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2020-21 Off season

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4 hours ago, leflore said:

I disagree. One big difference is that Al inherited a team with several bloated contracts and a poor farm. Even Harvard folks would take longer righting that garbage barge. To build a winner quicker Illitch would have had to sign off on the Tigers having some rebuild time while keeping a big payroll. Al (and I believe Chris) decided to tear down all the way. And it coincided with a shift where other teams decided to keep their own prospects rather than trade them. It was going to take longer. Al made some bad FA signings. But overall he's done an average job imho. 

They could have improved faster while keeping the payroll at or below average.  They could have been in a definitive position to win and compete in the next year or two at latest....rather than the "maybe 2022?????" we speculate about right now.

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7 hours ago, Shelton said:

These Chris I. takes are unwarranted. He can’t prove that he will spend when the time is right until the time is right. The time has not been right. Sorry that your favorite team wasn’t as good as you wished they could be, but Chris I. telling them to spend some money over the past three seasons wasn’t going to change that. 

I'm certainly way more unhappy with his choice of GM then with his payroll decisions to date. 

However IMO, Chris is moving too slow on the payroll side of things.   I'm not saying he should have spent to compete this year, but we shouldnt be waiting for Greene and Tork to lead this offense, they are at least 3 years away from providing plus level production.

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1 hour ago, Buddha said:

and again, i dont know how this disproves my point of yzerman being handed to him and him having to do little to no work to find a good executive because he ALREADY KNEW ONE.

as opposed to baseball where he would have actually had to do some digging and instead chose to keep going with the guy he knew in the organization because...why again?  cause he was so successful before?

come on.

The question is did he make an active move to change things or not? If you think Yzerman walked away from Tampa without knowing where he would be a year later that’s your right, but I don’t for a second, and I‘m not naive enough to believe that was not Ilitch’s doing. 

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6 hours ago, Buddha said:

the best part about this is that ozzie guillen has already declared himself "not a candidate."

ok ozzie.  we get it, you need to be the center of attention at all times.

Tony LaRussa is a candidate.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2020/10/12/tony-la-russa-candidate-white-sox-manager/5971913002/

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8 hours ago, sabretooth said:

They could have improved faster while keeping the payroll at or below average.  They could have been in a definitive position to win and compete in the next year or two at latest....rather than the "maybe 2022?????" we speculate about right now.

Al made a big mistake with Zimm and smaller mistakes with Pelfrey and Lowe. Those are on him. But Miggy, VMart, Fielder, JV were all on the books when Al took over, and the farm was in the basement of mlb. And there was no analytic staff. And a poor recent history of player development. Tampa has maintained a low payroll and elite farm. Florida was able to find a taker for Stanton because he was younger than Miggy and VMart. You can argue Al should have received more for JD, Ian, JUp - but how, if nobody was offering more? And JV had 5/10. Options were limited for his trade. 

Al has made mistakes and hasn't done anything great, but imho he has been ok. I don't get the hate for Al, but I know most here likely don't get why I don't hate him. I reserve my hate for the current state of politics. And liver and onions. And Wilson Phillips. 

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I don't hate Al. He isn't a good executive. The only thing he has done is lose a lot and reap the rewards in the draft.

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My take on AA again...

He hasn’t exhibited any reason to convince me he is a good GM to this point. He looks good on draft day each year because his team sucked louder than anyone else in the league the year prior. I will say his best draft was this year. But, he has top pick options on draft day because he still has the crappiest team in the league. He’s still signing ‘plug the hole’ players in my opinion. I’ll give him a mulligan for this season. Although I believe the team should have shown some improvement either way. Last place is still last place. 

We’ve read about the orgs endeavor into analytics. This means nothing until there are meaningful results being obvious through competition. To date, I’m not seeing it. This rebuild is three years old. Tigers finish last again. Top tier picks in the draft three years running. Miggy is the only dead contract on the books. Time for this team to be consistently competitive. 

Anxious to see who AA chooses a a manager. This will be a huge decision. 

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I agree that it's time to take steps. If they don't show some improvement in the coming year, and significant improvement with playoff hopes after that, I too will push to see Al gone. He was transparent with his plan following the JV trade and said this will take a few years. He said he will build the farm and an analytic dept and he has stuck to that plan. He also said Chris I. Is committed and they will spend when ready. They are nearing that point.

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36 minutes ago, 1776 said:

My take on AA again...

He hasn’t exhibited any reason to convince me he is a good GM to this point. He looks good on draft day each year because his team sucked louder than anyone else in the league the year prior. I will say his best draft was this year. But, he has top pick options on draft day because he still has the crappiest team in the league. He’s still signing ‘plug the hole’ players in my opinion. I’ll give him a mulligan for this season. Although I believe the team should have shown some improvement either way. Last place is still last place. 

We’ve read about the orgs endeavor into analytics. This means nothing until there are meaningful results being obvious through competition. To date, I’m not seeing it. This rebuild is three years old. Tigers finish last again. Top tier picks in the draft three years running. Miggy is the only dead contract on the books. Time for this team to be consistently competitive. 

Anxious to see who AA chooses a a manager. This will be a huge decision. 

But hey, the org is spending money! 

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the "best" thing Al has done is trade vets for Candelario, Parades and Willi - a fairly standard GM move.

in 2017 draft they tried to pay below slot for earlier guys and free up money later and got ... Sam McMillan

if the teams ahead of you have more talent and smarter people and/or more money, i think some bold move is required

Al does not seem to be able to do that

 

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I give Al a solid "B" grade but not sure a "B" will bring a championship at least not without the owner being financially committed to spend to fill in his shortcomings. We will find out soon because his high draft picks must produce, he needs to pick a solid manager and its time, or soon will be, to invest in free agents. On the latter I think many teams will be soft in this years market so Al has a chance to be bold and make a preemptive strike. Alas I do not see bold as part of Al's make up. 

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How in the world does he get a B? Are there no grades below that? 

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26 minutes ago, Yoda said:

How in the world does he get a B? Are there no grades below that? 

In grad school, if you get below a B, it's pretty much a failure.  

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2 hours ago, leflore said:

Al made a big mistake with Zimm and smaller mistakes with Pelfrey and Lowe. Those are on him. But Miggy, VMart, Fielder, JV were all on the books when Al took over, and the farm was in the basement of mlb. And there was no analytic staff. And a poor recent history of player development. Tampa has maintained a low payroll and elite farm. Florida was able to find a taker for Stanton because he was younger than Miggy and VMart. You can argue Al should have received more for JD, Ian, JUp - but how, if nobody was offering more? And JV had 5/10. Options were limited for his trade. 

Al has made mistakes and hasn't done anything great, but imho he has been ok. I don't get the hate for Al, but I know most here likely don't get why I don't hate him. I reserve my hate for the current state of politics. And liver and onions. And Wilson Phillips. 

You hate liver and onions?  

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2 hours ago, leflore said:

Al made a big mistake with Zimm and smaller mistakes with Pelfrey and Lowe. Those are on him. But Miggy, VMart, Fielder, JV were all on the books when Al took over, and the farm was in the basement of mlb. And there was no analytic staff. And a poor recent history of player development. Tampa has maintained a low payroll and elite farm. Florida was able to find a taker for Stanton because he was younger than Miggy and VMart. You can argue Al should have received more for JD, Ian, JUp - but how, if nobody was offering more? And JV had 5/10. Options were limited for his trade. 

Al has made mistakes and hasn't done anything great, but imho he has been ok. I don't get the hate for Al, but I know most here likely don't get why I don't hate him. I reserve my hate for the current state of politics. And liver and onions. And Wilson Phillips. 

but he played a major role in creating the farm system that was devoid of talent!

the only difference between then and now is that they're picking in the top 3 every year.  and we dont really have any evidence yet that he hasnt screwed those picks up either.

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23 minutes ago, Buddha said:

but he played a major role in creating the farm system that was devoid of talent!

the only difference between then and now is that they're picking in the top 3 every year.  and we dont really have any evidence yet that he hasnt screwed those picks up either.

yep

the Astros picked #1 for 3 straight years, and blew it twice! Correa, Appel, Aiken

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I have grown less favorable of Avila's work over the years.

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current

10 minutes ago, Casimir said:

I have grown less favorable of Avila's work over the years.

To me Mize plays large in Avila's evaluation. If Mize fails for any reason other than injury, it argues the value of everything Al has been putting in place isn't very high.

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2 hours ago, Buddha said:

but he played a major role in creating the farm system that was devoid of talent!

the only difference between then and now is that they're picking in the top 3 every year.  and we dont really have any evidence yet that he hasnt screwed those picks up either.

DD traded the farm away. DD gave Detroit one of their best decades but it was not sustainable. Al inherited on the verge of the rebuild. Mr I was still with us so he made one final, bad push - but thank God he talked Mr. I out of signing Chris Davis! Like I said, I'm not praising Al. Not at all. Just saying he was given a hole to climb out of. He has to be near surface ground now, ready to build up. If that doesn't happen, which includes Chris needing to spend, then I too would push Al out the door. 

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2 hours ago, Charles Liston said:

You hate liver and onions?  

I have tried to like this combo 57 times. Each time I spit it out, usually at my neighbor's tiny yapper faux dog.

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1 hour ago, leflore said:

DD traded the farm away. DD gave Detroit one of their best decades but it was not sustainable. Al inherited on the verge of the rebuild. Mr I was still with us so he made one final, bad push - but thank God he talked Mr. I out of signing Chris Davis! Like I said, I'm not praising Al. Not at all. Just saying he was given a hole to climb out of. He has to be near surface ground now, ready to build up. If that doesn't happen, which includes Chris needing to spend, then I too would push Al out the door. 

but he was there telling DD where to dig.

the farm system was not completely devoid of talent because DD traded it all away, it was devoid of talent because whoever was in charge of drafting, scouting and development was not good at their jobs.  and Avila was a part of that structure.

sure, maybe avila was the only one in the room who identified good players and DD told him no every time....but i find that hard to believe.  

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3 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

current

To me Mize plays large in Avila's evaluation. If Mize fails for any reason other than injury, it argues the value of everything Al has been putting in place isn't very high.

IMO, everybody in baseball would have taken Mize #1. It wasn't close.

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31 minutes ago, cruzer1 said:

IMO, everybody in baseball would have taken Mize #1. It wasn't close.

but isn't that the point of the hard data -  to see what the conventional wisdom does not? If the physics can't tell you the difference between stuff that gets out college hitters and stuff that gets out MLB hitters, it is overrated. Now that said, I think a lot of Mize's problem so far have been command and that may well be for no more reason than that he hasn't pitched enough in total since he was drafted - but we shall see.

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1 hour ago, cruzer1 said:

IMO, everybody in baseball would have taken Mize #1. It wasn't close.

As well as Torkelson and Greene at their slots. It's not as though Avila pulled a genius move out of his hat on these. The credit that Avila gets for building the farm system on the backs of those picks is that he didn't screw them up. The Tigers farm system is very top heavy, and bereft of the kind of depth we should expect of someone whose strategy was to scorch the Comerica Park earth for four years to get that.

But the proof in the pudding is not just in the picks--it's in the development. The number of Tiger farmhands who hit their low ceiling here and got shipped out in trades, only to become good players and even stars elsewhere, is practically legion. As G2 implies: if the Avila administration can't turn Mize, Manning and Skubal into front end rotation pieces, if not stars ... well, G says it would argue that the value of Avila's plan isn't high. That's being kind. I would boil the assessment down to "abject failure borne of incompetence" if those three were to flop here.

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