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Mr.TaterSalad

Matt Patricia/Bob Quinn fired - Holmes/Cambell Hired as GM/Coach

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1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

NBC Sports has an overview of the college coaches who made the jump, but no comparison to the coordinators.

https://www.nbcsports.com/making-jump-how-did-college-coaches-fare-after-going-nfl#slide-17

quite the mixed bag. I had forgotten about Robinson and Switzer. Funny that Robinson couldn't succeed when he went back to USC. Had the recruiting landscape changed that much just while he was away from the NCAA and he wasn't prepared to play whatever the new game was? Or was he just out of steam after too many years?

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23 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

quite the mixed bag. I had forgotten about Robinson and Switzer. Funny that Robinson couldn't succeed when he went back to USC. Had the recruiting landscape changed that much just while he was away from the NCAA and he wasn't prepared to play whatever the new game was? Or was he just out of steam after too many years?

He had a ton of talent. In just the first 3 years he had Johnnie Morton, Tony Bosseli, Willie McGinest, Jason Sehorn, Sammy Knight, Darrell Russell, and Keyshawn Johnson.   Mike Riley was his OC.    The problem was they didn’t have the right guy at QB.  Rob Johnson was an NFL talent and could make all the throws but just wasn’t able to be a star in the big games.   They couldn’t get over the hump with him.  The year after Rob Johnson went to the pros in they did win the Rose Bowl when Keyshawn Johnson single handly destroyed Norhtwestern.   The next year the wheels fell off when he couldn’t get a QB and those were the days when 6-6 got you fired at USC.     Little did anyone know the Paul Hackett era was next. 

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2 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I have zero idea why they chose to interview one guy and not another. But for the life of me, I cannot figure out why neither Brian Daboll or Greg Roman have gotten interviews. They are both successful OC's with multiple years of experience at the job, across multiple teams. They each run two offenses that rank in the top 10 in scoring, both have a proven ability to develop and turn around QBs Allen for Daboll and Jackson and Kapernick for Roman. Why the Lions interviewed neither is perplexing to me. In the case of Daboll, he's gotten interviews with multiple organizations this year but not ours.

Both are still in the playoffs which creates problems. Only so many days in a week and if you are interviewing other guys, you don't have time for them. The two of them have been linked to very few jobs this year. 

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I'm not as high on Daboll as others. He wasn't setting the world on fire as offensive coordinator for Cleveland or Miami. How much credit does he get for Josh Allen? Is it Daboll's tutelage or just the natural progression of a talented QB? Why is it not QB coach Ken Dorsey? Dorsey was there during Cam Newton's best years and it wasn't until Dorsey came along that Allen turned it around as Daboll was there during all of Allen's wild rookie season. Just don't see how a mediocre offensive coordinator turns offensive genius over night. 

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45 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I'm not as high on Daboll as others. He wasn't setting the world on fire as offensive coordinator for Cleveland or Miami. How much credit does he get for Josh Allen? Is it Daboll's tutelage or just the natural progression of a talented QB? Why is it not QB coach Ken Dorsey? Dorsey was there during Cam Newton's best years and it wasn't until Dorsey came along that Allen turned it around as Daboll was there during all of Allen's wild rookie season. Just don't see how a mediocre offensive coordinator turns offensive genius over night. 

I think in fairness to Daboll he had awful QBs and really bad rosters to work with at both Cleveland and Miami. He had Brady Quinn and Derek Anderson has his QB's in Cleveland and had Matt Moore and JP Losman (who?) in Miami. Looking over the rosters he had to work with Brandon Marshall and Reggie Bush were the best players he had to work with. Whose going to succeed with that talent?

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3 hours ago, RedRamage said:

So if I'm understanding correctly, you believe that the Hierarchy in the Lions goes something like this:

Owner -> President -> Spielman -> GM -> Coach

As opposed to the more traditional:

Owner -> President -> GM -> Coach

Obviously both examples were are HEAVILY over simplified and there's far more nuance and team work rather than straight lines.  But boiled down is that kinda sorta your idea of how things are set?

For what it's worth, I listened to an interview with a beat writer for the Rams who said something along these same lines... that most people assume the GM picks the coach, but that may not be happening here and now, and that may be because the GM is a rookie GM. (Of course, given that Spielman is a rookie [insert job title and hierarchy slot here] I don't necessarily feel that he's automatically any better at picking a coach.)

Yes. I mean, look at who they hired first: Spielman. 

Then look at who they interviewed: Everybody. Including six HC candidates before they hired Holmes as GM. 

Clearly they don’t seem all that concerned about giving the GM a chance to get “his guy.”

And in fact, maybe they lost out on Arthur Smith because they wanted to give Holmes a chance to weigh in, rather than beating the Falcons to the punch and telling Holmes, “Let us introduce you to the new Head Coach Arthur Smith.” 

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19 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I think in fairness to Daboll he had awful QBs and really bad rosters to work with at both Cleveland and Miami. He had Brady Quinn and Derek Anderson has his QB's in Cleveland and had Matt Moore and JP Losman (who?) in Miami. Looking over the rosters he had to work with Brandon Marshall and Reggie Bush were the best players he had to work with. Whose going to succeed with that talent?

I agree but we need to temper expectations because he had one good year with Josh Allen. He also had two bad years of Allen and Ken Dorsey came along as QB coach after Daboll.

11 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

 

I'll go ahead and give the Lions and Spielman the benefit of the doubt <insert OMG it's the Lions they don't get the benefit of the doubt their awful etc etc> and hope he is in the mold of Mike Vrabel as the former player turned coach with great leadership skills. Fans gets enamored with offensive and defensive rankings but that really doesn't measure leadership. Get a strong leader and add good coordinators. Vrabel in his one season as defensive coordinator had the worst defense in the NFL. He is a good leader and surrounded himself with good coordinators. Two of his coordinators are head coaches now. 

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I'm not going to crap on a guy for one quote, but if this is his philosophy we are ******. This isn't 1993 with Emmet Smith and Leon Lett anymore. Offensive creativity, spreading out the field and using the pass to setup the run, strong play from your QB, those are things that win in today's NFL. What the Chiefs, Packers, Bills, etc. are doing. We saw what "ball control football" looked like under Matt Patricia on offense and it wasn't the least bit successful. If you have an elite power back like Derrick Henry or prime Adrian Petersen than maybe you can make it work, short of that, a conservative, run-focused, ball control, slower offense in today's NFL will fail. Speed and space, with creative playcalling wins, not three yards and a cloud of dust. Yes, you want to control time of possession and manage the clock, but you can do that through a variety of screens, short yardage slants, play action, etc. It doesn't need to be in a Power-I formation with a two back set or an ISO/Dive play called up the middle.

 

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I kind of like the idea of Campbell. I was preparing to be completely bored with Lewis or Bowles.

I like the idea of a young high energy, rah rah type of coach. I have no idea if he's any good at game planning or assembling a good staff but I do think he'll be the type of coach that players play really hard for, similar to Saleh in a sense. I just wish they paired the inexperienced coach with an experienced GM. This carries a ton of risk and I'm a bit surprised that they're going in this direction after Quinntricia from an experience standpoint.

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7 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I'm not going to crap on a guy for one quote, but if this is his philosophy we are ******. This isn't 1993 with Emmet Smith and Leon Lett anymore. Offensive creativity, spreading out the field and using the pass to setup the run, strong play from your QB, those are things that win in today's NFL. What the Chiefs, Packers, Bills, etc. are doing. We saw what "ball control football" looked like under Matt Patricia on offense and it wasn't the least bit successful. If you have an elite power back like Derrick Henry or prime Adrian Petersen than maybe you can make it work, short of that, a conservative, run-focused, ball control, slower offense in today's NFL will fail. Speed and space, with creative playcalling wins, not three yards and a cloud of dust. Yes, you want to control time of possession and manage the clock, but you can do that through a variety of screens, short yardage slants, play action, etc. It doesn't need to be in a Power-I formation with a two back set or an ISO/Dive play called up the middle.

Yup - and in particular, if the league sticks with the new interpretation of OL holding the league is going to get even more pass happy than it is now - at least for as long as they don't change some other rule to start compensating.

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37 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Fans gets enamored with offensive and defensive rankings but that really doesn't measure leadership. Get a strong leader and add good coordinators. Vrabel in his one season as defensive coordinator had the worst defense in the NFL. He is a good leader and surrounded himself with good coordinators. Two of his coordinators are head coaches now. 

^^^^ This ^^^^

Being a good DC or OC does not (obviously) lead to being a good HC... which of course is news to no one.  Being a HC is just different in that there is more to manage.  How much experience in the job of being an HC Campbell has gotten by being an assistant HC I don't know... but he at least has that tag on him and so has hopefully does some of that type of stuff.

(Just to be clear: Being an assistant HC also does not lead to being a good HC... I'm not trying to say that I only wanna look at assistant HCs and ignore DC/OC people.  Rather I'm saying that I'm not going to limit myself to only looking at DC/OCs or former HCs.)

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15 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I'm not going to crap on a guy for one quote, but if this is his philosophy we are ******. This isn't 1993 with Emmet Smith and Leon Lett anymore. Offensive creativity, spreading out the field and using the pass to setup the run, strong play from your QB, those are things that win in today's NFL. What the Chiefs, Packers, Bills, etc. are doing. We saw what "ball control football" looked like under Matt Patricia on offense and it wasn't the least bit successful. If you have an elite power back like Derrick Henry or prime Adrian Petersen than maybe you can make it work, short of that, a conservative, run-focused, ball control, slower offense in today's NFL will fail. Speed and space, with creative playcalling wins, not three yards and a cloud of dust. Yes, you want to control time of possession and manage the clock, but you can do that through a variety of screens, short yardage slants, play action, etc. It doesn't need to be in a Power-I formation with a two back set or an ISO/Dive play called up the middle.

 

I don't get the ground and pound vibe from those quotes. The Saints run the ball a lot and are one of the top offenses in the league. A lot of that could be because Drew Brees missed some time but they have always been an offense to run the ball a lot. 

You also have Chris Spielman, a 90's era player, having a big role in the coaching hire decision. 

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17 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I'm not going to crap on a guy for one quote, but if this is his philosophy we are ******. This isn't 1993 with Emmet Smith and Leon Lett anymore. Offensive creativity, spreading out the field and using the pass to setup the run, strong play from your QB, those are things that win in today's NFL. What the Chiefs, Packers, Bills, etc. are doing. We saw what "ball control football" looked like under Matt Patricia on offense and it wasn't the least bit successful. If you have an elite power back like Derrick Henry or prime Adrian Petersen than maybe you can make it work, short of that, a conservative, run-focused, ball control, slower offense in today's NFL will fail. Speed and space, with creative playcalling wins, not three yards and a cloud of dust. Yes, you want to control time of possession and manage the clock, but you can do that through a variety of screens, short yardage slants, play action, etc. It doesn't need to be in a Power-I formation with a two back set or an ISO/Dive play called up the middle.

 

To be fair though, he is currently the TE coach/AHC on a team that utilizes Taysom Hill as a do-it-all QB/TE/Flex and it's working out pretty well. Pretty much the epitome of what you're describing. I don't think he would go and completely abandon it all to try to create a 3yds and a cloud of dust football team.

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27 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

To be fair though, he is currently the TE coach/AHC on a team that utilizes Taysom Hill as a do-it-all QB/TE/Flex and it's working out pretty well. Pretty much the epitome of what you're describing. I don't think he would go and completely abandon it all to try to create a 3yds and a cloud of dust football team.

Does that mean the Lions might be looking to draft another TE in the first round... one who can also throw the ball??

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1 minute ago, RedRamage said:

Does that me the Lions might be looking to draft another TE in the first round... one who can also throw the ball??

22 TEs and let's just see what the **** happens. 

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11 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

To be fair though, he is currently the TE coach/AHC on a team that utilizes Taysom Hill as a do-it-all QB/TE/Flex and it's working out pretty well. Pretty much the epitome of what you're describing. I don't think he would go and completely abandon it all to try to create a 3yds and a cloud of dust football team.

If that quote is compared to what the Saints are actually doing then yes, of course, I'll take the results on the field that we actually see week in and week out versus one quote. I would just be extremely worried if he came in here and tried to adopt a ball control, run heavy offensive mindset in the modern era of football. I do get the sense from that quote that he seems like a run the clock down through a physical rushing attacking type of guy. Again though, it's one quote, so I'll reserve passing too much judgement here.

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1 minute ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

If that quote is compared to what the Saints are actually doing then yes, of course, I'll take the results on the field that we actually see week in and week out versus one quote. I would just be extremely worried if he came in here and tried to adopt a ball control, run heavy offensive mindset in the modern era of football. I do get the sense from that quote that he seems like a run the clock down through a physical rushing attacking type of guy. Again though, it's one quote, so I'll reserve passing too much judgement here.

Well, in 2015 he was the interim coach in Miami and the Dolphins had the fewest rushing attempts in the NFL. No team ran the ball fewer times in the NFL than when Dan Campbell was coach. The Dolphins actually ranked 9th in the NFL in yards per attempt so it's not like they were a bad rushing team either. Tannehill had 586 pass attempts and his career high is 590. I'll go on his track record than some quote. 

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4 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

With Brad Holmes being a rookie GM I'd like to see the Lions bring in an experienced GM like a Rick Smith or Thomas Dimitroff to work as a special assistant to the GM, Assistant GM, whatever. I think bringing in an experienced hand who has worked the free agent market and has done contract negations before would be a nice assist to help Holmes out.

you undercut holmes if you do that.

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3 minutes ago, Buddha said:

you undercut holmes if you do that.

Scott Pioli, a former GM, was brought into Atlanta to work with Dimitroff as his Assistant GM. I think it only undercuts Holmes if that person has decision making power, rather than being in a suggestive/advisory role. Holmes would still make the final decision on all transactions. Brian Xanders was brought in here to work with Mayhew at one point in time.

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I just realized the offensive coordinator under Campbell in Miami was Zac Taylor who is now the head coach of the Bengals. 

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6 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Scott Pioli, a former GM, was brought into Atlanta to work with Dimitroff as his Assistant GM. I think it only undercuts Holmes if that person has decision making power, rather than being in a suggestive/advisory role. Holmes would still make the final decision on all transactions.

Pioli and Dimtroff worked together in New England. I'm not sure how someone of Dimtroff's status would work with a rookie GM. I would look for someone with strong pro personnel experience like Riddick. 

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11 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Scott Pioli, a former GM, was brought into Atlanta to work with Dimitroff as his Assistant GM. I think it only undercuts Holmes if that person has decision making power, rather than being in a suggestive/advisory role. Holmes would still make the final decision on all transactions. Brian Xanders was brought in here to work with Mayhew at one point in time.

pioli and dimitroff are friends and dimitroff hired him to work with/for him.

if holmes wants to bring someone else in to help him, that should be his call.  if the lions want to bring someone they interviewed for HIS JOB to "help him" then that's undercutting him and would set up a two tiered top management system.

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