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Yoda

A thread on Tram

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Not to be an appologist, but while reading lastnights game thread, several comments struck me as being overly objective and I wanted to clear some things up.

Originally posted by TigersMeow79

Can anyone understand Tram? Munson has a great game last night and is sitting tonight. Pena has a great game and they keep him in the lineup. :confused:

Originally posted by tigersrok

it's been evident since spring training what camp Munson was in. I don't think Eric ever had a fair shot this year.

This is very untrue. Muson was given plenty of time to show something and the only thing he showed was his ability to swing at every pitch that came within 2 feet of the strike zone. I think the guy has a lot of potential but I'm pretty sure DD has given up on him, and has probably recomended that Tram start getting other players into the game. He was given a second chance, and has only gotten worse. It's time to move on and I don't think it's fair to place all of the blame on the manager.

Originally posted by tigersrok

I am so fed up with Tram. Wasting outs trying to play small ball in a game that has seen 18 runs scored already, bringing German and Levine in in the situations he did, not having a lefty up in the bullpen in the 2nd game at Cleveland when Yan didn't have it and he had to face 2 lefties with the tying run at third in the bottom of the 8th with 2 outs. Please get a real manager in here next year!!!

When he had Raburn bunt, you have to look at more than just the score. You have a guy with zero ML experience. In a game as close as this one way, it makes sense to have him sacrafice. He has not had a great minor league career. In fact, he had a bad first half this year even. He's gotten hot over the last couple moths, but hasn't yet proven that he will be a good ML hitter. I don't think need to let him swing in that situation, in a close game, no matter how high the score is. It isn't his fault that he has a crappy bullpen either. Complaining about him bringing in a particular reliever makes little to no sense.

It seems to me that a lot of people here just look for reasons to complain about the manager instead of looking at the whole picture. If you feel you are, fine. I just want to point this out in hopes that it will help some people realise that it's not always his fault, and that a situation is not always what it seems.

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Thanks Yoda. I "felt" this way about these issues on the game thread last night but I was unable to articulate it. Glad you're around.

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Very nice post Yoda. Every manager is second guessed, and i am sure Tram cringes at thought of which bullpen stiff to trot out. It has to be hard to try to figure out who out of Levine, German, Ennis and so on won't get shelled when he makes the call to the pen.

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I like Tram as a manager and I definately understand sitting Munson and playing Inge instead. I will never understand the whole infatuation with Norton though. I think Norton must have had some comprimising pictures or something.

It's easy to second guess a manager's strategic descisions or his handling of the bullpen when we know what the results were. We don't know and never will know all of the factors that go into making those descisons.

I'm very impressed with the leadership Tram has brought to the team. Most people probably would have had a nervous breakdown managing last year's team but Tram held them together and the team chemistry still seems very good. I think Trammell has the respect of his players and it's not just anyone who can earn the respect of talented millionaires.

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A fair chance would have been a comparable number of at-bats to his corner infield mate...Carlos Pena...instead he's gotten nearly 150 at-bats less.....

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How do you know how Munson would have played if he had gotten the benefit of consistent at bats, as Pena has. It's hard to hit well when you are being used as sporadically as Munson has been. You guys say he's had a fair shot? He hits a double and a homer the last game in Cleveland and has been benched the last two days. That would NEVER happen to Pena. Tram doesn't like Munson so he won't play, no matter if he has a good game or a poor game.

As for my comments on the game thread, I'm not going to get into that. I try very hard to not mention things that Tram does that bother me because I know people on the board don't appreciate it, but sometimes I just have to vent. He's a horrible strategic manager and no post such as this one will ever convince me otherwise.

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Instead of Munson versus Pena. How about Munson versus Monroe ? Monroe rode the bench at the beginning of the season. He hit himself into more playing team and got a regular spot by the end of the season. Munson had the same opportunity and didn't take advantage of it. I would have liked to have seen Munson play more too but I don't think it's true he got screwed He got treated similarly to most young players on other teams.

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Munson may have gotten more AB's if his defense wasn't so brutal. He was hurting the team in the field as well as at the plate. Pena was at least providing capable defense when his offensive production was not up to par.

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I can't fault much Trammell has done this year. Have there been times he's done things that had me scratching my head? Sure. But generally I don't see much wrong with what he does. He's had to find a delicate balance of trying to give people a chance to prove themselves while at the same time making the players earn their PT. And somewhere in that balance he's trying to do those things and win ball games.

Trammell has done a pretty good job I felt giving people an opportunity to play. He found a spot for Inge. Most of us blasted him at season's start for it (including myself) and he's proven himself. Infante sat the bench until given an opportunity due to Vina. He's capitalized. Munson was given ample opportunity and when pushed by Inge (a guy we all ridiculed last year) at third he failed to outproduce Inge. Pena struggled for about 3/5ths of the season but when given a chance late he's produced. Monroe was benched and had to earn his PT and found a way to do it. Thames started slow - it would've been easy to bench him. Trammell didn't and Thames showed somethign for awhile before cooling off lately. He's even found ways to get Smith in the lineup lately.

We were looking for some wins this year but this was still clearly a rebuilding year. We have people here that still have huge question marks concerning their careers here and what they can bring to the table. I think Trammell has done a very good job trying to balance those concerns along with trying to win games and making players produce to keep their jobs.

It's so easy to rip a manager for things not working - especially when something fails. But because one decision fails doesn't mean if the manager did the opposite it would've succeeded. People for some reason create this mindset in sports. And that is so untrue. If one decision fails it doesn't mean doing the opposite would've succeeded. It could've failed just as well. Armchair managers will never admit that.

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Originally posted by DTroppens

It's so easy to rip a manager for things not working - especially when something fails. But because one decision fails doesn't mean if the manager did the opposite it would've succeeded. People for some reason create this mindset in sports. And that is so untrue. If one decision fails it doesn't mean doing the opposite would've succeeded. It could've failed just as well. Armchair managers will never admit that.

No one is saying that the opposite move would have succeeded for sure. I am saying that Tram doesn't make sound baseball moves.

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Munson is just another reminder of the complete failure of the Randy Smith era. This guy was drafted 3rd overall because of his great hitting. He's never gonna be much more than a .230 hitter, he's just not that good. Anyone as strong as him is going to hit 20 HR with enough at bats. At least Pena can catch a ball.

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Originally posted by tigersrok

No one is saying that the opposite move would have succeeded for sure. I am saying that Tram doesn't make sound baseball moves.

Let me ask, Casey Stengel, what would you consider a "sound baseball move?"

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Originally posted by tigersrok

How do you know how Munson would have played if he had gotten the benefit of consistent at bats, as Pena has. It's hard to hit well when you are being used as sporadically as Munson has been. You guys say he's had a fair shot? He hits a double and a homer the last game in Cleveland and has been benched the last two days. That would NEVER happen to Pena. Tram doesn't like Munson so he won't play, no matter if he has a good game or a poor game.

If Tram hates Munson so much, why was he the starting 3B all season last year until he was injured? Why is he still on the roster, and not cut loose? And haven't you seen him at 3B? Inge, by far, is the better option. He's a much better fielder, he's more accurate by far, and his bat is better. Munson had his chance.

And concerning the comparison between Pena and Munson, Pena's bat has come around in the second half of the season and he's leading the team in HRs. His fielding has been sterling at times. If Munson had those credentials, he'd be the every day 3B. Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-Munson. I actually like Eric Munson, but it just looks like he's not gonna cut it at 3B in a Tiger uniform. Maybe they can package him as part of a trade, and he can go back to 1B where he belongs. I'd love to see him flourish (when not playing the Tigers).

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Should we have just alternated Pena and Munson every game? Or should we have sat Young and White at DH to get Munson in the game? Those are tough questions

We couldn't go any farther with Munson playing 3b. That had been played out. He can't handle it. Him playing 3b was only a way to get him at bats while we weren't being competitive anyway. He could never play 3b for a team that is trying to be .500 or above.

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Originally posted by tigersfan25

Let me ask, Casey Stengel, what would you consider a "sound baseball move?"

Let me ask, smart *****, do you actually expect me to answer you when you phrase the post like you did?

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Originally posted by IdahoBert

If Tram hates Munson so much, why was he the starting 3B all season last year until he was injured? Why is he still on the roster, and not cut loose? And haven't you seen him at 3B? Inge, by far, is the better option. He's a much better fielder, he's more accurate by far, and his bat is better. Munson had his chance.

And concerning the comparison between Pena and Munson, Pena's bat has come around in the second half of the season and he's leading the team in HRs. His fielding has been sterling at times. If Munson had those credentials, he'd be the every day 3B. Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-Munson. I actually like Eric Munson, but it just looks like he's not gonna cut it at 3B in a Tiger uniform. Maybe they can package him as part of a trade, and he can go back to 1B where he belongs. I'd love to see him flourish (when not playing the Tigers).

But Pena was still playing regularly in the first half when he was not hitting well. The same sort of grace period to figure it out was not provided to Munson. Tram has been trying to find people to replace him all year. I said it before, earlier in this thread, but it's hard to hit well when you play as sporadically as Munson has this year. I just have a big problem with how Munson hasn't gotten anywhere near the same chance as Pena. And I think it's been overstated how good Inge is defensively at third. Sure, he's been better than Munson but from watching the games he hasn't been as good as people are making it seem. He also doesn't have the power to play third base on a regular basis and has never hit in the past, so why not get Munson some at bats. The power is there. And after Dmitri Young, he was the second best offensive player on our team relative to his position last year.

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Originally posted by tigersrok

Let me ask, smart *****, do you actually expect me to answer you when you phrase the post like you did?

As a matter of fact, I did.

Now answer the question. You are ALWAYS questioning Tram's moves, but you never seem to come up with anything that you would do that would be better. So lets hear it, Casey. I am waiting with baited breath.

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Originally posted by tigersfan25

As a matter of fact, I did.

Now answer the question. You are ALWAYS questioning Tram's moves, but you never seem to come up with anything that you would do that would be better. So lets hear it, Casey. I am waiting with baited breath.

Huh? I did just what you said I didn't on the game thread last night. Go back and read it if you want an answer because I'm not going to get into it again today with you Tram apologists. That whole argument is dead as far as I'm concerned.

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Originally posted by tigersrok

Huh? I did just what you said I didn't on the game thread last night. Go back and read it if you want an answer because I'm not going to get into it again today with you Tram apologists. That whole argument is dead as far as I'm concerned.

Tram apologist? Hardly. The man has a crappy bullpen.

BTW, if he'd have left Jamie Walker in, and had he coughed up the game, you would be b*tching that we didn't bring someone else in.

But, I digress. There is no chance of me winning an argument with you, because you are the self anointed "arm chair QB" who is always right with managerial decisions, while Trammell sucks and always makes horrible decisions.

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Originally posted by tigersfan25

Tram apologist? Hardly. The man has a crappy bullpen.

BTW, if he'd have left Jamie Walker in, and had he coughed up the game, you would be b*tching that we didn't bring someone else in.

But, I digress. There is no chance of me winning an argument with you, because you are the self anointed "arm chair QB" who is always right with managerial decisions, while Trammell sucks and always makes horrible decisions.

Hardly, I'm disgusted by a lot of Trammell's moves as they happen. I just keep it to myself though, because people don't appreciate it if you dare question any of Trammell's decisions. Criticizing the players is fine and okay, but questioning the situations our '84 hero puts them into is apparently off limits in the minds of people on this board. I only joined the conversation last night after another poster posted his opinion. I wasn't going to say a word because I don't like getting into it with all the Tram apologists. That's because I believe I am the one who is fighting a losing battle. You will always say that it's because Tram has a bad bullpen. There's always an excuse why Tram couldn't have made a better decision in the game.

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Originally posted by tigersrok

Hardly, I'm disgusted by a lot of Trammell's moves as they happen. I just keep it to myself though, because people don't appreciate it if you dare question any of Trammell's decisions. Criticizing the players is fine and okay, but questioning the situations our '84 hero puts them into is apparently off limits in the minds of people on this board. I only joined the conversation last night after another poster posted his opinion. I wasn't going to say a word because I don't like getting into it with all the Tram apologists. That's because I believe I am the one who is fighting a losing battle. You will always say that it's because Tram has a bad bullpen. There's always an excuse why Tram couldn't have made a better decision in the game.

I don't think people's defense of Trammell has that much to do with his being a hero in the 80s. That might sway some people but others look at the Tiger players and they don't think Trammell has a lot of good options.

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Originally posted by tigersrok

Criticizing the players is fine and okay, but questioning the situations our '84 hero puts them into is apparently off limits in the minds of people on this board. I only joined the conversation last night after another poster posted his opinion. I wasn't going to say a word because I don't like getting into it with all the Tram apologists. That's because I believe I am the one who is fighting a losing battle. You will always say that it's because Tram has a bad bullpen. There's always an excuse why Tram couldn't have made a better decision in the game.

First of all, I don't criticize players that much. I have actually called out folks like Hamilton's Finests who over do it with Gary Knotts.

Second of all, I was 6 years old in 1984. I don't remember the Series that much, so it really doesn't affect my judgement on Tram all that much.

And third of all, what would you do with a bad bullpen? You would probably lose too.

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