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Gardy Retires - immediately it's the LLoyd show now

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10 hours ago, Charles Liston said:

I agree with that.  Hinch has shown that he's either (a) a cheater, or (b) incredibly weak because he wouldn't shut the cheating down.  (b) is worse than (a).

OTOH, incredibly weak managers are easier for front offices to control.

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1 minute ago, tiger337 said:

There are only two choices?  Hinch and McClendon?

Never said that. 

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I think they chose Gardenhire, in part, because fans would remember him as a manager that used to win with a successful Twins team that beat the Tigers.  There is nothing about McClendon that impresses fans.  I don't see him as the safe easy Avila/C. Ilitch pick.  

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Bring Smokey out of retirement (again) and let him spin his magic, like 2006.  Offer to let him smoke his Pall Mall's in the dugout, if required.

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16 minutes ago, chasfh said:

In 2006, the Tigers were still more like five years away.

Two-thousand six was a one-off season during which several guys had career years, hardly anyone got hurt, and everything went right until October 21. They were in last place and under .500 two years later, and right at .500 and 13 games out four years later.

They didn't become a consistent division winner until 2011, and if I'm being honest, the worst division winner in the league each year, except for maybe 2013.

It was all fun while it was happening, no doubt, but 2006 was not exactly a coming out season for the franchise.

To be fair they had the best record in baseball at the ASB in 2007 and won 88 games... they had a stretch where they lost 9 of 10 in late July and early Aug.  I wouldn't call 2006 a one off.  Sure you could say that iteration got old fast but it wasn't like 2006 was a fluke.  They followed it up and fell short.

and I agree that the 2011-2014 run can look better in hindsight.  Not once in 9 playoff series, excluding the WS, did they have home field.  I distinctly remember leaving the last home game in 2012 unsure if they'd even make the playoffs with a week left, I think they were tied with the White Sox.  

 

 

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1 minute ago, Oblong said:

To be fair they had the best record in baseball at the ASB in 2007 and won 88 games... they had a stretch where they lost 9 of 10 in late July and early Aug.  I wouldn't call 2006 a one off.  Sure you could say that iteration got old fast but it wasn't like 2006 was a fluke.  They followed it up and fell short.

and I agree that the 2011-2014 run can look better in hindsight.  Not once in 9 playoff series, excluding the WS, did they have home field.  I distinctly remember leaving the last home game in 2012 unsure if they'd even make the playoffs with a week left, I think they were tied with the White Sox.  

 

 

Because it wasn't. Chas conveniently ignores the rest of the story to tell a narrative he thought would sound smart. 

And it's not like you have to win 3 divisions in a row to be considered " competitive". Especially now with so many playoff teams. Field an average team, hope you avoid injuries, and hire a manager that you don't think will hurt your chances. They may only be a year or two from that. 

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19 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I think they chose Gardenhire, in part, because fans would remember him as a manager that used to win with a successful Twins team that beat the Tigers.  There is nothing about McClendon that impresses fans.  I don't see him as the safe easy Avila/C. Ilitch pick.  

Agreed with this. 

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32 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Racism, maybe?

People are woke in 2020, though, so just on that measure, Lloyd has a decent shot.

So you're saying that a franchise the endured great ire from Selig's office for hiring Phil Garner without performing a minority interview and as a penance built a statue for a non hall of fame black man and subjected the fanbase to way too many years of a television broadcaster, who - what a surprise - was also a person of color, didn't make LLoyd manager because of racism?

That is a horrible take.

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Hi, Johnny! Long time, buddy!

I did say maybe, not definitely, but racism is pretty deep and insidious, and not always conscious. And we are talking about manager here, not second banana on a TV broadcast.

It's 2020 now, though, so the calculus is definitely different this time around.

 

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19 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Hi, Johnny! Long time, buddy!

I did say maybe, not definitely, but racism is pretty deep and insidious, and not always conscious. And we are talking about manager here, not second banana on a TV broadcast.

It's 2020 now, though, so the calculus is definitely different this time around.

 

Rod was literally the spokesperson for the organization for what, 15 years? Sure. Lloyd might not be the manager because racism. All the other teams not hiring him are racist as well. Prob why Stewart got sent down. 

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The gm is a person of color. I highly doubt racism will play a role in choosing a manager. 

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3 hours ago, leflore said:

The gm is a person of color. I highly doubt racism will play a role in choosing a manager. 

Not that I am in any way impugning anything to Al Avlia,  but for the sake of context I would point out that bigotry among and between non-white ethnic and racial groups is no less possible than it is between whites and other groups.

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1 hour ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Not that I am in any way impugning anything to Al Avlia,  but for the sake of context I would point out that bigotry among and between non-white ethnic and racial groups is no less possible than it is between whites and other groups.

Also not impugning Al Avila, but his presence as GM does not mean that Detroit Tigers ownership and the decision-makers in the front office, every one of whom is white with the arguable exception of Avila, do not make decisions that unfairly, even if unintentionally, disadvantage people of color, as so many highly-capitalized organizations have and still do. See: Detroit Lions v Jim Caldwell.

I'm positive it's not at the level of "Lloyd's black so he can't be manager." No one would be that forward about it anymore. But it could also be that they unconsciously discounted his strengths or magnified his weaknesses when considering him for the position previously. This is also possible, and studies and court cases have shown that does happen.

Now, personally, I don't want Lloyd to be manager because he represents an old way of baseball thinking that has been keeping this franchise at the back of the innovation line for at least a couple decades now. But as far as the Detroit Tigers are concerned, his philosophy is probably a glove fit, so I don't see any baseball reason they wouldn't hire him as the next manager. Especially true since Lloyd has much more coaching and managerial experience than Donnie Baseball does.

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29 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Also not impugning Al Avila, but his presence as GM does not mean that Detroit Tigers ownership and the decision-makers in the front office, every one of whom is white with the arguable exception of Avila, do not make decisions that unfairly, even if unintentionally, disadvantage people of color, as so many highly-capitalized organizations have and still do. See: Detroit Lions v Jim Caldwell.

I'm positive it's not at the level of "Lloyd's black so he can't be manager." No one would be that forward about it anymore. But it could also be that they unconsciously discounted his strengths or magnified his weaknesses when considering him for the position previously. This is also possible, and studies and court cases have shown that does happen.

Now, personally, I don't want Lloyd to be manager because he represents an old way of baseball thinking that has been keeping this franchise at the back of the innovation line for at least a couple decades now. But as far as the Detroit Tigers are concerned, his philosophy is probably a glove fit, so I don't see any baseball reason they wouldn't hire him as the next manager. Especially true since Lloyd has much more coaching and managerial experience than Donnie Baseball does.

You're simply claiming this to fit your narrative. You have no idea what his philosophy is, nor do you know what the org's philosophy is. All we have are general ideas. Using that to claim racism is silly. But you probably already know that. 

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5 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Not that I am in any way impugning anything to Al Avlia,  but for the sake of context I would point out that bigotry among and between non-white ethnic and racial groups is no less possible than it is between whites and other groups.

Good point, I agree

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3 hours ago, Yoda said:

You're simply claiming this to fit your narrative. You have no idea what his philosophy is, nor do you know what the org's philosophy is. All we have are general ideas. Using that to claim racism is silly. But you probably already know that. 

I'm not claiming racism. I'm speculating that racism may have been a factor. Can you see the difference? It's not that far out a notion.

And I think I do have an idea of what their philosophy is, which I believe to be decidedly more tilted toward old school scouting and less tilted toward analytics. I've been observing this team and their actions as an informed outsider very closely for decades now. It's not as though they're a black box.

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i hope the tigers hire an all black coaching staff, then, they turn out to hate analytics, love bunting, and abhor stats.  

then we can watch chas go through the mental gymnastics of calling for black coaches to be fired while not trying to think of himself as a racist for wanting it.

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11 minutes ago, Buddha said:

i hope the tigers hire an all black coaching staff, then, they turn out to hate analytics, love bunting, and abhor stats.  

then we can watch chas go through the mental gymnastics of calling for black coaches to be fired while not trying to think of himself as a racist for wanting it.

I hope you get that, too. 😁

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I'm pretty sure that I heard that the last thing Gardy said before he left town was that he did not want to be replaced before the election.

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19 minutes ago, Chili Mac Davis said:

I'm pretty sure that I heard that the last thing Gardy said before he left town was that he did not want to be replaced before the election.

Lmfao

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4 hours ago, chasfh said:

I'm not claiming racism. I'm speculating that racism may have been a factor. Can you see the difference? It's not that far out a notion.

And I think I do have an idea of what their philosophy is, which I believe to be decidedly more tilted toward old school scouting and less tilted toward analytics. I've been observing this team and their actions as an informed outsider very closely for decades now. It's not as though they're a black box.

Oh, you've been observing them? Well then you're basically upper management! Let us know when you hear who they will hire. 

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5 hours ago, Yoda said:

Oh, you've been observing them? Well then you're basically upper management! Let us know when you hear who they will hire. 

Chuck is TSE. TSE is Chuck.

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I don't think it's racism that kept Lloyd from getting the job but I wouldn't be surprised if race is a factor in him getting the job.... they'll use it as a marketing tool.  "The Detroit Tigers are proud to reflect our strong support for the African American community by introducing our first African American manager".... again, not out of any malicious thinking but simply lazy marketing on their part.   I don't think they are very smart.   They have a very "don't rock the boat" mentality.  Everyone just moves up a notch.

 

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