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Mr.TaterSalad

Next GM/Coach chatter (formerly: Matt Patricia and Bob Quinn fired)

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22 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

It will be interesting to see now with Patricia gone if Bevell stops using AD and starts using Swift more.

This is the key thing to watch for throughout the rest of the season. How does the offense get called, and perform, without Patricia meddling. 

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adrian peterson should be nothing more than a goal line back for the lions.  swift and johnson should be getting every carry.

i hate all the running they do on 1st and 2d down, but if the bears are playing without akiem hicks on sunday, the lions should definitely be running the ball a ton.

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1 hour ago, NYLion said:

Yeah, it's probably wishful thinking on my part. I was just hoping that perhaps the hometown factor might lure him in. Better choice than the other "Michigan Man", speak about a guy who has a rigid system.

OTOH if he comes here and wins he wins he will be hailed as a miracle worker by not only Lion fans but any NFL fan that is aware of this organizations history. It won't take a superbowl either, just a couple of winning seasons, maybe a division title and a playoff win or two. He will be mentioned along with Scotty Bowman and Chuck Daley as one the best coaches in the states history.

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7 minutes ago, Stanley70 said:

OTOH if he comes here and wins he wins he will be hailed as a miracle worker by not only Lion fans but any NFL fan that is aware of this organizations history. It won't take a superbowl either, just a couple of winning seasons, maybe a division title and a playoff win or two. He will be mentioned along with Scotty Bowman and Chuck Daley as one the best coaches in the states history.

If the Lions ever win a super bowl, that head coach will go down as the best and most beloved person in the history of the state.  

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5 hours ago, Hongbit said:

Am I wrong to question how effective Bieniemy would be without Mahomes, Kelce, and Hill?   I would probably look impressive creating a system and calling plays for these guys.   

Correct. I also bet that Andy has a big hand in the offense still.

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I think a lot of what I want out of a GM is similar to what I want out of a coach. Two things we saw with Patricia and Quinn is that they both thought of themselves as the smartest guys in the league and both were married to essentially one way of doing business and refused to adapt. Do I want a GM with a plan and someone who can look into the future with their moves? Of course I do. But I don't want a GM who is so married to a plan or one way of thinking/doing business that it becomes a determine to this team. You have to be able to change course when something isn't working, a coaching hire, a personnel move, whatever.

Quinn thought he had it figured out better than anyone else and seemingly refuse to admit defeat and stayed the course on his plan, even as the ship went further down to the bottom of the ocean. Don't think you can outsmart the rest of the league either. Don't pick a Tight End at #8, don't go CB over a clearly better QB prospect, don't draft a rush LB and then use him in space to cover when you know he can't, if a guy has the slowest 40 time among corners in the draft consider passing on him, etc. If you think you are so far superior and smarter than everyone else in the league is, chances are you are not. Realize you have scout, personnel people, and other smart people to rely on and make changes to your philosophy and plan when needed.

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31 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I think a lot of what I want out of a GM is similar to what I want out of a coach. Two things we saw with Patricia and Quinn is that they both thought of themselves as the smartest guys in the league and both were married to essentially one way of doing business and refused to adapt. Do I want a GM with a plan and someone who can look into the future with their moves? Of course I do. But I don't want a GM who is so married to a plan or one way of thinking/doing business that it becomes a determine to this team. You have to be able to change course when something isn't working, a coaching hire, a personnel move, whatever.

Quinn thought he had it figured out better than anyone else and seemingly refuse to admit defeat and stayed the course on his plan, even as the ship went further down to the bottom of the ocean. Don't think you can outsmart the rest of the league either. Don't pick a Tight End at #8, don't go CB over a clearly better QB prospect, don't draft a rush LB and then use him in space to cover when you know he can't, if a guy has the slowest 40 time among corners in the draft consider passing on him, etc. If you think you are so far superior and smarter than everyone else in the league is, chances are you are not. Realize you have scout, personnel people, and other smart people to rely on and make changes to your philosophy and plan when needed.

Another thing, they had made the point themselves about marrying up scheme and personnel, then they draft the wrong personnel for their scheme! They put the CB's on islands, which is fine when you have a Darius Slay, but why would you draft slow corners who can't cover man because they're too slow? I'm looking more at Amani now that Teez is gone, and I think Okudah will be good in a better scheme. I think Amani can be better in a zone scheme with his size and length.

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i want a gm who drafts talented players and a coach who knows how to put them in a position to succeed.

i dont think the lions have ever had a combination of the two in my lifetime.

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2 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

 

Bevell has a lot to prove. And I suspect Stafford will want to make the statement that he is not done, not nearly, and that he is glad to have Patricia gone. 

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42 minutes ago, Buddha said:

i want a gm who drafts talented players and a coach who knows how to put them in a position to succeed.

i dont think the lions have ever had a combination of the two in my lifetime.

Part of that is the smartest guy in the room problem that the last two Lions GM's have faced. Taking Okudah over Tua, taking Hockenson over Burns or Bush (or Oliver or Sweat if you want to look at players having minimal success in year 2), taking Teez Tabor with the slowest 40 time among corners in the draft then asking him to play man, taking Brandon Pettigrew over OL (Alex Mack) or a WR in Randall Cobb, taking Eric Ebron over OBJ and Aaron Donald, etc. A GM should always be certain in the moves they are making and should trust the people and processes they have in place. But when they get cute, when they think they are smarter than the people around them trying to help like scouts, player personnel, coaches and not relying on their individual expertise and advice that's a big problem. Quinn for example was (according to Mike Valenti's reports) the only person who wanted to draft Okudah. Scouts and player personnel people were split between Tua and Simmons. When they think they know more than everyone else in the league about a particular guy (think Bob Quinn saying he's watched more tape on Teez Tabor than any prospect ever) or about doing a particular task (evaluating and drafting players) that's also a problem. You aren't half as clever or as smart as you think you are. Quinn and Mayhew both thought of themselves as above their peers and reality smacked them down and said they were not.

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26 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Part of that is the smartest guy in the room problem that the last two Lions GM's have faced. Taking Okudah over Tua, taking Hockenson over Burns or Bush (or Oliver or Sweat if you want to look at players having minimal success in year 2), taking Teez Tabor with the slowest 40 time among corners in the draft then asking him to play man, taking Brandon Pettigrew over OL (Alex Mack) or a WR in Randall Cobb, taking Eric Ebron over OBJ and Aaron Donald, etc. A GM should always be certain in the moves they are making and should trust the people and processes they have in place. But when they get cute, when they think they are smarter than the people around them trying to help like scouts, player personnel, coaches and not relying on their individual expertise and advice that's a big problem. Quinn for example was (according to Mike Valenti's reports) the only person who wanted to draft Okudah. Scouts and player personnel people were split between Tua and Simmons. When they think they know more than everyone else in the league about a particular guy (think Bob Quinn saying he's watched more tape on Teez Tabor than any prospect ever) or about doing a particular task (evaluating and drafting players) that's also a problem. You aren't half as clever or as smart as you think you are. Quinn and Mayhew both thought of themselves as above their peers and reality smacked them down and said they were not.

i think that's a lot of projection by you. 

i dont like quinn either, but okudah was pretty much universally seen as the best corner prospect in the draft.  simmons was the best athlete but seen as a long term project, and tua is lefty qb coming off a serious injury and the lions had a good qb and had a mandate to make the playoffs or else this season.  tua wasnt helping you there.

and its been half a season.  i know everyone wants to crown tua as the next great qb - and maybe he will be - but he hasnt done much this season and got benched the other day (and also hurt again).  if okudah doesnt get any better, then it will be obvious quinn made a mistake, but lets give him a little time first.

that said, there is obviously plenty to rip him for.  teez, davis, and tavai being the most glaring examples.

every gm will miss in the draft.  and we all remember the guys drafted after who became good, but never the guys who flopped.  im more critical of his poor free agent signings.  like spending big money on jesse james or rick wagner or justin coleman.  even trey flowers.  the drafting and signing of specific players (big and slow) to fit a certain scheme.  it just wasnt good enough.  the players werent good enough.

i guess we'll find out more in the next five games.  see if it was really patricia all along.

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46 minutes ago, Buddha said:

i think that's a lot of projection by you. 

i dont like quinn either, but okudah was pretty much universally seen as the best corner prospect in the draft.  simmons was the best athlete but seen as a long term project, and tua is lefty qb coming off a serious injury and the lions had a good qb and had a mandate to make the playoffs or else this season.  tua wasnt helping you there.

and its been half a season.  i know everyone wants to crown tua as the next great qb - and maybe he will be - but he hasnt done much this season and got benched the other day (and also hurt again).  if okudah doesnt get any better, then it will be obvious quinn made a mistake, but lets give him a little time first.

Quinn's other issue with Okudah  (Patricia likely was in on it) was that it almost seemed like they wanted to live the hyperbole of what everyone thinks of the Patriots/Belichek.  That outside of Brady, if you got too 'good' and wanted money, they kicked you out the door and simply replaced you with next man up. That simply isn't true, but it's the legend, and it seems like that's how they want to be.  Good teams will cut loose a player before a decline, and Slay was someone that is close to the 'cut loose' line, but our defense sucked last year.  Then they go get a cheaper/older version of Slay in Trufant and draft Okudah.  Very few CB's walk into the league and play good right away.  Our backfield was doomed before the season started.  

I don't know how much Patricia dictated the offense, but hopefully Bevell opens it up.  This team needs to put up 40 points a game to have a shot at winning.

 

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2 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Part of that is the smartest guy in the room problem that the last two Lions GM's have faced. Taking Okudah over Tua, taking Hockenson over Burns or Bush (or Oliver or Sweat if you want to look at players having minimal success in year 2), taking Teez Tabor with the slowest 40 time among corners in the draft then asking him to play man, taking Brandon Pettigrew over OL (Alex Mack) or a WR in Randall Cobb, taking Eric Ebron over OBJ and Aaron Donald, etc. A GM should always be certain in the moves they are making and should trust the people and processes they have in place. But when they get cute, when they think they are smarter than the people around them trying to help like scouts, player personnel, coaches and not relying on their individual expertise and advice that's a big problem. Quinn for example was (according to Mike Valenti's reports) the only person who wanted to draft Okudah. Scouts and player personnel people were split between Tua and Simmons. When they think they know more than everyone else in the league about a particular guy (think Bob Quinn saying he's watched more tape on Teez Tabor than any prospect ever) or about doing a particular task (evaluating and drafting players) that's also a problem. You aren't half as clever or as smart as you think you are. Quinn and Mayhew both thought of themselves as above their peers and reality smacked them down and said they were not.

Of course Quinn watched a lot of tape on Teez Tabor.  Super slow guys use up more recording time than fast ones covering the same distance.

Still, I'm going to miss Quinn and his pet hippo.  They were even easier to make fun of than Matt Millen. 

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46 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

dca9ecd74ecefe6015a4a2c8f51a9b0f.jpg

My girlfriend calls Patricia Brutus............

That’s pretty good.  I call him piece of **** MF

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13 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Part of that is the smartest guy in the room problem that the last two Lions GM's have faced. Taking Okudah over Tua, taking Hockenson over Burns or Bush (or Oliver or Sweat if you want to look at players having minimal success in year 2), taking Teez Tabor with the slowest 40 time among corners in the draft then asking him to play man, taking Brandon Pettigrew over OL (Alex Mack) or a WR in Randall Cobb, taking Eric Ebron over OBJ and Aaron Donald, etc. A GM should always be certain in the moves they are making and should trust the people and processes they have in place. But when they get cute, when they think they are smarter than the people around them trying to help like scouts, player personnel, coaches and not relying on their individual expertise and advice that's a big problem. Quinn for example was (according to Mike Valenti's reports) the only person who wanted to draft Okudah. Scouts and player personnel people were split between Tua and Simmons. When they think they know more than everyone else in the league about a particular guy (think Bob Quinn saying he's watched more tape on Teez Tabor than any prospect ever) or about doing a particular task (evaluating and drafting players) that's also a problem. You aren't half as clever or as smart as you think you are. Quinn and Mayhew both thought of themselves as above their peers and reality smacked them down and said they were not.

Tua sucks. If you had said Herbert, then ok. But Tua doesn't do it for me.

And Hockenson was as good as anyone in that draft. It wasn't a good draft, and he fit a huge need.

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9 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

dca9ecd74ecefe6015a4a2c8f51a9b0f.jpg

My girlfriend calls Patricia Brutus............

You have a girlfriend?

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2 hours ago, cruzer1 said:

Tua sucks. If you had said Herbert, then ok. But Tua doesn't do it for me.

And Hockenson was as good as anyone in that draft. It wasn't a good draft, and he fit a huge need.

Way too early to make any decisions on the past two draft classes.   This past covid offseason was unprecedented and set the development curve back for many of these players.   Crucial off season time in the facilities with coaches and trainers were lost.  

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29 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

Way too early to make any decisions on the past two draft classes.   This past covid offseason was unprecedented and set the development curve back for many of these players.   Crucial off season time in the facilities with coaches and trainers were lost.  

two weeks ago you said Tua (and everyone in this past draft class) was a really good qb.  but now you say its too early to make any decisions?  lol.  

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14 minutes ago, Buddha said:

two weeks ago you said Tua (and everyone in this past draft class) was a really good qb.  but now you say its too early to make any decisions?  lol.  

I don't know what Tua nor Herbert will end up being as NFL QBs. Tua has the talent level to be a top 10 NFL QB I think. Herbert could get there as well, but who knows. I also don't know what Okudah will end up being, even if he's off to a start that showcases him as one of the worst starting corners in the NFL. What I do know though, is that the Lions needed a QB then and still need one now. Tua and Herbert were staring them right in the face and they passed. QB also has a significantly higher positional value than QB, which only matters if you needed one, and I would argue we did.

They could have taken Tua and still kept Stafford around for another year even if they were in a win now edict from management. It isn't like Okudah is contributing to team success right now anyways. Hindsight is 2020, but I think at this point what should have happened is Sheila should have stepped in and either fired them last off season or demanded they take one of Tua or Herbert.

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43 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

Way too early to make any decisions on the past two draft classes.   This past covid offseason was unprecedented and set the development curve back for many of these players.   Crucial off season time in the facilities with coaches and trainers were lost.  

3 years.   You can't truly rate draft picks or draft classes for 3 years.  

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