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B.Higginson

Phil Jackson = OWNED!

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Send this article to Joe Dumars & ask him to blow it up & put it in the locker room.

Man, I want to see the Lakers lose as bad as I want the Pistons to win.

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Originally posted by Mikeshoe21

Not everyone cherrypicks jobs just to take other coaches teams toa championship....stat padder

zing! Mr. I'll go where the superstars already play.

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I kind of agree with him. The Pistons are not a great team by any stretch of the imagination. The Pistons are a good team in a bad conference. Put the Pistons in the West and LA, San Antonio, Minnesota, and Sacremento are better then the Pistons and maybe Dallas. Plus by time Darko starts to blossom (if ever) Brown will be long gone.

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Translation....I don't know why you'd take a job where you actually had to do some work to win a championship.

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Originally posted by Deleterious

I kind of agree with him. The Pistons are not a great team by any stretch of the imagination. The Pistons are a good team in a bad conference. Put the Pistons in the West and LA, San Antonio, Minnesota, and Sacremento are better then the Pistons and maybe Dallas. Plus by time Darko starts to blossom (if ever) Brown will be long gone.

We'll see. I TOTALLY disagree with you here. I don't care if it IS the JV, getting to the finals is no small feat. "good" teams don't make it. Just ask Jersey and Indy.

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Yeah, I remember this from back then. Jackson and Brown (woah...) apparently don't really like each other, so that was Jackson basically taking an opportunity to be a dick. Big surprise.

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Originally posted by DetroitFolly

We'll see. I TOTALLY disagree with you here. I don't care if it IS the JV, getting to the finals is no small feat. "good" teams don't make it. Just ask Jersey and Indy.

Ok you can say Detroit is a "great" team, in the Eastern conference. Not in the NBA. Since you think that NJ and Indiana are only good because they didnt make the finals, put Detroit in the west. Would they still come out of the west? I think not. In theory you could have the best 8 teams in the NBA in one conference. So because the other conference sends a team to the finals does that make them great? I think not.

For a while in the NHL, everyone knew whoever won the west would beat up on the east. So Dallas, Detroit and Colorado did just that (minus the devils a few times). Most years all three of those teams were better then any team in the east, but they couldnt all go to the finals because they were in the same conference. So does that make the team that came out of the east better then the two losers in the west? I think not.

Thats not even mentioning that if Kidd was healthy, Pistons probably dont win game 6. If Tinsley or O'Neal are healthy, things could of been very different in that series too.

This is a good team, not great though. And thats ok, because they are still building and changing the team around.

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Deleterious, I couldn't disagree agree with you more. Detroit is a great team. This is likely the best defensive team EVER in the NBA. That's opinion, so feel free to disagree, but if nothing else at least the shattered records show something. So does defense not contribute to being great, or do we have to have a 40 pt scorer on the team? Tell that to TMac who's team has the #1 pick in the draft (and I don't even want to get into "star power" since that is directly related to FGAs and popularity). I Guess offense isn't as important as the press would lead you to believe since Dallas and Miwaukee are sitting on their couches right now preparing to watch the finals.

And if you want to talk about "what ifs" for Kidd being hurt and statements like that, then how about Fisher's prayer shot? How about Cassell going down? How about Webber being gimpy? Does that mean that LA isn't a great team? I mean, they could've lost without that prayer shot just like you're saying we could've lost game 6.

Also, I have no clue how you can say with certainty that Dallas, Minnesota, Sacramento, San Antonio, or even LA are better. What do you base this on? I imagine it is opinion, so I'm going to go ahead and disagree with that opinion. Furthermore, I'll say that the only one of those comparisons that will be determined for sure is LA...and those games have yet to be played. So, what makes Minnesota better? Regular season record? Tell that to Indiana who some thought and still think is a great team. Is it this year's playoff record? Dallas is sitting at home, so I guess not. Or is it simply that we've heard so many times how the Pistons are weak and their opponents all just happen to shoot poorly every game by mere coincedence that we believe it. It seems to me that there is no pleasing some fans. How a team can make it to the finals (i.e., be one of the last 2 teams left standing in the entire league) and still be dogged by the press and even it's own fans is mind-boggling to me.

Sorry for the rant, and I'm not trying to be a jerk by commenting on your post Deleterious, but the Piston disrespect parade is everywhere I turn lately and it's ticking me off.

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Originally posted by Betrayer

Deleterious, I couldn't disagree agree with you more. Detroit is a great team. This is likely the best defensive team EVER in the NBA. That's opinion, so feel free to disagree, but if nothing else at least the shattered records show something. So does defense not contribute to being great, or do we have to have a 40 pt scorer on the team? Tell that to TMac who's team has the #1 pick in the draft (and I don't even want to get into "star power" since that is directly related to FGAs and popularity). I Guess offense isn't as important as the press would lead you to believe since Dallas and Miwaukee are sitting on their couches right now preparing to watch the finals.

And if you want to talk about "what ifs" for Kidd being hurt and statements like that, then how about Fisher's prayer shot? How about Cassell going down? How about Webber being gimpy? Does that mean that LA isn't a great team? I mean, they could've lost without that prayer shot just like you're saying we could've lost game 6.

Also, I have no clue how you can say with certainty that Dallas, Minnesota, Sacramento, San Antonio, or even LA are better. What do you base this on? I imagine it is opinion, so I'm going to go ahead and disagree with that opinion. Furthermore, I'll say that the only one of those comparisons that will be determined for sure is LA...and those games have yet to be played. So, what makes Minnesota better? Regular season record? Tell that to Indiana who some thought and still think is a great team. Is it this year's playoff record? Dallas is sitting at home, so I guess not. Or is it simply that we've heard so many times how the Pistons are weak and their opponents all just happen to shoot poorly every game by mere coincedence that we believe it. It seems to me that there is no pleasing some fans. How a team can make it to the finals (i.e., be one of the last 2 teams left standing in the entire league) and still be dogged by the press and even it's own fans is mind-boggling to me.

Sorry for the rant, and I'm not trying to be a jerk by commenting on your post Deleterious, but the Piston disrespect parade is everywhere I turn lately and it's ticking me off.

I will answer this in two posts, first one Pistons, second one TMac.

First off, dont apologize! Thats what this place is for, to share different opinions. You are one of the best posters here, its not like you are just some idiot that spouts off.

Yes defense is very important, but great defense does not make a great team. You might be able to say they are a great defensive team, but that doesnt make them a great team as a whole. I really dont see how you call a team great that hasnt won a championship. And I dont think I called the Lakers great, but now that you mention it, yes they are a great team. Want to know why? They have won 3 of the last 4 championships with basically the same core players (To me Kobe and Shaq are there only core players, the rest are just there to fill roster spots). So that team that won 3 of the last 4, with basically the same players, went out and got a HOF power forward, and a perenial all star PG. Thats why the Lakers are great.

Yes the Lakers could of very easily and should of lost that game with Fishers shot. One huge difference. That wouldnt of knocked them out of the playoffs, our game 6 would of.

Now, why I think those teams are better then us. First, Minnesota beat us twice this year, so did Dallas I think. Split with SA and Sac I believe. But yes, most of that is based on opinion as you said. I think in a 7 game series those teams beat us.

You said there is no pleasing some fans. I assume you mean me. I am pleased actually. I think the turn around by Dumars and company is amazing. Where this team was 4 years ago to now, simply amazing. But that doesnt mean I cant think the Lakers will beat us does it? I dont understand the mentality around here that if someone isnt 100% in the Pistons corner they are somehow against them. I have watched every playoff game. I root for them every time they play. How does me stating my opinon make me less then pleased? If someone put a gun to your head and said, "Pick one, Lakers or Pistons in a 7 game series, and if you get it wrong you die." Would you really take the Pistons? I thought the point of this MB was to discuss different opinions. Would it be better if we all came here and yelled PISTONS RULE!.?

And making it to the finals is a good accomplishment. Its a hard long road to get there. But getting there doesnt make you one of the best two teams in the league automatically. Like I said, the majority of the best teams could be in one conference and they would eliminate each other in the playoffs.

There, its long and boring and filled with misspelled words I am sure, but thats my reply :cool:

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I'm not done yet! Now the TMac point.

You said his high offensive output was due to high amounts of FGA's.

That might be true, but the guy shoots 45% for his career. And he isnt a guy posting on the blocks and shooting from 5 feet each possesion. He is a slasher and a jump shooter. Thats a decent number for jumpshooters. Reggie Miller only shoots 47% for his career and everyone raves about what a great shooter he is.

Plus his last 4 years he has averaged 26,25,32,28. He is a great offensive player. Does that win someone games? No of course not. He plays on an awful team.

Star power plays a big part in winning a championship. Name the last team to win one without a superstar? The Pistons dont have one right now. Rip is right there knocking on the door and to be honest, after his playoff run, he might be one now.

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Minnesota's second win against us came when Sheed had to sit out the second half and we still only lost by a couple. We split the home and home against the Lakers, San Antonio and Dallas. We lost twice to Sacramento but Sheed wasn't on the team then. So those are the 5 best teams in the West and our combined record was 3-7, with all but one loss being when we were without our best player which was an away game. Doesn't sound to me like we're outclassed at all.

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Originally posted by DaBishop

Minnesota's second win against us came when Sheed had to sit out the second half and we still only lost by a couple. We split the home and home against the Lakers, San Antonio and Dallas. We lost twice to Sacramento but Sheed wasn't on the team then. So those are the 5 best teams in the West and our combined record was 3-7, with all but one loss being when we were without our best player which was an away game. Doesn't sound to me like we're outclassed at all.

So we have a 30% winning percantage against them and we are not outclassed? Any coach that posts a 30% winning percantage over 2 or 3 years gets canned. And Rasheed is not our best player.

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Rasheed is our best overall player when it comes to what he brings to both sides of the floor. And having played only 1 game with him on the floor shows that it's an unknown factor. We were 20+ and 4 with him on the floor in the second half of the season. Without him we were 3-6 and yes definitely not going to win, but we weren't going to win the East without him. To think that this team isn't twice as good with him on the floor isn't logical. Those loses were all by 6 or less, and 4 were by 3 or less. 4 of them were away. 9 of 10 games were played before we had Sheed. To say that we can't play with those teams when we played them tight in every game we had against them and without Rasheed is just ridiculous.

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Originally posted by DaBishop

Rasheed is our best overall player when it comes to what he brings to both sides of the floor. And having played only 1 game with him on the floor shows that it's an unknown factor. We were 20+ and 4 with him on the floor in the second half of the season. Without him we were 3-6 and yes definitely not going to win, but we weren't going to win the East without him. To think that this team isn't twice as good with him on the floor isn't logical. Those loses were all by 6 or less, and 4 were by 3 or less. 4 of them were away. 9 of 10 games were played before we had Sheed. To say that we can't play with those teams when we played them tight in every game we had against them and without Rasheed is just ridiculous.

First, I never said we couldnt play with them. I simply said they would beat us in a 7 game series. Second, Rip is by far our best player, then Ben and then probably Rasheed. Rips defense is vastly under rated and his offense is, well I am sure you have been watching the playoffs. Third, we are twice as good with Rasheed? Do you mean we would of won twice as many games if he was here all year? Because we were on pace to win 46-49 games without him probably. I totally agree he changed us around as a team, and we are much better for it. But twice as good?

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Originally posted by Deleterious

First, I never said we couldnt play with them. I simply said they would beat us in a 7 game series. Second, Rip is by far our best player, then Ben and then probably Rasheed. Rips defense is vastly under rated and his offense is, well I am sure you have been watching the playoffs. Third, we are twice as good with Rasheed? Do you mean we would of won twice as many games if he was here all year? Because we were on pace to win 46-49 games without him probably. I totally agree he changed us around as a team, and we are much better for it. But twice as good?

twice as good doesn't mean you win twice as many games first of all, and second of all it's a figure of speech. What does get affected is the quality of victories, and the quality of overall play. We were a second tier team and are now a first tier team. Rip is a very good player, but I'm not ready to give him the superstar status that many are giving him yet. Afterr last years playoffs everyone was crowning Billups our best player and Prince as the second coming. Rasheed gives you 16 pts 8 boards 2 blocks a game and improves our defense tremendously and he does it all year long. Rip has been great but he was up and down this past season averaging his lowest point total in a few years and he's a scorer, no matter how much people want to say his defense is vastly improved. Ben is defensively a stud but on the offensive side he's a joke. Sheed is a force on both sides. I stand by him being our best player. When he plays well we don't lose. When Rip or Ben play well we need the rest of the team to step up as well to win.

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and I'm not saying he does it on his own, I'm saying that when he plays well the rest of the team plays better because of what he opens up for them when he's playing well.

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Rips scoring was down this year, but still a point above his career average. His assists were up, his steals were up. And here is why he is a superstar. He improved his game come playoff time. No other Piston has done that. Plus he is consistent. Rasheed disapears some games. Rip hasnt had a game below 20 points yet. Rasheed only averaged 13 a game for us in the regular season and same come playoff time.

I look at it like this. We could and might lose Rasheed this summer. It wont bug me that much if he goes. If we lost Ben or Rip I would be worried. But you are right, Rasheed brings a lot to the table, and we do seem to play better when he does. Too bad he isnt as consistent as Rip.

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I think the Pistons qualify as one of the top 5 teams in the NBA no matter how you shake it - probably top three.

I can't think of anything worse than this...

1. L.A. Lakers

2. San Antonio

3. Detroit

I don't think putting Detroit No. 2 in the entire NBA is a ridiculous claim and I'm not willing to say we don't have a shot in this series like so many seem to be.

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Maybe I'm getting goofy, but I'm starting to believe a bit more that this can be done.

If Chauncey plays at all near his potential...this could be a really tough series for L.A.

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Originally posted by DetroitFolly

Maybe I'm getting goofy, but I'm starting to believe a bit more that this can be done.

I'm getting the same feeling. Pistons in 5!

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I still don't buy into "star power". It sells commercials and makes ratings go up, but it doesn't correlate to a playoff winning team (T-Mac, AI, Dirk, Webber, Mashburn, Marbury, and on and on). Look at T-Mac in comparison to Rip. This year T-Mac scored 28 ppg on 23.4 FGAs. Rip scored 17.6 ppg on 14.9 ppg. That means Rip scored 1.18 points per shot. Now, give him the same number of shots as T-Mac (23.4) and Rip scores 27.6 ppg. Hmmmmm...seems to me that it's a lot easier to have "star power" when you are a ball hog or on a bad team. We have a team in which 3 or 4 of the guys could be "stars" on another team if they got 24 FGAs, but here you are looking at a real team, therefore the "detroit doesn't have the stars to win" argument doesn't hold water in my eyes. That was really my point in bringing up T-Mac.

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