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The Presidency of Joseph R. Biden

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Seems to me the solution is to tell people when they are 17 not to go to college if it isn't going to pay itself off.

Also, I suspect a lot of dropouts are among the indebted.

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6 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Also, I suspect a lot of dropouts are among the indebted.

Honestly, student debt relief should be targeted more at this cohort... the numbers are lower, and it would legit provide a stimulus to the economy.

People like me don't need it.

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11 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Seems to me the solution is to tell people when they are 17 not to go to college if it isn't going to pay itself off.

Also, I suspect a lot of dropouts are among the indebted.

I think there are too many going to college.  There should be more going to trade schools or working for a couple of years until they figure out what they want to do.  A lot of kids just don't get good advice though and don't know what they are getting into.    Of course, the colleges want to admit more students than they should because they want the money.    

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10 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Honestly, student debt relief should be targeted more at this cohort... the numbers are lower, and it would legit provide a stimulus to the economy.

People like me don't need it.

Sets up a clear moral hazard though.

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6 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Sets up a clear moral hazard though.

It's a fair point.

I do think that we do a poor job in this country of educating kids about the ways to make a living that do not involve college. And I suspect a number of folks in that situation may have been led astray because of it

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17 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I think there are too many going to college.  There should be more going to trade schools or working for a couple of years until they figure out what they want to do.  A lot of kids just don't get good advice though and don't know what they are getting into.    Of course, the colleges want to admit more students than they should because they want the money.    

Exactly right.

And while I understand personal responsibility, you're also talking about kids who aren't emancipated or are on the precipice of emancipation making these decisions. It makes it harder for me to chalk it up to them considering this

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What country do we live in that we don't want more educated, critical thinking people?   I want to live in a country where everyone including the septic tank repair guy and the HVAC installer knows the nuances of the Constitution.  Maybe we should add a year to K-12 for adult-hood training.

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I want more educated and critical thinking people, but it's not practical to spend tens of thousands of dollars on it and go in debt for years unless you are committed to it.  Going to college was the best thing I ever did.  It taught me how to think critically and opened up lots of opportunities for me, but college is not for everybody.   You have to really work at it like it's a job in order to get anything out of it.  If you are not committed to it, it's a waste of time and money.  Someone can also learn how to think through their work or through self education (although I don't think many in this country do that). 

  

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1 minute ago, tiger337 said:

I want more educated and critical thinking people, but it's not practical to spend tens of thousands of dollars on it and go in debt for years unless you are committed to it.  Going to college was the best thing I ever did.  It taught me how to think critically and opened up lots of opportunities for me, but college is not for everybody.   You have to really work at it like it's a job in order to get anything out of it.  If you are not committed to it, it's a waste of time and money.  Someone can also learn how to think through their work or through self education (although I don't think many in this country do that). 

  

Watching my son as he considers colleges this year.  A lot of thoughts back to my college experience.  He's very interested in complex subjects and wants to learn, but the availability of Mom and Dad's wi-fi router and the fact that he hasn't been able to experience his prime teen years like most of us did have really stunted his interest in breaking away.  

 

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11 hours ago, mtutiger said:

Exactly right.

And while I understand personal responsibility, you're also talking about kids who aren't emancipated or are on the precipice of emancipation making these decisions. It makes it harder for me to chalk it up to them considering this

and hounded by for profit colleges that make outlandish promises at a cost triple that of a community college who then go on to be a medical biller or nursing assistant for $14 an hour with $75K in debt... and they could have probably went for free at a local college.  Not everyone has a support system to guide them.  Many are the first people in their family to go to college and everyone's excited for them.  They had some high pressured sales guy in their living room treating them like a star football player and they signed the papers... like a time share.  And we as a society did a poor job, as stated previously, of telling kids that it is ok to not go to college.  We've said the opposite for so long.  There's no easy answer and somebody will get screwed and many will take advantage of it.... but I don't think that's a reason to not do it. It won't be perfect and there will always be anecdotes.  The problem we created was letting college get to be so expensive relative to other nations and making the assumption that everybody needs to do.  Now we have to pay that price.

 

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I think there is also a disconnect among our returning vet population who went the online school route and didn't get the socialization of the brick and mortar college experience.  If you were a person suffering from PTSD and for want of a better term, the jarhead mentality, your best option to shake that would be to mix it up on a campus with a bunch of airheads who needed your life experience and who could provide you with an alternate perspective.   My undergrad experience was at UM-Dearborn so I was sort of in the half-world of University of Mom and Dad (lived at home for part of that).  When I finally got an apartment in my sophomore year I was able to be a grown up again after having been out of the Air Force for two years.   I wasn't even a PTSD sufferer but I had all sorts of screwy notions that the experience shook. 

Separate but related.  Spoke about my son who is in the choosing mode right now.  The wife and I repeatedly tell him that he's not going to vocational ed to learn how to be someone's chemist or engineer.  He's going to get a universal education.

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I tell anyone thinking of going to school get in the medical field. My wife the RN can go ANYWHERE in the country and get great pay. She is an ICU charge nurse seasoned vet at this point so that helps. Example, in her ICU they have alot of "Traveler" nurses. Working 3 month assignments and make on average $60-$80 an hour plus housing expenses. RN's are required to have a bachelor's degree now to work in ICU's. There are a few nurses that came over to hang out recently they are 23-28 years old, have paid off the college loans already and own modest homes in other areas of the country and are working on paying them off as well. It's really amazing how much money they are making at a young age.

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18 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

I tell anyone thinking of going to school get in the medical field. My wife the RN can go ANYWHERE in the country and get great pay.

And it's not even enough. Too many hospital systems treat their nurses like disposable commodities. I don't know what the trend is right now but in the recent past the wastage rate among RNs has been pretty high.

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9 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

And it's not even enough. Too many hospital systems treat their nurses like disposable commodities. I don't know what the trend is right now but in the recent past the wastage rate among RNs has been pretty high.

True, my wife is 43 and is one of the elder in her unit. There was a big washout of older nurses when charting went full electronic. Many of the older nurses were not very digital savvy. Also most hospitals require 12 hour shifts (turns into 13-14 shift with charting and report) unless you work in the "band-aid" side of the hospital (My wifes term). These are more of the 9-5 jobs but are not qualified to be ICU nurses.

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3 hours ago, ROMAD1 said:

What country do we live in that we don't want more educated, critical thinking people?   I want to live in a country where everyone including the septic tank repair guy and the HVAC installer knows the nuances of the Constitution.  Maybe we should add a year to K-12 for adult-hood training.

You will not find a person who will bang the drum for education more than me.  Over the course of the last 5-6 years this has REALLY hit home for me and become almost a magic wand of sorts for so many issues the country faces (shoot, you could say the world).  The tricky thing IMO is you HAVE to balance "free education" with "best education"....to me this is the crux...you cannot simply have free (or extremely cheaper) education and still maintain or rise to best education.  There is a balance...and one I am not going to claim to know.  Also one I am sure is extremely difficult to tight rope.

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2 hours ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

I tell anyone thinking of going to school get in the medical field. My wife the RN can go ANYWHERE in the country and get great pay. She is an ICU charge nurse seasoned vet at this point so that helps. Example, in her ICU they have alot of "Traveler" nurses. Working 3 month assignments and make on average $60-$80 an hour plus housing expenses. RN's are required to have a bachelor's degree now to work in ICU's. There are a few nurses that came over to hang out recently they are 23-28 years old, have paid off the college loans already and own modest homes in other areas of the country and are working on paying them off as well. It's really amazing how much money they are making at a young age.

It may sound horrible, but I am going to nudge my kids into careers that I know have high paying salaries.  If they want to pursue the art of clay molding they can go right ahead, but the goal is going to get a degree in a field that has high paying careers waiting for them.  We already do it now with my daughter who is super bright.  Dr, engineer, astronaut!  She loves dancing and the idea of being a ballerina...we encourage the study (which we have not been able to officially do because of COVID yet) and we WILL sign her up for classes, but as a hobby.  I am not going to delude my daughter into thinking she can make a career out of being a ballerina, but I am not going to discourage her love of it or her ability to practice it.  This will no doubt become a trickier thing to navigate when she gets older, but we are starting to put ideas into her head that will help her later in life hopefully.  EVERYTHING costs money, you need to go to school and make money to be able to have things you need.  We do not beat this into her head, but we do mention it from time to time especially if she inquires about it.  "Daddy, why do you have to go to work so much?"...on the explanation of the heat in the house, the roof over the head, the fridge with food in it, the electricity to power the computers etc etc.

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16 hours ago, tiger337 said:

I think there are too many going to college.  There should be more going to trade schools or working for a couple of years until they figure out what they want to do.  A lot of kids just don't get good advice though and don't know what they are getting into.    Of course, the colleges want to admit more students than they should because they want the money.    

It depends on what you mean by "college".

Conservatives who disparage the word typically conjure up visions of entitled kids lounging around at taxpayer-supported state universities majoring in art history or "black studies", then flipping burgers for work when they get out. But I think these days there might be more people at online universities or DeVry-type schools studying for jobs in advanced blue-collar or so-called pink-collar professions or vocations. They still have to take out substantial loans to fund the education, but many then find that there is a dearth of jobs in the field that looked so wide open and lucrative when they went into it. And if many others who do get in find that many of the jobs they studied for all those years will pay barely better than minimum wage for years on end. Then they get stuck on that endless student load debt treadmill. Rinse and repeat.

At the same time, most of the professions of the present, let alone the future, aren't graduate-high-school-go-to-the-factory-and-get-a-job vocations. Most adult jobs require some proof of higher education or specialized training matriculation, none of which are free at the moment, and all of which could broadly be described as "college", even if they're really expensive trade schools. So the idea that more kids should forego "college" is fraught with peril for their future, because there is no future for people who don't study for a grown-up profession or vocation.

EDIT: I see that several posts have also hit on many of these points.

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4 hours ago, ROMAD1 said:

What country do we live in that we don't want more educated, critical thinking people?   I want to live in a country where everyone including the septic tank repair guy and the HVAC installer knows the nuances of the Constitution.  Maybe we should add a year to K-12 for adult-hood training.

Maybe we should consider ending academic schooling on a 100% basis after junior or even sophomore year, then transition kids for the last year or two to a mix of upperclassman academia and what you eloquently coined as adulthood training, which would include at least one year of intense civics education. I would also add applied personal financial education and adult relationship training, not just marriage, but training for maintaining respectful relationships with other adults at home, work, and in the world. How's that for pie in the sky?

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1 minute ago, chasfh said:

Maybe we should consider ending academic schooling on a 100% basis after junior or even sophomore year, then transition kids for the last year or two to a mix of upperclassman academia and what you eloquently coined as adulthood training, which would include at least one year of intense civics education. I would also add applied personal financial education and adult relationship training, not just marriage, but training for maintaining respectful relationships with other adults at home, work, and in the world. How's that for pie in the sky?

I really like the last one.  Relationship ethics and respect. 

Personal financial education could follow the same format as the Progressive Ads where they show people how not to act like their parents.  "Should you buy a plane ticket without insurance or non-refundable when you don't know if the other people in your trip can actually make the trip?"  "The answer is no."

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1 hour ago, ROMAD1 said:

I really like the last one.  Relationship ethics and respect. 

Personal financial education could follow the same format as the Progressive Ads where they show people how not to act like their parents.  "Should you buy a plane ticket without insurance or non-refundable when you don't know if the other people in your trip can actually make the trip?"  "The answer is no."

I know how people, even those who are not traditional conservatives, would argue that those lessons are best left to parents, not to public schools, and that make sense on paper. But in the world, not only do a high percentage of parents ignore teaching this critical (or "airy-fairy", depending on your POV) skill to their kids, another high percentage of parents actively teach their kids the wrong lessons about relationships (e.g., might makes right; defend your honor above all else; you have to control your woman by force; etc.) And since we the public suffer the fallout of the bad (or lack of) lessons learned by such kids in their homes, I believe it is completely appropriate to teach an expertly-designed curriculum of relationship ethics in public schools.

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1 hour ago, chasfh said:

It depends on what you mean by "college".

Conservatives who disparage the word typically conjure up visions of entitled kids lounging around at state universities majoring in art history, then flipping burgers for work when they get out. But I think these days there might be more people at online universities or DeVry-type schools studying for jobs in advanced blue-collar or so-called pink-collar professions or vocations. They still have to take out substantial loans to fund the education, but many then find that there is a dearth of jobs in the field that looked so wide open and lucrative when they went into it. And if many others who do get in find that many of the jobs they studied for all those years will pay barely better than minimum wage for years on end. Then they get stuck on that endless student load debt treadmill. Rinse and repeat.

At the same time, most of the professions of the present, let alone the future, aren't graduate-high-school-go-to-the-factory-and-get-a-job vocations. Most adult jobs require some proof of higher education or specialized training matriculation, none of which are free at the moment, and all of which could broadly be described as "college", even if they're really expensive trade schools. So the idea that more kids should forego "college" is fraught with peril for their future, because there is no future for people who don't study for a grown-up profession or vocation.

EDIT: I see that several posts have also hit on many of these points.

I meant university.  

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1 hour ago, ROMAD1 said:

I really like the last one.  Relationship ethics and respect. 

Personal financial education could follow the same format as the Progressive Ads where they show people how not to act like their parents.  "Should you buy a plane ticket without insurance or non-refundable when you don't know if the other people in your trip can actually make the trip?"  "The answer is no."

Unless you do not mind going alone.  😉

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a 4 year college degree is not for everyone, nor should it be required to be.  unfortunately, a lot of jobs now require a college degree when they really have no business doing so.  do you need a college degree to be a secretary?  or a claims adjuster?  no, but they will oftentimes require you to have one.

and they'll get them.  why?  too many people have college degrees for the amount of available jobs in the market for them.

to digress a little more, there is a popular theory now that the downfall of civilizations comes when your educated elites run out of opportunities.  and the combination of AI and the abundance of college degrees producing more "elites" or people who think themselves to be elite thanks to their degree, will produce a revolution in america/the west soon.  it wont be trumpism, it will be a revolt of the elites when they can no longer "move up the ladder."

just as an anecdotal piece to that, we've hired lawyers fresh out of school as claims people.  because there arent enough legal jobs to go around and the supply of lawyers is so high.

counterpoint: the milennial generation is so large that it has flooded the market with college grads, and the smaller upcoming generations will reduce the supply significantly.

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11 minutes ago, Buddha said:

counterpoint: the milennial generation is so large that it has flooded the market with college grads, and the smaller upcoming generations will reduce the supply significantly.

I find it curious that that millenials (at least as defined as being the boomer's children) are now past college age, but I see my college continuing to increase enrollment. Where are all these kids coming from? Are there colleges at the other end of the pipeline starting to emptying out or closing down? One thing is for sure, the investor class has no qualms about assuming enrollment in Ann Arbor won't be falling any time soon. A number I would guess must be over $100 million has been poured into off campus student housing construction in the last few years. Seems to fly in the face of the demographic trends.

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