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Matt Patricia/Bob Quinn fired - Holmes/Cambell Hired as GM/Coach

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23 hours ago, Keepleyland2 said:

This is BS. When Vanerbilt doesn't beat Kentucky their coach gets fired. When Iowa doesn't beat WIsconsin the fan base gets pissed. Every fan base wants its team to beat their rivals. Don't play it doesn't exist in other places. 

And its Michigan. It should be competing with Ohio State and shouldn't be .500 against Michigan State. Get out of here with that junk. His failures are not just aganist teams that "sold their soul" it's against most good teams.

And it matters in the NFL. If a guy can't get his players prepared or beat a good team in college, what makes you think he can prepare and beat good teams in week 16 with the playoffs on the line? It speaks to motivation and preparation. 

But, the thing all you Harbuagh people ignore is that he is not a good gameday coach. Put on the tape, watch a game. He makes several baffling decision each game. That is why his teams always lose in the big moments. 

If we hired Harbuagh, I have no doubt that he'd get us to the playoffs once or twice. But, he wear out his welcome and be gone in five years. Basically, Jim Schwartz. Its what the lions have done too much of in 60 years. Play it safe and hope. Go big, hire the big name or hire the Ubran Meyer of the world. If it doesn't work, just cut bait. But, the Harbaughs is what we've done for 6 decades and it hasn't worked. 

The season and overall performance is bigger than those matchups though. If Michigan were consistently losing to Rutgers, Harbaugh at some point would likely be fired, but that's because if they're losing to Rutgers they're likely having a losing season. Kentucky won six of the last seven against Vanderbilt, and the Vanderbilt coach was just fired this year.

If you think Michigan should be competing year in and year out against Ohio State that's fine, but the fact that they aren't is an indictment of the institution, not of Harbaugh. Mark Schlissel, the Board of Trustees, Warde Manual and the University of Michigan on the whole cares more about image, reputation, and academics than they do about winning football games. Period. They are not willing to sacrifice those things, and their integrity, to win football games. And in today's NCAA, you have to do that if you want to make the College Football Playoff. No matter how good a football player you are at Vanderbilt or Stanford, you have to play by the rules. The same goes at Michigan, but does not at Alabama, Clemson, or Ohio State.

Going back to the first point then, overall performance is also judged differently between those two tiers. Do you think the Ohio State administration gives a single **** what their team GPA is, if they're all eligible and win a National Championship? And what is a scandal, if it can be survived with minimal sanctions? Those are all things at Michigan. And the fact Harbaugh has kept the team out of the 'bad' spotlight is a huge point in his favor for Michigan brass.

If you want to argue he's not a good gameday coach, then fine. That's an argument that can be made. But his record everywhere he's gone seems to speak to him making enough good decisions to win games, including in those week 16 matchups (and beyond) that matter.

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23 hours ago, Buddha said:

they have the best fit for the lions as marvin lewis.

no.

This is the one hire that I may lose my mind over if they did it.

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17 hours ago, Buddha said:

but he also seems to burn himself - and everyone else - out quickly.  he left san jose and stanford after quick turnarounds.  after he turned the niners into a super bowl team, it fell apart in one year and he alienated people and was gone.

this is the funny thing right now. It hasn't really happened. His 1st couple of seasons he was tweeting and picking arguments and altogether being pretty prickly. Now he's a freaking pussycat. He's hasn't said anything controversial recently in a post game or press availability that I can remember - players are leaving in droves but none of them are complaining about 'coach'. He's perfectly cool with the guys transferring for more playing time. I have no idea if it actually makes him a better or worse coach, but the current Jim Harbaugh has no apparent sharp edges at all.

Maybe that is what losing does to a guy, but thinking back to the Kirk Herbstreit comments, can you imagine Jim Harbaugh circa 2015 leaving it up to his AD to respond to that?

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27 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

The season and overall performance is bigger than those matchups though. If Michigan were consistently losing to Rutgers, Harbaugh at some point would likely be fired, but that's because if they're losing to Rutgers they're likely having a losing season. Kentucky won six of the last seven against Vanderbilt, and the Vanderbilt coach was just fired this year.

If you think Michigan should be competing year in and year out against Ohio State that's fine, but the fact that they aren't is an indictment of the institution, not of Harbaugh. Mark Schlissel, the Board of Trustees, Warde Manual and the University of Michigan on the whole cares more about image, reputation, and academics than they do about winning football games. Period. They are not willing to sacrifice those things, and their integrity, to win football games. And in today's NCAA, you have to do that if you want to make the College Football Playoff. No matter how good a football player you are at Vanderbilt or Stanford, you have to play by the rules. The same goes at Michigan, but does not at Alabama, Clemson, or Ohio State.

Going back to the first point then, overall performance is also judged differently between those two tiers. Do you think the Ohio State administration gives a single **** what their team GPA is, if they're all eligible and win a National Championship? And what is a scandal, if it can be survived with minimal sanctions? Those are all things at Michigan. And the fact Harbaugh has kept the team out of the 'bad' spotlight is a huge point in his favor for Michigan brass.

If you want to argue he's not a good gameday coach, then fine. That's an argument that can be made. But his record everywhere he's gone seems to speak to him making enough good decisions to win games, including in those week 16 matchups (and beyond) that matter.

Then the university needs to quit being dishonest and disingenuous with its fan base and admit what their actual goals are. When Harbaugh was brought in was or was not the expectation to beat Ohio State, win a Big Ten Championship at some point in the foreseeable future (we'll say, 5-6 years), and have a chance at the CFB playoff? Am I revising the history of what fans, alumni, and the university wanted? If that was the expectation and I am not revising history, why is Harbaugh still here when in five years that has not been done?

If Michigan as a university doesn't see themselves in the same league, competing with Ohio State, Clemson, Alabama, Auburn, LSU, etc. then someone from the university needs to publicly come out and state that they are revising the expectations from when Harbaugh was first hired. They need to be honest with their fan base and let us know that beating Ohio State, winning a Big Ten Championship, and competing for a spot in the CFB Playoff is no longer a realistic expectation. Don't sit here and pretend as a school that this is still the goal if your actions are going to dictate otherwise. It's disingenuous and dishonest for the university to try and market the Ohio State game as "The Big Game" and the "best rivalry in college football" when it is no longer a big game, nor a rivalry, just a lopsided affair.

Oh, the university wants to see itself as "above Ohio State" on one hand but then has no problem turning around to its fan base and alumni and spinning a completely different narrative. Marketing this game with their hands and arms open wide, raking in the fistfuls of cash when its a convenient money maker on Saturday but turning around on Sunday and pretending they are above reproach and better than Ohio State. It is the height of intellectual dishonesty from an institution that pretends to be intellectually superior to those it says it is both competing with and better than simultaneously.

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On 12/31/2020 at 12:47 PM, Buddha said:

they have the best fit for the lions as marvin lewis.

no.

To his credit, he has never lost a Super Bowl.

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34 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

If Michigan as a university doesn't see themselves in the same league, competing with Ohio State, Clemson, Alabama, Auburn, LSU, etc. then someone from the university needs to publicly come out and state that they are revising the expectations from when Harbaugh was first hired.

thing is Tater, the U has no obligation to the public in that regard at all. They put a product on the field, the public either buys tickets/merchandise and provides TV ratings, or they don't. The relation to the larger public is purely transactional. Now within the University community there are some trust imperatives, and one of them is that the University will take reasonable pains that it's scholars won't see their prestige put in the toilet by a rogue athletic dept, but I think even that gets oversold. I don't think many of the serious scientists and academics care all that much about the football team either way. It's something that can be a little fun but otherwise is not very high on their list of concerns. For the larger University community the value of the revenue sports is that it pays for the rest of the sports and recreation programs for everyone else and people would that like to  continue if possible. In short, NO one want to see the football program lose money.

This is purely personally opinion, but I think top AAU schools like Michigan are nearing a cross roads with revenue athletics - especially given the uncertainty around what the legal and economic framework is going to be in a few years. In the previous couple of decades a lot of schools made big $$ investments in revenue sports  only to find out now that they may end up losing the return on those investments to players and agents in the future. I would guess that right now Mark Schlissel is perfectly fine leaving the athletic dept more or less on autopilot as much as he can until he knows what the U will be dealing with after the dust settles from the court cases and state and federal legislation activity going  on now.

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21 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Then the university needs to quit being dishonest and disingenuous with its fan base and admit what their actual goals are. When Harbaugh was brought in was or was not the expectation to beat Ohio State, win a Big Ten Championship at some point in the foreseeable future (we'll say, 5-6 years), and have a chance at the CFB playoff? Am I revising the history of what fans, alumni, and the university wanted? If that was the expectation and I am not revising history, why is Harbaugh still here when in five years that has not been done?

If Michigan as a university doesn't see themselves in the same league, competing with Ohio State, Clemson, Alabama, Auburn, LSU, etc. then someone from the university needs to publicly come out and state that they are revising the expectations from when Harbaugh was first hired. They need to be honest with their fan base and let us know that beating Ohio State, winning a Big Ten Championship, and competing for a spot in the CFB Playoff is no longer a realistic expectation. Don't sit here and pretend as a school that this is still the goal if your actions are going to dictate otherwise. It's disingenuous and dishonest for the university to try and market the Ohio State game as "The Big Game" and the "best rivalry in college football" when it is no longer a big game, nor a rivalry, just a lopsided affair.

Oh, the university wants to see itself as "above Ohio State" on one hand but then has no problem turning around to its fan base and alumni and spinning a completely different narrative. Marketing this game with their hands and arms open wide, raking in the fistfuls of cash when its a convenient money maker on Saturday but turning around on Sunday and pretending they are above reproach and better than Ohio State. It is the height of intellectual dishonesty from an institution that pretends to be intellectually superior to those it says it is both competing with and better than simultaneously.

I don't think they are being disingenuous with fans. They want to win. It's just they aren't willing to sacrifice other morals and other goals (increasing the endowment, increasing their research footprint and prowess, solidifying themselves as a top 5 public university, etc.) at the expense of wins. Harbaugh's job is to win as many games as he can, while upholding those other values the university holds. I don't believe he's failed at that.

That said, I agree with you on the sentiment that five to six years ago, beating Ohio State and competing for championships is what the athletic department had in mind. And I think it has put them at a crossroads. Are they willing to go into the world of the Ohio States or stay back and continue to promote their institution above all else? Thus far I think it's clear what they've chosen.

Finally though, no one from the school would ever come out and say this for a number of reasons. It would out the worst kept secrets that the Clemsons/Alabamas/Ohio States don't play fair in recruiting, it would alienate fans who still want to win NCs, and it would upset the admin of schools like Ohio State and Iowa, who Michigan has a significant research and academic relationship with. There is no gain for saying "we want to beat them but it's ok if we don't because they play by different rules".

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4 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

this is Tater, the U has no obligation to the public in that regard at all. They put a product on the field, the public either buys tickets/merchandise and provides TV ratings, or they don't. The relation to the larger public is purely transactional. Now within the University community there are some trust imperatives, and one of them is that the University will take reasonable pains that it's scholars won't see their prestige put in the toilet by a rogue athletic dept, but I think even that gets oversold. I don't think many of the serious scientists and academics care all that much about the football team either way. It's something that can be a little fun but otherwise is not very high on their list of concerns. 

This. Whether it's Stanford-Cal, Michigan-Ohio State, or Harvard-Yale, the extent of concern in the administration and research offices of these institutions' football teams generally does not rise above a friendly jab to their research partner at the opposing school in a Monday morning email after the game, unless a scandal or otherwise press attention requires them to devote attention to it. And the university cares more about those people than it does the people in the athletic department.

I think a scandal's impact on the university's reputation can be oversold, but it can also have a major impact on the institution. Ohio State's tattoo-gate for instance was a massive joke outside the NCAA world. I'm sure that didn't change one iota of perception in the academic community. Penn State's Sandusky scandal though was a pretty serious hit, the live videos of students demonstrating against Paterno's firing was absurd and the lawsuits surrounding them caused some serious financial fallback. The same goes for Michigan State's Larry Nassar scandal (though not football related). The amount of revenue they lost in lawsuits, the subsequent increase in both acceptance rate and tuition to make up for it (they are currently higher than both Central and Eastern in both AR and tuition), and the sudden spotlight of how moronic the Board of Trustees was/is is a serious hit that MSU as a school is still recovering from.

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I dont really give a damn who the Lions hire as HC...it only matters if they hire a high quality GM, which is IMO a longshot.

That having been said, the idea that a Lions fan would not be happy with a team that wins playoff games and even loses a Superbowl is beyond insane.

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7 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Then the university needs to quit being dishonest and disingenuous with its fan base and admit what their actual goals are. When Harbaugh was brought in was or was not the expectation to beat Ohio State, win a Big Ten Championship at some point in the foreseeable future (we'll say, 5-6 years), and have a chance at the CFB playoff? Am I revising the history of what fans, alumni, and the university wanted? If that was the expectation and I am not revising history, why is Harbaugh still here when in five years that has not been done?

If Michigan as a university doesn't see themselves in the same league, competing with Ohio State, Clemson, Alabama, Auburn, LSU, etc. then someone from the university needs to publicly come out and state that they are revising the expectations from when Harbaugh was first hired. They need to be honest with their fan base and let us know that beating Ohio State, winning a Big Ten Championship, and competing for a spot in the CFB Playoff is no longer a realistic expectation. Don't sit here and pretend as a school that this is still the goal if your actions are going to dictate otherwise. It's disingenuous and dishonest for the university to try and market the Ohio State game as "The Big Game" and the "best rivalry in college football" when it is no longer a big game, nor a rivalry, just a lopsided affair.

Oh, the university wants to see itself as "above Ohio State" on one hand but then has no problem turning around to its fan base and alumni and spinning a completely different narrative. Marketing this game with their hands and arms open wide, raking in the fistfuls of cash when its a convenient money maker on Saturday but turning around on Sunday and pretending they are above reproach and better than Ohio State. It is the height of intellectual dishonesty from an institution that pretends to be intellectually superior to those it says it is both competing with and better than simultaneously.

You make a lot more sense when you simply say that you don't care about all the other stuff like rules and academics and such, and you just want them to win championships, regardless of the consequences in other areas.  I dont at all agree with that perspective, but it makes more sense than your complaint about their marketing and PR strategy not being brutally honest and self-revelatory (like any marketing and PR strategy ever is or should be so).

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53 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

You make a lot more sense when you simply say that you don't care about all the other stuff like rules and academics and such, and you just want them to win championships, regardless of the consequences in other areas.  I dont at all agree with that perspective, but it makes more sense than your complaint about their marketing and PR strategy not being brutally honest and self-revelatory (like any marketing and PR strategy ever is or should be so).

But the University sold fans, students, alumni, and boosters that bringing Harbaugh in meant regaining control over MSU, beating Ohio State, competing for Big Ten Championships and shots at National Championships. That was their spin, not anyone else's. If they actually believed that they'd fire Harbaugh and do whatever it took to bring in a top-tier candidate to replace him. If they don't believe it than just come out and admit where the current state of the program is at and that you are satisfied with its direction.

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Just now, Mr.TaterSalad said:

But the University sold fans, students, alumni, and boosters that bringing Harbaugh in meant regaining control over MSU, beating Ohio State, competing for Big Ten Championships and shots at National Championships. That was their spin, not anyone else's. If they actually believed that they'd fire Harbaugh and do whatever it took to bring in a top-tier candidate to replace him. If they don't believe it than just come out and admit where the current state of the program is at and that you are satisfied with its direction.

lol. 

what university comes out and says "yeah, we have no shot, please buy tickets!"  not even rutgers does that.

give me a break.

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5 minutes ago, Buddha said:

lol. 

what university comes out and says "yeah, we have no shot, please buy tickets!"  not even rutgers does that.

give me a break.

They continue to market the Ohio State game as a marquee matchup to pump up ticket and merchandise sales. This rivalry game has become about as marquee as Oklahoma versus Kansas. Rutgers as a school has set clear expectations for their program and follows them accordingly. Their fans know exactly what the goals and expectations are and what they aren't. Michigan still has its fans throwing quarters into the wishing well, thinking that this is a big time program that is capable of competing with big boys in college football. Harbaugh is turning Michigan into the Tennessee of the north and the university is still out their spinning the narrative that they wish to field a competitive program. Their lack of action on Harbaugh says otherwise.

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2 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

They continue to market the Ohio State game as a marquee matchup to pump up ticket and merchandise sales. This rivalry game has become about as marquee as Oklahoma versus Kansas. Rutgers as a school has set clear expectations for their program and follows them accordingly. Their fans know exactly what the goals and expectations are and what they aren't. Michigan still has its fans throwing quarters into the wishing well, thinking that this is a big time program that is capable of competing with big boys in college football. Harbaugh is turning Michigan into the Tennessee of the north and the university is still out their spinning the narrative that they wish to field a competitive program. Their lack of action on Harbaugh says otherwise.

you sure you dont want a career in talk radio?

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11 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said:

Finally though, no one from the school would ever come out and say this for a number of reasons. It would out the worst kept secrets that the Clemsons/Alabamas/Ohio States don't play fair in recruiting, it would alienate fans who still want to win NCs, and it would upset the admin of schools like Ohio State and Iowa, who Michigan has a significant research and academic relationship with.

This is a point I would guess not many people outside academia appreciate. Most of the B10 schools are up to their ears with each other in joint academic projects, yes - even UM and OSU. There is indeed only institutional downside to trying to publicly lecture another major institution on how to do its sports business. The rules are basically that ADs and coaches are free to bitc_h and snipe and even report each other to the NCAA but you aren't going to see any B10 school put the weight of its prestige into having its high level administration get involved in trying to clean up someone else's athletic stables. The most you may ever see in public might be OSU being on the losing end of a vote of the B1Gs president's committee.

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16 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

This is a point I would guess not many people outside academia appreciate. Most of the B10 schools are up to their ears with each other in joint academic projects, yes - even UM and OSU. There is indeed only institutional downside to trying to publicly lecture another major institution on how to do its sports business. The rules are basically that ADs and coaches are free to bitc_h and snipe and even report each other to the NCAA but you aren't going to see any B10 school put the weight of its prestige into having its high level administration get involved in trying to clean up someone else's athletic stables. The most you may ever see in public might be OSU being on the losing end of a vote of the B1Gs president's committee.

fans think like fans.

the only folks who think that michigan "has to do something to show the fans they care" or else all is lost are super sports fans who call talk radio shows.

did you see notre dame get blown out again?  theyre 0-7 in the bcs/championship games and are always losing big double digits.  they recruit just like michigan, they lose to michigan every other time they play, and if they played in the big ten they'd have a similar record (unless they played in the west and then they'd be in a couple big ten championships losing to ohio state).

when college football ditches the bowl games and goes to a 16 team playoff, teams like michigan and notre dame will benefit and have a chance to catch ohio state and alabama.  until then, they have no shot because the best kids are going to those schools because they are in the playoff every year.

(and money, those schools pay better.  much better)

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19 minutes ago, Buddha said:

when college football ditches the bowl games and goes to a 16 team playoff, teams like michigan and notre dame will benefit and have a chance to catch ohio state and alabama.  until then, they have no shot because the best kids are going to those schools because they are in the playoff every year.

yeah - another result of the law of unintended consequences? The bowl games were good for college football in general because it meant conferences like the B10 and P10 could maintain good records and play big bowl games (against each other) while ducking the best southern teams and the facade would be preserved that college football was a huge competitive landscape.

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3 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

They continue to market the Ohio State game as a marquee matchup to pump up ticket and merchandise sales. This rivalry game has become about as marquee as Oklahoma versus Kansas. Rutgers as a school has set clear expectations for their program and follows them accordingly. Their fans know exactly what the goals and expectations are and what they aren't. Michigan still has its fans throwing quarters into the wishing well, thinking that this is a big time program that is capable of competing with big boys in college football. Harbaugh is turning Michigan into the Tennessee of the north and the university is still out their spinning the narrative that they wish to field a competitive program. Their lack of action on Harbaugh says otherwise.

Since when has Michigan not been the Tennessee of the north?

Actually, I'd call them the Texas of the north. A program (fanbase) that seems to think they are entitled to be treated as an elite program but, in reality, has been a second rate program for the last 30 years outside of an occasional National Championship run. Actually, I'd argue that Texas's 5 year run in the mid to late 2000's was far better than any Michigan 5 year run in modern times.

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15 hours ago, NYLion said:

Since when has Michigan not been the Tennessee of the north?

Actually, I'd call them the Texas of the north. A program (fanbase) that seems to think they are entitled to be treated as an elite program but, in reality, has been a second rate program for the last 30 years outside of an occasional National Championship run. Actually, I'd argue that Texas's 5 year run in the mid to late 2000's was far better than any Michigan 5 year run in modern times.

Michigan has had one undefeated/untied season since 1948.  (In the Bo era, Michigan had one season without a loss, but it was marred by a tie.  And Gary Moeller had a season without a loss, but only nine wins, because Michigan had three -- yes, three! -- ties.)

Except for 1997, Michigan's best accomplishments since the late Forties have been playing spoiler in the pre-playoff days, beating Ohio State when it came into the game undefeated and Michigan was able to destroy its National Championship hopes. 

Since 1997, Michigan has had at least two losses every year, and in 20 of those 23 seasons it has had more than two.

 

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Michigan was rarely the best team, but they were consistently one of the best teams.  Competitive with the best for sure.  Let's not sell them short.  

You guys are pretty jaded.

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1 hour ago, Buddha said:

Michigan was rarely the best team, but they were consistently one of the best teams.  Competitive with the best for sure.  Let's not sell them short.  

You guys are pretty jaded.

Bo's teams were certainly overrated. About the only teams Bo fielded with anything but a pedestrian offense were Harbaugh's (and If Ricky Leach hadn't hurt his arm there would probably have been another) I think MI in general fielded higher quality teams under Moeller and Carr. They may not have won any more than Bo but I think they were better offenses and more capable of going against other top teams. I would say look at the M QBs that had successful NFL careers  - Harbaugh and Griese and Brady - as the indicator of the high points of the program since Yost.

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17 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Bo's teams were certainly overrated. About the only teams Bo fielded with anything but a pedestrian offense were Harbaugh's (and If Ricky Leach hadn't hurt his arm there would probably have been another) I think MI in general fielded higher quality teams under Moeller and Carr. They may not have won any more than Bo but I think they were better offenses and more capable of going against other top teams. I would say look at the M QBs that had successful NFL careers  - Harbaugh and Griese and Brady - as the indicator of the high points of the program since Yost.

That's not really true about the offense.  Michigan teams were pretty good offensively, they're problem was always going into a conservative shell late in the games.  Cost them a couple Rose Bowls and a number of other close games against good teams.

You really like to take your shots at Bo.

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2 minutes ago, Buddha said:

they're problem was always going into a conservative shell late in the games. 

I'd call that a distinction without a difference. :wink:

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5 minutes ago, Buddha said:

You really like to take your shots at Bo.

yeah - pretty much - I thought he was a gas bag who happened to be able to recruit the heII out of Ohio. Then his stint with the Tigers just confirmed it. And I'll give him being a great O-Line coach.

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