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3 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

Prince may have been overpaid but he was solid here as was Benoit aside from that Ortiz HR

Benoit was an excellent signing, no question

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Upton wasn't terrible either.  Horrible start but finished strong his first year.  His second year he was really solid posting 5 wins between the 5 months with us and 1 with the Angels.   Was an overpay no question(like most FAs are gonna be) but ultimately he was a good player here after the horrendous start.  

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17 minutes ago, leflore said:

Benoit was an excellent signing, no question

another human rain delay though. I just hated to see that guy come into a game. I like baseball a lot more just knowing he is retired.

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The FA signings under DD were very good overall, with only a couple of exceptions.

The FA signings under AA have been very poor through 2019, but Schoop and Cron were good signings from the get-go.  

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1 minute ago, sabretooth said:

The FA signings under DD were very good overall, with only a couple of exceptions.

The FA signings under AA have been very poor through 2019, but Schoop and Cron were good signings from the get-go.  

I’m not going to try to argue that Avila’s signings have been good. But to be fair he really only had two offseasons where free agent signings would have made sense, and the second one they were already over the tax line. But yes, pelfrey and lowe and zimmermann and Upton didn’t work out. But at least he got out of the upton deal thanks to the angels incompetence. But AA did successfully sign and flip Martin and Fiers during the tear down years. 
 

Did DD have good FA signings? Pudge and Maggs worked out. Victor’s first contract worked. His second was awful. Joe Nathan was bad. Jose valverde was bad. Prince was a very bad contract but he got out of it (after eating money to do so but whatever). Johnny Damon? Sean Casey for a second year? I’m sure I’m forgetting someone obvious. He did a lot of extending. Not sure if that counts in this discussion or not. But extension contracts to Robertson and Willis were nonsensical and Cabrera’s might be one of the worst in MLB history.

I know it’s only natural to compare past and current GMs, and I know the present state of the team makes it easy to blame Avila (and the past state makes it easy to praise DD). I just don’t think it’s as good/bad as it is being made out to be.

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The problem with the Tigers of the DD era wasn't that had too many poor free agent signings. It was that they had to sign too many free agents. Because the farm systems wasn't producing. they had to fill holes with high priced and risky mid priced free agents. 

Couple that with all of the extensions they gave out and had some big hits and big misses. 

 

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Dombrowksi whiffed on Vina, Percival, Brandon Lyon, Johnny Damon, Jose Mesa, Urbina(in his defense turned it into Polanco but still signing him to begin with was a whiff) Joe Nathan, Joba Chamberlain and Brad Penny.  Most of those may have only been 1 or 2 year contracts but aside from Zimm all of Avila's failures were only on short term deals as well.  

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Thanks for all of the enjoyable replies to my topic. Everybody has their opinion, however we all want to see our beloved Detroit Tigers winning again soon. Perhaps I was blinded by the horrific Randy Smith fiasco years as the Tigers GM.

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11 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Lyon was a whiff?

My memory isn't the best

A Whiff may be too strong but he wasn't that good.  If you look just at ERA he doesn't appear that bad but his numbers in high leverage situations, which is what you pay your set up man to be good at wasn't that good.  His shutdown to meltdown ratio wasn't great and he barely posted a positive WPA despite getting a ton of high leverage chances.   At the time they paid him way above market value for a non closer and he simply didn't provide those results.   Not a complete whiff though but wasn't a win either.  

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1 hour ago, RandyMarsh said:

A Whiff may be too strong but he wasn't that good.  If you look just at ERA he doesn't appear that bad but his numbers in high leverage situations, which is what you pay your set up man to be good at wasn't that good.  His shutdown to meltdown ratio wasn't great and he barely posted a positive WPA despite getting a ton of high leverage chances.   At the time they paid him way above market value for a non closer and he simply didn't provide those results.   Not a complete whiff though but wasn't a win either.  

True, but we did draft Castellanos with the type B supplemental pick we got after we offered Lyon arbitration and he declined. 

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Brandon Lyon was your standard mediocre reliever.  He didn't strike out a lot of batters, but didn't allow many runs either.  That might have been luck, but I wouldn't call him a whiff.  Maybe a base on balls.  

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3 hours ago, Shelton said:

I’m not going to try to argue that Avila’s signings have been good. But to be fair he really only had two offseasons where free agent signings would have made sense, and the second one they were already over the tax line. But yes, pelfrey and lowe and zimmermann and Upton didn’t work out. But at least he got out of the upton deal thanks to the angels incompetence. But AA did successfully sign and flip Martin and Fiers during the tear down years. 
 

Did DD have good FA signings? Pudge and Maggs worked out. Victor’s first contract worked. His second was awful. Joe Nathan was bad. Jose valverde was bad. Prince was a very bad contract but he got out of it (after eating money to do so but whatever). Johnny Damon? Sean Casey for a second year? I’m sure I’m forgetting someone obvious. He did a lot of extending. Not sure if that counts in this discussion or not. But extension contracts to Robertson and Willis were nonsensical and Cabrera’s might be one of the worst in MLB history.

I know it’s only natural to compare past and current GMs, and I know the present state of the team makes it easy to blame Avila (and the past state makes it easy to praise DD). I just don’t think it’s as good/bad as it is being made out to be.

Upton opted out of his contract. He didn't need the Angels to get out of it. He dumped Upton on the Angels because he was opting out. I wouldn't even say Upton didn't work out. He provided the production we expected. The team didn't work out. It's interesting how Upton was a better performer than Ordonez minus his one MVP level season and Upton didn't work out and Ordonez did. 

I wouldn't characterize Valverde as a bad contract. He lost his way at the tail but he went 49 for 49 in saves. I know there is a lecture to follow about saves, but Valverde did what was asked of him. The only mistake with Valverde may have been picking up his option after he was perfect in saves.

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17 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

Brandon Lyon was your standard mediocre reliever.  He didn't strike out a lot of batters, but didn't allow many runs either.  That might have been luck, but I wouldn't call him a whiff.  Maybe a base on balls.  

I seem to recall Lyon started the year really bad but then picked up at the end of the year.

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2 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I seem to recall Lyon started the year really bad but then picked up at the end of the year.

Yes he did, I recall him being terrible at the start which is what I remember most and why I originally said he was a whiff but after Biggs corrected me I went back and looked at the numbers and while he was better as the year went on his "clutch" stats weren't all that great.  Basically he would excel in games where we were down in the 8th inning so had little chance of winning but be so/so in games where we needed him to hold onto a tight lead.   Wasn't a whiff like I originally said though but I wouldn't say he gave us what we hoped for.  He wasn't that shutdown 8th inning guy or closer.  

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The thing I remember most about Lyon though is how excited Mario would get when him and Bobby Seay would warm up just so he could say "Seay Lyon warming up in the pen".  

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56 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Upton opted out of his contract. He didn't need the Angels to get out of it. He dumped Upton on the Angels because he was opting out. I wouldn't even say Upton didn't work out. He provided the production we expected. The team didn't work out. It's interesting how Upton was a better performer than Ordonez minus his one MVP level season and Upton didn't work out and Ordonez did. 

I wouldn't characterize Valverde as a bad contract. He lost his way at the tail but he went 49 for 49 in saves. I know there is a lecture to follow about saves, but Valverde did what was asked of him. The only mistake with Valverde may have been picking up his option after he was perfect in saves.

You can’t say “Upton was opting out.” He bluffed and the angels took the bait and gave him an even better deal than what he was going to get. He never opted out. 
 

If Upton was a lock to opt out you could have actually traded him for something real. The opt out he had was a horrible thing for any team to take on, and the tigers were lucky to get away from it. 
 

so yeah, I don’t think that contract worked out. Sorry. 

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1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

Upton opted out of his contract. He didn't need the Angels to get out of it. He dumped Upton on the Angels because he was opting out. I wouldn't even say Upton didn't work out. He provided the production we expected. The team didn't work out. It's interesting how Upton was a better performer than Ordonez minus his one MVP level season and Upton didn't work out and Ordonez did. 

I wouldn't characterize Valverde as a bad contract. He lost his way at the tail but he went 49 for 49 in saves. I know there is a lecture to follow about saves, but Valverde did what was asked of him. The only mistake with Valverde may have been picking up his option after he was perfect in saves.

the mistake with Valverde was the Tigers' weakness in pitching analytics. Anyone looking at his advanced metrics could see was living on pure luck. 

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3 minutes ago, Shelton said:

You can’t say “Upton was opting out.” He bluffed and the angels took the bait and gave him an even better deal than what he was going to get. He never opted out. 
 

If Upton was a lock to opt out you could have actually traded him for something real. The opt out he had was a horrible thing for any team to take on, and the tigers were lucky to get away from it. 
 

so yeah, I don’t think that contract worked out. Sorry. 

He literally told the Tigers he was going to opt out and they dumped him at the August waiver deadline for nothing. How could the Tigers trade him for something real if he was going to opt out after two months? That's the reason they got nothing for him. Ordonez put up 13 war in 7 seasons with 8 coming in just one season. Upton has put up 10 war in 5 seasons and would be out of his original contract in one more year had he chose to opt in which was very unlikely. 

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1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

I seem to recall Lyon started the year really bad but then picked up at the end of the year.

LOL - Lyon is a complete blank to me. But '09 was pretty much a lost season for me - spent most of it in an airplane - ugh.

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It's debatable if Al has done good or bad but for sure we will find out over the next 2 years because we should be competitive in 2022- 2023 latest or he failed.We have enough playable or tradable assets that combined with free agency should make us playoff contenders if not participants.

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38 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

LOL - Lyon is a complete blank to me. But '09 was pretty much a lost season for me - spent most of it in an airplane - ugh.

I completely forgot about him until this thread. I can still picture that chin beard thing he had going. 

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4 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

He literally told the Tigers he was going to opt out and they dumped him at the August waiver deadline for nothing. How could the Tigers trade him for something real if he was going to opt out after two months? That's the reason they got nothing for him. Ordonez put up 13 war in 7 seasons with 8 coming in just one season. Upton has put up 10 war in 5 seasons and would be out of his original contract in one more year had he chose to opt in which was very unlikely. 

That's how I recall it too. I thought it was cool that he was up front with Al. JUp was a decent Tiger. After a horrid start he practically carried the offense for a month.

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Robbie Grossman is a fa this year; he's an interesting guy to me that would make sense on a short term deal.

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