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The Presidency of Joseph R. Biden

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39 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I find it curious that that millenials (at least as defined as being the boomer's children) are now past college age, but I see my college continuing to increase enrollment. Where are all these kids coming from? Are there colleges at the other end of the pipeline starting to emptying out or closing down? One thing is for sure, the investor class has no qualms about assuming enrollment in Ann Arbor won't be falling any time soon. A number I would guess must be over $100 million has been poured into off campus student housing construction in the last few years. Seems to fly in the face of the demographic trends.

The simple answer at my school is immigration - international students on student visas.

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2 hours ago, John_Brian_K said:

You will not find a person who will bang the drum for education more than me.  Over the course of the last 5-6 years this has REALLY hit home for me and become almost a magic wand of sorts for so many issues the country faces (shoot, you could say the world).  The tricky thing IMO is you HAVE to balance "free education" with "best education"....to me this is the crux...you cannot simply have free (or extremely cheaper) education and still maintain or rise to best education.  There is a balance...and one I am not going to claim to know.  Also one I am sure is extremely difficult to tight rope.

Well, you *can* have that, but you have to be willing to pay for that out of general taxation.

I paid precisely £0 for my university education - all four years of it. From that investment, the British state has gotten 30 years of high school teaching as a result - something I couldn't have done without the degree they allowed me to get.

It's a question of whether you want the value added from university-level educated people in your employment system or not. Or how far you minimise the debt for those who produce the most "value" in the long term

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1 minute ago, Blue Square Thing said:

Well, you *can* have that, but you have to be willing to pay for that out of general taxation.

I paid precisely £0 for my university education - all four years of it. From that investment, the British state has gotten 30 years of high school teaching as a result - something I couldn't have done without the degree they allowed me to get.

It's a question of whether you want the value added from university-level educated people in your employment system or not. Or how far you minimise the debt for those who produce the most "value" in the long term

spot on

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2 hours ago, ROMAD1 said:

I really like the last one.  Relationship ethics and respect. 

Personal financial education could follow the same format as the Progressive Ads where they show people how not to act like their parents.  "Should you buy a plane ticket without insurance or non-refundable when you don't know if the other people in your trip can actually make the trip?"  "The answer is no."

But they're too young to get it then.

It's utterly impractical, but force them to live on their own for two-three years and then give them this sort of education and the light bulbs will suddenly go on.

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1 hour ago, Buddha said:

just as an anecdotal piece to that, we've hired lawyers fresh out of school as claims people.  because there arent enough legal jobs to go around and the supply of lawyers is so high.

I increasingly think that there's an argument to be made that runs "**** it, study/do what you love".

So you may not get rich, but I'm getting tired of seeing 16 to 18 year olds making choices based on some ideal employment outcome that will likely become outdated by the time they get to that stage of their life anyway.*

*this may be influenced by age, cynicism and possibly too much wine as well.

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6 minutes ago, Blue Square Thing said:

But they're too young to get it then.

It's utterly impractical, but force them to live on their own for two-three years and then give them this sort of education and the light bulbs will suddenly go on.

Yes, there has never been a child who turned off the lights in rooms that they were no longer in, or who turned off the television when they weren't watching it, until they got their first apartment and their first electrical bill.  Real life teaches the lesson that nagging parents, or an educational system, never could.

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3 minutes ago, Blue Square Thing said:

I increasingly think that there's an argument to be made that runs "**** it, study/do what you love".

So you may not get rich, but I'm getting tired to seeing 16 to 18 year olds making choices based on some ideal employment outcome that will likely become outdated by the time they get to that stage of their life anyway.

Not all, but many of the people who follow some ideal vocational education plan tend to be the children of immigrant parents who have helicoptered so many other parts of their child's lives because they themselves had to fight their way out of a crab bucket. 

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9 minutes ago, Blue Square Thing said:

Well, you *can* have that, but you have to be willing to pay for that out of general taxation.

I paid precisely £0 for my university education - all four years of it. From that investment, the British state has gotten 30 years of high school teaching as a result - something I couldn't have done without the degree they allowed me to get.

It's a question of whether you want the value added from university-level educated people in your employment system or not. Or how far you minimise the debt for those who produce the most "value" in the long term

Well of course.  We can have whatever we want if someone is going to pay for it.  General taxation, it is a matter of how much that is going to be to keep the best (or some facsimile of the best) here to teach the kids and do the research etc.

You say you paid aprox 0, but of course that is not true unless your effective tax rate was/is the same as mine and my 35k for education.

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56 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I find it curious that that millenials (at least as defined as being the boomer's children) are now past college age, but I see my college continuing to increase enrollment. Where are all these kids coming from? Are there colleges at the other end of the pipeline starting to emptying out or closing down? One thing is for sure, the investor class has no qualms about assuming enrollment in Ann Arbor won't be falling any time soon. A number I would guess must be over $100 million has been poured into off campus student housing construction in the last few years. Seems to fly in the face of the demographic trends.

international kids.

and they pay more!

prestigious schools like michigan will be fine.  its the directional schools and the smaller, less prestigious schools that will feel (and are feeling) the pinch.

but dont worry, the endless supply of administrators will continue to expand as they make professors teach more classes with TAs.  after all, every schools needs an assistant to the assistant vice provost in charge of diversity and inclusion.

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1 minute ago, Charles Liston said:

Yes, there has never been a child who turned off the lights in rooms that they were no longer in, or who turned off the television when they weren't watching it, until they got their first apartment and their first electrical bill.  Real life teaches the lesson that nagging parents, or an educational system, never could.

Well, you say that...

Both of my children do that - even when I'm clearly about to go back into the sodding room. I blame Greta.

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3 minutes ago, Blue Square Thing said:

Well, you say that...

Both of my children do that - even when I'm clearly about to go back into the sodding room. I blame Greta.

I forgot about Greta.

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13 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

spot on

I agree it is close, but I have a qualm with the "I paid 0" unless his effective tax rate is the same as those who have to pay 30-50k for education.  It all will usually wash out in the end.

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3 minutes ago, John_Brian_K said:

Well of course.  We can have whatever we want if someone is going to pay for it.  General taxation, it is a matter of how much that is going to be to keep the best (or some facsimile of the best) here to teach the kids and do the research etc.

You say you paid aprox 0, but of course that is not true unless your effective tax rate was/is the same as mine and my 35k for education.

Well, absolutely. And I'd have had no problem with paying a graduate tax on top of that as well fwiw.

Not that teachers here are paid anywhere near enough to even have to start to pay back tuition fee loans when they start work. It's more the value I like to think I might have added to thousands of children over the 30 years that's also contributed.

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1 minute ago, John_Brian_K said:

I agree it is close, but I have a qualm with the "I paid 0" unless his effective tax rate is the same as those who have to pay 30-50k for education.  It all will usually wash out in the end.

I should clarify - no one paid anything when I went to university. Tuition fees here are a new thing. It's something we decided to copy from you chaps.

My son will end up ~£28k in debt from his three years.

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1 minute ago, Blue Square Thing said:

Well, absolutely. And I'd have had no problem with paying a graduate tax on top of that as well fwiw.

Not that teachers here are paid anywhere near enough to even have to start to pay back tuition fee loans when they start work. It's more the value I like to think I might have added to thousands of children over the 30 years that's also contributed.

Teachers are under paid everywhere IMO.  In the end are you paying more for your education because of the tax rate over the course of your life as opposed to the person who borrows the money up front then pays it back after they start a career?  I would bet without having the numbers in front of me that the taxes you are going to pay over your life will FAR exceed the "up front" cost of education for those of us here.

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8 minutes ago, ROMAD1 said:

Not all, but many of the people who follow some ideal vocational education plan tend to be the children of immigrant parents who have helicoptered so many other parts of their child's lives because they themselves had to fight their way out of a crab bucket. 

More and more I sort of think that if you love something you're more likely to end up doing something positive with it.

Not everyone knows what they love when they're 18. I would have had no problem with my eldest saying he wanted to spend a year or two travelling or working or whathaveyou (although, with covid that would have been bollocked of course) if he'd needed to. My youngest may well do that. I just don't think there's a "right" answer. Heck, no one would ever set up that empanada business that becomes a national chain otherwise.

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It does open up the possibility of lower income to attend though, but by how much?  We already have a ton of programs that are aimed at those less fortunate that want to pursue higher education.

In my mind I see it almost as an insurance for education.  Everyone here pays insurance (as Chris Rock says "In case s h i*") some of us never use it and others need a large amount...the problem with education is that everyone will use it..so it would almost have to be a zero sum type deal..with added administrative costs of course.

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1 minute ago, Blue Square Thing said:

More and more I sort of think that if you love something you're more likely to end up doing something positive with it.

Not everyone knows what they love when they're 18. I would have had no problem with my eldest saying he wanted to spend a year or two travelling or working or whathaveyou (although, with covid that would have been bollocked of course) if he'd needed to. My youngest may well do that. I just don't think there's a "right" answer. Heck, no one would ever set up that empanada business that becomes a national chain otherwise.

How would your eldest pay for all that travelling?  I think back to when I left High School, no real prospects, but was working a full time respectable (for my age) job that I used to spring board to other opportunities with college mixed in.  There is no way I could have just left and (as Jules would have said from Pulp Fiction) "walked the earth".  My dad would have laughed at me and told me to get my stuff together.

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4 minutes ago, John_Brian_K said:

Teachers are under paid everywhere IMO.  In the end are you paying more for your education because of the tax rate over the course of your life as opposed to the person who borrows the money up front then pays it back after they start a career?  I would bet without having the numbers in front of me that the taxes you are going to pay over your life will FAR exceed the "up front" cost of education for those of us here.

That's an interesting question, and I don't know the answer to it. And have drunk far too much wine to want to calculate it.

What I have seen though is bright, well motivated people turn down the chance of a university education because of the up front cost. Now, I happen to have no problem with that, but I do think it's a bit of a shame that they felt they had to make that choice.

And if I do pay back more tax then, heck, that's a societal benefit that I'd be more than happy about.

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Just now, John_Brian_K said:

How would your eldest pay for all that travelling?  I think back to when I left High School, no real prospects, but was working a full time respectable (for my age) job that I used to spring board to other opportunities with college mixed in.  There is no way I could have just left and (as Jules would have said from Pulp Fiction) "walked the earth".  My dad would have laughed at me and told me to get my stuff together.

Yeah, for sure - I get that. I'd expect the travelling to be paid for in the normal way, by working, not entirely by the bank of mum and dad (although, you know, a bit of that would be OK - because when it comes down to it, they're your kids).

I think I'd rather that than feeling that he had to make a choice and stick to that choice even if he hated it.

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Just now, Blue Square Thing said:

That's an interesting question, and I don't know the answer to it. And have drunk far too much wine to want to calculate it.

What I have seen though is bright, well motivated people turn down the chance of a university education because of the up front cost. Now, I happen to have no problem with that, but I do think it's a bit of a shame that they felt they had to make that choice.

And if I do pay back more tax then, heck, that's a societal benefit that I'd be more than happy about.

Societal benefit is crucial, but we have 331,000,000 living here (thiird most in the world).  And it is really not up front....you do get like 20-30 years to pay it back.  Germany is the next closest in your union as far as population at 83,000,000 it is a fact people never want to talk about.  The over sight and admin costs alone trying to keep that all together...

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16 minutes ago, Charles Liston said:

I forgot about Greta.

Tbf, they did it even when they were little.

No idea why: it's not learned behaviour from their parents, I promise you.

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1 minute ago, Blue Square Thing said:

Yeah, for sure - I get that. I'd expect the travelling to be paid for in the normal way, by working, not entirely by the bank of mum and dad (although, you know, a bit of that would be OK - because when it comes down to it, they're your kids).

I think I'd rather that than feeling that he had to make a choice and stick to that choice even if he hated it.

No doubt.  For me and my kids I would have no issue with it, but I am much better off than my parents were when I was young.

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6 minutes ago, Blue Square Thing said:

More and more I sort of think that if you love something you're more likely to end up doing something positive with it.

Not everyone knows what they love when they're 18. I would have had no problem with my eldest saying he wanted to spend a year or two travelling or working or whathaveyou (although, with covid that would have been bollocked of course) if he'd needed to. My youngest may well do that. I just don't think there's a "right" answer. Heck, no one would ever set up that empanada business that becomes a national chain otherwise.

i’m trying to temper the wife’s attempt to drive the kid along a rail of expectation.  i certainly didn’t follow a straight path.  

well, it’s not like i was in prison. 

but i went from terrible high school student, to slacker, to community college, to Air Force, to motivated university student, to Air National Guard, to grad school, to finally getting a career like gig.

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26 minutes ago, Blue Square Thing said:

I increasingly think that there's an argument to be made that runs "**** it, study/do what you love".

So you may not get rich, but I'm getting tired of seeing 16 to 18 year olds making choices based on some ideal employment outcome that will likely become outdated by the time they get to that stage of their life anyway.*

*this may be influenced by age, cynicism and possibly too much wine as well.

If your parents are rich and can afford to help you out when you have no money to pay bills because you studied what you love and now cannot make ends meet I agree.  Those who do not....do not have that luxury.  This is what (in our country anyway) leads to the insufferable 'elite college kid' who is going because his parents are paying and expect him to go...the kid not having any thoughts about the future other than parties all day and night.  The one who knows his parents will have a wing of their mansions dedicated to them to live until they get their crap together.

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