive as Kobe is he might have taken less money just to screw the Lakers and they get zero for him.

Now you have Shaq, Cook, Atkins, Medvawhateverhisnameis etc. Pretty imposing team eh? At best they lose in the first round, no way do they even come close to contending.

Toss in the fact Shaq is probably gone in 3-4 years (Or at least his skills drop off quite a bit) and that team is toast. At least with Kobe they have a player for the next 10 years.

I stick by my original statement that LA did the best thing for the long term. Until Shaq wins something without Kobe, anyone saying those championships were won on the back of Shaq is just guessing.

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Del...you don't think that players would jump all over eachothers backs to play with Shaq? T-Mac might have preferred the Lakers to Houston, or any number of players would have loved to play on the Lakers. And with Shaq on that team, plus upgraded positions due to the ability to spread Kobe's salary out, while the Lakers might not have won any championships they certainly would have competed for them. When Shaqs on your team, you always compete for it. And without Kobe, the Lakers have more flexibility over the remaining few years that Shaq plays. Jackson would have remained most likely as well. LA is currently an undesirable location to play due to Kobe. With Shaq it remains the premiere location to play.

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I think that there is absolutely no question whose back those championships were won on. This season has only backed that claim up, but everyone knew it way before now.

I do think it would have been real tough to make this year a success for that team no matter what. But yes, I would have kept Shaq. With Shaq for the next few years you have a chance to contend for the title. If they could have pulled off a sign and trade with Kobe, that would have been optimal. If not, then many players would have tried to come to LA anyway for a chance at a title. With Kobe instead, you have the same thing you had with T-Mac in Orlando, Vince in Toronto, and AI in Philly - a whole lot of nothing for the next 10 years other than ticket sales and early exits from the playoffs (if that).

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For all you conspiracy theorists...

how does the league fix this Laker Problem? Is there another Magic Johnson available in this draft?

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Originally posted by DaBishop

Del...you don't think that players would jump all over eachothers backs to play with Shaq? T-Mac might have preferred the Lakers to Houston, or any number of players would have loved to play on the Lakers. And with Shaq on that team, plus upgraded positions due to the ability to spread Kobe's salary out, while the Lakers might not have won any championships they certainly would have competed for them. When Shaqs on your team, you always compete for it. And without Kobe, the Lakers have more flexibility over the remaining few years that Shaq plays. Jackson would have remained most likely as well. LA is currently an undesirable location to play due to Kobe. With Shaq it remains the premiere location to play.

You could not spread out Kobe's salary, even if he had left, they were over the cap or right about at it. Shaq makes $27 million this year and $30 next year. The cap is $54 million I think. With the players left plus Shaq, that would have put them right about $50 million. That leaves you $4 million dollars to play with. So no, adding more players was not a likely option.

Now if they did a sign and trade with Kobe, things would be different. But as childish and immature as he is, him walking for less money isnt that far fetched of an idea.

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Originally posted by holygoat

Saying that Shaq was lucky to be playing with Kobe is true to a certain extent, but it's kind of like saying that Wayne Gretzky was lucky to play with Jarri Kurri.

Or Steve Yzerman was lucky to play with John Chabot:classic:

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Originally posted by holygoat

How many rings did Michael Jordon win without Phil Jackson? I

Or more apropos, Scotty Pippen. I think Michael doesn't get six rings without Scotty, but Scotty gets no rings without Michael. And Kobe gets no rings without Shaq.

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Originally posted by shabba4detroit

Or more apropos, Scotty Pippen. I think Michael doesn't get six rings without Scotty, but Scotty gets no rings without Michael. And Kobe gets no rings without Shaq.

Any number of players could be swapped with Pippen and Joradn still easily gets six rings.

Duncan can be swapped with Kobe and he gets rings. Three rings? That might be debatable. Some might argue they win more. Duncan is 10 times the professional that Shaq is and probably would not get into a running fued with a player on his team.

KG might get him a ring or two as well. But with the crap I have seen from him the past 7-8 years, I am not as sure with him as I am with Duncan.

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Well, I think the key here is that there are maybe 1 or 2 dominant players in the league at any one time. Those players can be teamed with a multitude of other players to bring home a ring. Jordan was one of those players. Shaq and Duncan are those dominant players right now. Kobe is not one of those players. That's why I keep Shaq who will be one of those players for the next few years rather than Kobe who will be great but never on that level.

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Originally posted by Betrayer

Well, I think the key here is that there are maybe 1 or 2 dominant players in the league at any one time. Those players can be teamed with a multitude of other players to bring home a ring. Jordan was one of those players. Shaq and Duncan are those dominant players right now. Kobe is not one of those players. That's why I keep Shaq who will be one of those players for the next few years rather than Kobe who will be great but never on that level.

I understand that thinking. But the Lakers had to rebuild with one of those guys leaving. Shaq taking up 60% of your cap space makes that very hard to do. Even with Kobe getting his huge contract, he isnt even close to Shaqs cap number.

If they felt they could do a sign and trade with Kobe, I would have kept Shaq and went for the championships now. But I really think they thought he would walk and sign somewhere cheaper just to screw them.

Like you or someone else said, if they could have done a sign and trade and get TMac or someone on that level, they keep rolling along. But if he walks, they only have around $4 million in cap space.

Lets face it, after Shaq and Kobe, the Lakers pretty much sucked. They would have needed to sign a big time FA to compete this year and with only $4 million in cap space, that prospect was not very likely.

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Originally posted by shabba4detroit

Or more apropos, Scotty Pippen. I think Michael doesn't get six rings without Scotty, but Scotty gets no rings without Michael. And Kobe gets no rings without Shaq.

Yeah, but they ALL got rings with Phil. :wink:

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Originally posted by holygoat

Yeah, but they ALL got rings with Phil. :wink:

I think you mean: They all got Phil rings.

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I see your point for sure about the lakers being better off in the long run, but I don't buy your arguement about the lakers losing in the first round if they had Shaq. He is still Shaq and will be shaq-dominant for atleast 1 year maybe 2 or 3 more(however unlikely) What i dont understand is why give up a good shot at a ring with shaq now for an uncertain shot at a ring in the future. If that's the case, bench Big Ben and start darko.

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Originally posted by dshinska

I see your point for sure about the lakers being better off in the long run, but I don't buy your arguement about the lakers losing in the first round if they had Shaq. He is still Shaq and will be shaq-dominant for atleast 1 year maybe 2 or 3 more(however unlikely) What i dont understand is why give up a good shot at a ring with shaq now for an uncertain shot at a ring in the future. If that's the case, bench Big Ben and start darko.

OK I am only saying this if there was no sign and trade. If Kobe would have done a sign and trade, then my theory is totally wrong.

I think (and it looks like the Lakers thought this too) that Kobe is so immature and selfish he would have taken less money and signed with another team without doing a sign and trade. That means they would have gotten zero in return for Kobe.

OK so they lose his cap number, right? Well true, but Shaq is still eating up well over 50% of your cap space the next two years with his big contract. When you toss in the other players contracts for this year, you would have roughly $5 million in cap space.

No superstar player will come to play for that little of money. You might get some old broken down guys like they did with Payton and Malone the year before, but no superstar or anyone close to Kobes talent.

So now you have Shaq, who is a great player, and other guys like: Chucky Atkins, Devan Goerge, Luke Walton, Brian Cook, Jumaine Jones, Sasha Vujacic, and Slava Medvedenko. Not a very good team is it? You are golden at center, but the rest is crap. Toss in a decent FA signing and its still not that good.

San Antonio shreds that team. So does Phoenix and Seattle. Denver beats them and so does Dallas. No way they even come close to a ring.

So in two years Shaq needs a new contract. No other big contracts come off the books, so they are basically in the same boat as before, but its two years later. Then Shaq retires in another few years and they are back at square one rebuilding. All they did by keeping Kobe was to start the rebuilding process now instead of a few years from now without any new rings.

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