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RatkoVarda

2020-21 Off season

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The rules in 1954 stated that a player signed for a bonus and salary over $4000 had to play in the Majors for two years or be subject to the draft. Basically the Dodgers signed Clemente to keep him away from the Giants who also had interest. The Dodgers basically knew when they signed him they would probably lose him

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/roberto-clemente/

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1 minute ago, CMRivdog said:

The rules in 1954 stated that a player signed for a bonus and salary over $4000 had to play in the Majors for two years or be subject to the draft. Basically the Dodgers signed Clemente to keep him away from the Giants who also had interest. The Dodgers basically knew when they signed him they would probably lose him

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/roberto-clemente/

Quote

Buzzie Bavasi had the power to determine Clemente’s fate. In 1955, Bavasi told Pittsburgh writer Les Biederman that the Dodgers’ only purpose in signing Clemente was to keep him away from the Giants, even though they knew they would eventually lose him to another team.16 Some writers said an informal quota system was in effect in the early years following the breaking of baseball’s color barrier, but this is not supported by the facts.17In his biography of Clemente, Kal Wagenheim wrote that the Dodgers would never start all five of their black players in the same game. The box scores prove that is false. (There are other reasons to question the existence of a quota, although it is beyond the realm of this article to fully explore the issue.)18

In a 2005 e-mail message to the author, Bavasi wrote that while there was no quota system, race was the factor in the club’s decision to have Clemente play in Montreal: “The concern had nothing to do with quotas, but the thought was too many minorities might be a problem with the white players. Not so, I said. Winning was the important thing. I agree with the [Dodgers’] board that we should get a player’s opinion and I would be guided by the player’s opinion. The board called in Jackie Robinson. ****, now I felt great. Jackie was told the problem and after thinking about it awhile, he asked me who would be sent out if Clemente took one of the spots. I said George Shuba. Jackie agreed that Shuba would be the one to go. Then he said Shuba was not among the best players on the club, but he was the most popular. With that he shocked me by saying, and I quote: ‘If I were the GM, I would not bring Clemente to the club and send Shuba or any other white player down. If I did this, I would be setting our program back five years.’”

 

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One other thing that played into Clemente going to the Pirates was that Bavasi thought he had a deal with Pirate GM Branch Rickey to draft another player. Rickey and Dodger owner Walter O’Malley got into a major argument and Rickey backed out of the deal

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1 hour ago, Keepleyland2 said:

And if you look at the Rule 5 list for 2020 there are 18 more Foley's. Guys that throw hard with no control are a dime a dozen nowadays. No big deal. 

I think you are understating him. There may not be another fastball in the Tigers system that can match his, I'm not talking just velo, and his control ain't that bad. On the other hand, the Tigers know him better than anyone, and they didn't protect him.

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1 hour ago, Casimir said:

He was selected from the Brooklyn Dodgers in the rule 5.  Maybe the Dodgers just thought he wasn’t worth protecting as a player?  His AAA numbers weren’t all that impressive.

That's true, the Dodgers were pretty loaded, too.

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2 hours ago, tiger337 said:

Liston, what's the best way to get into Canada for your Rule V party?  I can either do a  bushwhack and you can meet me behind the abandoned barn or you can drive across the border and I get in your trunk.  How big is your trunk?

I've been thinking about alternatives.  Can you get to Lewiston NY?  If so, I will rent a boat across the Niagara River in Queenston ON, and watch for your flashlight signal.

Or, if you can get to Plattsburgh NY you are about a half hour taxi ride from the Quebec border.  Just follow the flow of migrants, you can't miss it.  When you get to the border tell the RCMP that you are seeking asylum.  They will tell you that you are entering illegally and they will have to arrest you (they'll be nice about it).  Just smile and say OK.  I'll show up as your immigration consultant.

It's also not quite true that we have closed the border completely.  It is open for essential travel.  So if you tell them at the border crossing in Niagara Falls that you are going to a Rule V party, there's a good chance that they will agree that it is essential.

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FG re non-tendereds; cannot disagree more; no way they don't offer Daniel a contract; Farmer could be let go, but that only saves a few bucks

Detroit Tigers Non-Tender Candidates

Likely Tough Call Unlikely
Daniel Norris Michael Fulmer Matt Boyd
Buck Farmer N/A N/A

This is largely a result of the Tigers have beaucoup young pitching to add to the 40-man. I think Matthew Boyd would be a possibility in a vacuum but in this situation it’d be an admission of how badly the Tigers whiffed on trading him during his peak value.

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19 minutes ago, Charles Liston said:

I've been thinking about alternatives.  Can you get to Lewiston NY?  If so, I will rent a boat across the Niagara River in Queenston ON, and watch for your flashlight signal.

Or, if you can get to Plattsburgh NY you are about a half hour taxi ride from the Quebec border.  Just follow the flow of migrants, you can't miss it.  When you get to the border tell the RCMP that you are seeking asylum.  They will tell you that you are entering illegally and they will have to arrest you (they'll be nice about it).  Just smile and say OK.  I'll show up as your immigration consultant.

It's also not quite true that we have closed the border completely.  It is open for essential travel.  So if you tell them at the border crossing in Niagara Falls that you are going to a Rule V party, there's a good chance that they will agree that it is essential.

That's a good point about this being a essential travel.  I will travel with IdahoBert to make it look more respectable.  If this doesn't work, I like the idea of the boat trip across the Niagara River.    

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13 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

FG re non-tendereds; cannot disagree more; no way they don't offer Daniel a contract; Farmer could be let go, but that only saves a few bucks

Detroit Tigers Non-Tender Candidates

Likely Tough Call Unlikely
Daniel Norris Michael Fulmer Matt Boyd
Buck Farmer N/A N/A

This is largely a result of the Tigers have beaucoup young pitching to add to the 40-man. I think Matthew Boyd would be a possibility in a vacuum but in this situation it’d be an admission of how badly the Tigers whiffed on trading him during his peak value.

I doubt Norris gets non-tendered.  I also don't think Farmer gets non-tendered, but I wouldn't care if he did.  I think he gets too much love.   

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14 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I doubt Norris gets non-tendered.  I also don't think Farmer gets non-tendered, but I wouldn't care if he did.  I think he gets too much love.   

His name is BUCK FARMER. 

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35 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

FG re non-tendereds; cannot disagree more; no way they don't offer Daniel a contract; Farmer could be let go, but that only saves a few bucks

Detroit Tigers Non-Tender Candidates

Likely Tough Call Unlikely
Daniel Norris Michael Fulmer Matt Boyd
Buck Farmer N/A N/A

This is largely a result of the Tigers have beaucoup young pitching to add to the 40-man. I think Matthew Boyd would be a possibility in a vacuum but in this situation it’d be an admission of how badly the Tigers whiffed on trading him during his peak value.

Norris will be interesting because he his pitch analytics profile similar to the kind that Houston liked to work with - or at least they used to. The more he succeeds in calming down his delivery the less compelling his stuff has gotten. Probably the inevitable trade-off - maybe the pitcher he looked like he could be coming up in Toronto was never sustainable.

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27 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Norris will be interesting because he his pitch analytics profile similar to the kind that Houston liked to work with - or at least they used to. The more he succeeds in calming down his delivery the less compelling his stuff has gotten. Probably the inevitable trade-off - maybe the pitcher he looked like he could be coming up in Toronto was never sustainable.

Norris seems like a pretty good middle reliever and SS.

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2 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Norris will be interesting because he his pitch analytics profile similar to the kind that Houston liked to work with - or at least they used to. The more he succeeds in calming down his delivery the less compelling his stuff has gotten. Probably the inevitable trade-off - maybe the pitcher he looked like he could be coming up in Toronto was never sustainable.

i would keep norris.  fulmer is nothing special and can be let go.

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I won’t say Norris should or shouldn’t be released. I will say, I would hate to see him leave the organization. I have been a fan since he arrived...and that’s been a tough ride at times.

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You people wanting Norris over Fulmer are really starting to **** me off. 

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57 minutes ago, Yoda said:

You people wanting Norris over Fulmer are really starting to **** me off. 

Norris has better stuff, but he's massively inconsistent. Fulmer is more consistent - but also far more consistently hit. Both, either or neither of these guys might be out of MLB soon.

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11 hours ago, Yoda said:

You people wanting Norris over Fulmer are really starting to **** me off. 

Fulmer doesn't live in a van.  

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I have it on good authority that Norris practices the quart of blood technique. He leaves when he chooses to leave.

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11 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Norris has better stuff, but he's massively inconsistent. Fulmer is more consistent - but also far more consistently hit. Both, either or neither of these guys might be out of MLB soon.

Fulmer is more mentally prepared to pitch. "Stuff" can be fixed. I don't think Norris will ever get out of his own way. 

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1 hour ago, Yoda said:

Fulmer is more mentally prepared to pitch. "Stuff" can be fixed. I don't think Norris will ever get out of his own way. 

I don't know how much success pitching coaches ever have 'fixing' guys whose fast balls are flat, but no argument with the part that Norris is a head case. O.o

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I don't think stuff can be fixed very easily, nor can mental preparation.  I don't have much faith in either one of them, but both have shown enough at various times where I wouldn't give up just yet.    

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4 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I don't think stuff can be fixed very easily, nor can mental preparation.  I don't have much faith in either one of them, but both have shown enough at various times where I wouldn't give up just yet.    

Even though it seemed a waste of potential talent, Gardy probably had the right idea with Norris - put him in the BP where he can't think about his starts or at least bring him in as a 'second' starter where the game is already in flow. Norris is also the kind of case where maybe a new coaching regime could click for him.

I think the best case with Fulmer may end up being the BP also. If he gets his velo back - which he may, he's still not a more than once through the order guy as long as it's all sinker-slider because hitters adjust to that too easily on second look - but it can probably work from the BP, especially if you bring him in after a guy that does throw a high riding fastball.

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Norris's FB seemed to perk up when he went to the pen, which makes sense.

Fulmer's FB is in junk territory....if he can make it a plus pitch again, he will be effective again too.  Moving him to the pen couldnt hurt at tgis point IMO.

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46 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

Norris's FB seemed to perk up when he went to the pen, which makes sense.

Fulmer's FB is in junk territory....if he can make it a plus pitch again, he will be effective again too.  Moving him to the pen couldnt hurt at tgis point IMO.

I'm on board. Let the kids start. 

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Remember Fulmer was in year-1 post TJ. I'm not confident in his return, but he is young enough where I wouldn't write him off yet either. 

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