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Shaggy Ry

Bertuzzi KO's Moore with a cheapshot...

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Originally posted by MotownRandy

Before that last article, I was going to say that there could be criminal charges. Bertuzzi will get much more than a suspension. That was assault.

If that was assault, then every single fight in the NHL or any other sport, is assault as well.

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Originally posted by Deleterious

If that was assault, then every single fight in the NHL or any other sport, is assault as well.

No, that wasn't any fight in the NHL. Moore was not facing him. Bertuzzi slammed his head into the ice too. He was trying to bait him into a fight and he wouldn't so he hit him from behind, and that's assault. Moore had already faught Matt Cooke earlier in the game and this was the second time they played each other since the Naslund incident.

THE MAN HAS A BROKEN NECK!

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Originally posted by Deleterious

If that was assault, then every single fight in the NHL or any other sport, is assault as well.

That's crap. The guys back was turned. He didn't want to fight. In normal hockey fights both guys are involved. There is a huge difference.

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I will be pretty shocked if they charge him with any crimial activity, and quite dissappointed as well.

Sports are a unique environement where people do things that are NOT acceptable in normal society.

If you are running down the street trying to get somewhere and a guy is standing in your way is it acceptable to run full speed into him? Knock him down to the ground and then just walk away? Of course not, yet that happens all the time in baseball and a catcher tries to block the plate.

If you see a guy running down a field, is it acceptable to run into him at full speed and level him, trying to knock whatever he has in his hands out of them? Of course not, yet this happens all the time in football.

Let's say you meet some guy in a building. Is it okay to start swinging punches at him trying to knock him out? Happens all the time in Boxing.

Fights happen all the time in hockey too. Punches are thrown when normally guys wouldn't be fighting. It's part of the sport and to try and bring criminal charges into the arena would be stupid.

As Deleterious stated, if this is assult, then every fight in the NHL is assult. Was this one different? Certainly. But that doesn't mean the other fights aren't assult as well according to the laws. If this guy is charged with a crime, should we charge any batter who attackes a pitcher with assult? What about pitchers who intentionally bean a batter with the ball?

But this guy has a serious injury, so that makes it worse, right? No. If you look at just the results of a situation, then what do you do the next time someone throws a sucker punch like that and instead of the guy landing face first he lands on his side and doesn't injury his back. Is that guy less deserving of a punishment simply because his victum was lucky while Moore wasn't? Or what happens if one player bumps into the other and the other guys falls funny breaking his neck. Is the first one guilty of assult dispite the fact that he did nothing wrong according to hockey rules? He should be if you look purely at results of an incident.

What his guy did was a cheap shot, no quesiton. What he did was a serious thing and the NHL should deal with him harshly, in my opinion. But to bring normal society laws into a special situations like sports is wrong. Every player is aware of what is allows and what happens in his or her specific arena of sport. He or she accepts the situation by voluntarily entering that area to play.

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what if Bertuzzi took off his skate and slit his throat? Where do you draw the line?

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Hockey is now full of a bunch of players who can't play the game, so they need to find way of making in the game. Also because they tryed to take fighting out the game, players are taking the frustration out different ways, so incidents like this happen more often.

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Originally posted by Oblong

what if Bertuzzi took off his skate and slit his throat? Where do you draw the line?

Well, if it happened during the game then I guess it's A-OK...

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Originally posted by American League

Hockey is now full of a bunch of players who can't play the game, so they need to find way of making in the game.

I would hardly classify Bertuzzi as a player who needs to find another way to make it in the NHL. He is one of the most skilled forwards in the game....

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Originally posted by Shaggy Ry

Colorado is reporting that Steve Moore has a cracked vertabrae - I wonder where it happened - it looked from the punch that Moore was out, however he put his hands out to catch his fall, however Bertuzzi's fat *** fell on top of him and smashed his head in the ice and then punched him in the head one more time before the big pile up.

FWIW...I do think he was out before he hit the ice. His hands did hit the ice first, but they did NOT look like he was trying to catch his fall. The hands hit plam up. I think conscious reaction would have landed them palms down.

??? not a biggie, but he looked out when he fell.

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Originally posted by Oblong

what if Bertuzzi took off his skate and slit his throat? Where do you draw the line?

Is taking your skate off something that regularly happens in Hockey and is generally allowed by the NHL with minor penalties at worst?

Listen, it was a cheap shot, and certainly needs to be addressed by the NHL. I don't question that. But fighting is for all intents and purposes allowed in the NHL. Everyone who is a hockey fan understands that it's part of the game. Heck, I'm not a huge hockey fan at all and even I know that.

While I'm sure that fighting is not included in the NHL rule book, the NHL's actions state that it's part of the game. The players know this, the players accept the risk involved when they lace up their stakes.

If you want to play "draw the line," we can go both ways with it. If you think that criminal procecution is valid here, is it valid for any fight? If not, why not? Is it valid anytime a player check another player? Should we be pursueing criminal charges everytime a hockey player hits another with a stick?

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I heard the retaliation was for Moore's hit on Naslund. One of th Canuck players said Moore had a bounty on him.

Why didn't Naslund retaliate?

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Tony Kornholeheiser just mentioned that Wilbon told him Bertuzzi will be suspended two years? I just caught the end of it while on the phone. Can anyone confirm or deny?

"O'doyle Rules"

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pulling on someone's sweater and then hitting them in the face from behind and then jumping on top of htem as they lay on the ice is not something that usually, if ever, happens in hockey.

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Originally posted by RedRamage

I will be pretty shocked if they charge him with any crimial activity, and quite dissappointed as well.

Sports are a unique environement where people do things that are NOT acceptable in normal society.

If you are running down the street trying to get somewhere and a guy is standing in your way is it acceptable to run full speed into him? Knock him down to the ground and then just walk away? Of course not, yet that happens all the time in baseball and a catcher tries to block the plate.

If you see a guy running down a field, is it acceptable to run into him at full speed and level him, trying to knock whatever he has in his hands out of them? Of course not, yet this happens all the time in football.

Let's say you meet some guy in a building. Is it okay to start swinging punches at him trying to knock him out? Happens all the time in Boxing.

Fights happen all the time in hockey too. Punches are thrown when normally guys wouldn't be fighting. It's part of the sport and to try and bring criminal charges into the arena would be stupid.

As Deleterious stated, if this is assult, then every fight in the NHL is assult. Was this one different? Certainly. But that doesn't mean the other fights aren't assult as well according to the laws. If this guy is charged with a crime, should we charge any batter who attackes a pitcher with assult? What about pitchers who intentionally bean a batter with the ball?

But this guy has a serious injury, so that makes it worse, right? No. If you look at just the results of a situation, then what do you do the next time someone throws a sucker punch like that and instead of the guy landing face first he lands on his side and doesn't injury his back. Is that guy less deserving of a punishment simply because his victum was lucky while Moore wasn't? Or what happens if one player bumps into the other and the other guys falls funny breaking his neck. Is the first one guilty of assult dispite the fact that he did nothing wrong according to hockey rules? He should be if you look purely at results of an incident.

What his guy did was a cheap shot, no quesiton. What he did was a serious thing and the NHL should deal with him harshly, in my opinion. But to bring normal society laws into a special situations like sports is wrong. Every player is aware of what is allows and what happens in his or her specific arena of sport. He or she accepts the situation by voluntarily entering that area to play.

No offense intended but that has to be the most ridiculous argument justifying a chicken**** player pulling a chicken**** move. Now I know you aren't justifying the action but rather trying to not justify criminal prosecution. Nowhere, in any sport is it acceptable to do what he did. Yes, fighting is part of the game. Moore fought his fight in the first period. He thought he was done. He didn't want any more of anyone on that team. Yet Bertuzzi felt it necessary to jump him from behind and slam his face into the ice. I don't care what sport or what life situation, that is assault.

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Originally posted by lesgoblu02

No offense intended but that has to be the most ridiculous argument justifying a chicken**** player pulling a chicken**** move. Now I know you aren't justifying the action but rather trying to not justify criminal prosecution. Nowhere, in any sport is it acceptable to do what he did.

And I would agree with you. I am NOT saying that what Bertuzzi did is acceptable by NHL rules and should be punished appropriately. What I am saying is that all this was intended to be was a fight. True, it was a sucker punch, but have not we seen sucker punches in the past in the NHL? Were those all worthy of criminal punishment?

All I'm saying is that what happened was not grossly out of place in the NHL. (The end result certainly was, but throwing a punch is NOT unheard of in the NHL.) If you feel it is appropriate for criminal charges here, I'd like to hear what you feel about the following situations:

A fight in the MLB.

A player who injuries another in the NFL when making a questionable hit.

A flaggerant foul in the NBA that results in an injury.

If this is a criminally punishable offense, it seems to me that all the above should be at as well. I would even argue that any person who starts a fight in the NHL could be held criminally liable.

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Originally posted by Oblong

pulling on someone's sweater and then hitting them in the face from behind and then jumping on top of htem as they lay on the ice is not something that usually, if ever, happens in hockey.

Certainly this is a more extreme example of a fight in the NHL, but it is still just a fight. A fight that started with an unfair sucker punch, ended witha severe injury, but still an NHL fight that needs to be debt with by the NHL, not by criminal courts.

So, let's say that this isn't something that normally happens in the NHL. What would say about the following situations. Should any of these be a criminal situation? Why or why not?

- A player grabs the others jersey from behind. The second player turns and a fight happens.

- A player grabs the others jersey and swing a punch at this shoulder. A fight happens.

- A player grabs the others jersey and swings at his head getting in a glancing blow. A fight happens.

- A player grabs the others jersey and swings at his head getting a solid hit. A fight happens.

- A player grabs the others jersey and swings at his head getting a solid hit. The second player falls down. No fight happens, no serious injury to the second player.

- A player grabs the others jersey and swings at his head getting a solid hit. The second player falls down with a concussion, but it otherwise un injuries.

At what point do you change from a normal hockey fight to a criminal situation?

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Thats a silly premise. Its not even so much the hitting from behind (not to mention it was by a guy who outweighs the other guy by 40+ pounds) but the driving his head into the ice that was the assault. What he did has no place in hockey, it never has had a place in hockey and it never will have a place in hockey. To say its part of the game because fights happen is like saying charging the mound and hitting the pitcher in the head with your bat shouldnt be prosecuted because bats are part of the game of baseball.

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"A fight in the MLB."

- If a player jumps a guy from behind with premediatation and intent to injure without giving the guy a chance to fight back the yes, criminal charges may apply.

"A player who injuries another in the NFL when making a questionable hit."

- Football is a different animal than this situation. All hits take place within the action of the game at a very fast pace. Apples and oranges IMO. Now if someone were to spear another player with his helmet after the whistle then absolutely assault.

"A flaggerant foul in the NBA that results in an injury."

- again if there is premeditation and the other player is defenseless then maybe. Ask Kermit Washington or Rudy T about fighting in basketball.

The overlying theme here is you keep calling it a "fight". I don't know about anyone else but I don't call one guy beating the hell out of another while his back is turned a "fight". If this was to happen on the street who would go to jail? I highly doubt they would charge Moore with anything considering he was laying face down unconscious in a pool of his own blood. That's not a fight. It's called a mugging where I come from.

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then slicing a throat with a blade, as long as it's on the ice, could still be considered "just a fight"

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Originally posted by Oblong

then slicing a throat with a blade, as long as it's on the ice, could still be considered "just a fight"

Maybe in some peoples worlds, but not in mine.

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I agree, the point I'm making is that just because something is "within a fight" and fighting is generally accepted in the NHL doesn't mean criminal prosecution is unwarranted.

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Originally posted by MotownRandy

That's crap. The guys back was turned. He didn't want to fight. In normal hockey fights both guys are involved. There is a huge difference.

It is not crap, assault is defined as such:

A violent physical or verbal attack.

It says nothing about the other guys back turned. If I go up to a guy in a bar, face to face and hit him, its assault. Even if he wants to fight me, its assault. So by your standards every fight is assault, why not charge all of them?

I am not saying it wasnt cheap, it was. The whole thing was disgusting. When you enter a playing feild, you are playing by different rules then society has set, you are playing by the sports rules. Therefore the sport should govern itself and suspend him, or if the play was bad enough, ban him forever. This should not be settled in the court of law.

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But again, you didnt answer the question. Where is the line drawn from "sports world" to "real world"? If I guy, as oblong says, takes off his skate and stabs someone with it, should it only be handled by the "sports rules" because it happened while playing a sport?

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Originally posted by Mikeshoe21

But again, you didnt answer the question. Where is the line drawn from "sports world" to "real world"? If I guy, as oblong says, takes off his skate and stabs someone with it, should it only be handled by the "sports rules" because it happened while playing a sport?

I do understand your point. But you are comparing apples to oranges there. I dont think he went out and said, "I am going to break his neck". Taking a skate off and doing that, is very premeditated. His attack was also probably, but not to break his neck. I am sure he thought about going out and getting revenge. He didnt intendn to break his neck, I assume, but if you took your skate off and slit someones throat, you meant to kill him.

Not to mention how silly it is, to think a guy could take his skate off fast enough to do that. Why isnt a high stick considered an arrestable offense? A stick to the temple or wind pipe could kill someone within a few seconds, so where do you want to draw the line at?

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Where is the line drawn? I don't know for sure. I'll make an attempt here, though I'm sure there will be exceptions. (However, I'll note that one who thinks criminal punishments may be warranted here has indicated where the line should be drawn either. It goes both ways...)

Okay, where should the line be drawn?

First, look at what is acceptable in the game: I think we all agree that a "normal" fist fight between two players should come to a legal battle, even though as Deleterious pointed out it does meet the legal definite of assult. Hockey is a rough sport with a lot of physical hitting, so I would generally think one would need to get pretty heavily physical to cross the line. I would think that repeated hitting of a person who is incapacitated would be over the line. Simply hitting someone, even a sucker punch, while the game is going on is not crossing the line.

Second, what was used in the "assult": I wouldn't generally think a batter who charges the mound and hits a pitcher should be criminally prosecuted, but if he charged the mound with his bat and used it to repeatedly beat the guy, then that is crossing the line. But in hockey, sticks are used all the time to knock people around or push them. Occasionally they are even used to hit someone hard. One hit, even a pretty hard one, in my opinion should not warrant criminal proccedings. However, repeated hitting with the stick, especially if the opponent is unable to respond, is crossing the line. Using and item as a weapon (club, stick, bat, whatever...) beyond the normal game situation is crossing the line.

Third, what was the intent? If a guy is threating a person repeatedly and says that he intends to send the guy to the hospital or worse, and then acts on his talk, is crossing the line. A player who repeatedly hits a person who is obviously incapacitated is crossing the line.

Fourth, what where the results? This is a dangerous area...I don't want to give too much importance here, but is does make a bit of a difference. Obviously we'd never be having this discussion of legal proceedings if the hit had glanced off the shoulder rather than hitting the head/neck.

Well, like I said, this is a start and likely has plenty of holes.

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