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16 Team playoffs are here to stay.........

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5 minutes ago, Shelton said:

Not so fast. The blue jays have 8 games in 7 days against the Phillies and yanks. We are only five games back. After the tigers take the next three and the jays suffer a four game sweep at the hands of the Phillies, we will only be 1.5 games back. Then after the jays lose to the yanks on Monday we will only be 1 game back after our off day. 

yes.  after we take the next three.

it will just like 1987 all over again.

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15 hours ago, tiger337 said:

It changes the playoffs, but I don't think going from 8 to 10 teams changes the season that much.  You still have basically the same types of teams batting for playoff spots.  With 16 teams you are going from mostly good teams battling for spots to mediocre teams battling for spots.  

I don’t really know how to quantify “changes the season.” But I do think that if you create a substantial incentive to finish first within a sub-group of teams loosely affiliated with each other based on geography, then you have done something to substantially change to the season, and going from 8 to 10 did that.

In summary, divisions are stupid and rewarding division winners is stupid and the 10 team setup is stupid. 

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4 minutes ago, Shelton said:

I don’t really know how to quantify “changes the season.” But I do think that if you create a substantial incentive to finish first within a sub-group of teams loosely affiliated with each other based on geography, then you have done something to substantially change to the season, and going from 8 to 10 did that.

In summary, divisions are stupid and rewarding division winners is stupid and the 10 team setup is stupid. 

I agree that small divisions are stupid.  I would rather see no divisions and balanced schedules and just take the top X teams.   I think when they expand to 32 teams, there will be even more divisions.   I didn't really see the 10-division setup as rewarding division winners so  much as punishing the fourth best team.  I don't mind that because I don't think the fourth best team in a league has anything to complain about in regards to playoff status.  I thought the one-game playoff was dumb, but until they get rid of divisions it's all stupid to me anyway.  

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2 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I agree that small divisions are stupid.  I would rather see no divisions and balanced schedules and just take the top X teams.   I think when they expand to 32 teams, there will be even more divisions.   I didn't really see the 10-division setup as rewarding division winners so  much as punishing the fourth best team.  I don't mind that because I don't think the fourth best team in a league has anything to complain about in regards to playoff status.  I thought the one-game playoff was dumb, but until they get rid of divisions it's all stupid to me anyway.  

The 4-seed doesn’t have to be “the fourth best team.” Frequently it is not. I 

I think everyone agrees that seeding and home field advantage has little effect on likelihood of advancing. Indeed, back when they did four teams per league, the fourth seeded wildcard wouldn’t play the top seeded division winner if they were in the same division. And for the most part no one seemed to care, which is the correct reaction. 
 

 

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One thing I have seen a lot of is people going back to past years to say “look at the sub-.500 teams that would have made a 16 team playoff field.” I don’t think that is a valid criticism. For one thing, I don’t see a substantial difference between a team that finished 82-80 vs a team that finished 80-82. But even granting that .500 is an important line of demarcation, if those seasons had been played with a 16 team playoff field, I think it is likely that many of those 8th place teams would have made more of an effort to improve their team in order to qualify, rather than just playing out the string with expanded rosters or making no attempt to shore up weak spots mid-season.

That said, I do think it’s likely that allowing 16 out of 30 will end up rewarding a team that finished with more losses than wins. I guess that doesn’t personally bother me. It’s still the 8th best team that season. 
 

I do think earning one of the top seeds should provide a greater benefit in the tournament. I can’t think of another tournament that would reward their best teams less than the upcoming 16 team MLB bracket.

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2 minutes ago, Shelton said:

One thing I have seen a lot of is people going back to past years to say “look at the sub-.500 teams that would have made a 16 team playoff field.” I don’t think that is a valid criticism. For one thing, I don’t see a substantial difference between a team that finished 82-80 vs a team that finished 80-82. But even granting that .500 is an important line of demarcation, if those seasons had been played with a 16 team playoff field, I think it is likely that many of those 8th place teams would have made more of an effort to improve their team in order to qualify, rather than just playing out the string with expanded rosters or making no attempt to shore up weak spots mid-season.

That said, I do think it’s likely that allowing 16 out of 30 will end up rewarding a team that finished with more losses than wins. I guess that doesn’t personally bother me. It’s still the 8th best team that season. 
 

I do think earning one of the top seeds should provide a greater benefit in the tournament. I can’t think of another tournament that would reward their best teams less than the upcoming 16 team MLB bracket.

I don't think there is any good way to set-up the post-season tournament in baseball which will significantly benefit the better teams.  You could have all the home games in one city, but that will hurt the fans in the other city even if the teams share the gate receipts.  You could require that the lower seeded team start with a disadvantage and has to win more games in the series than the higher seeded team.  I think that would be disconcerting for fans though because it's not what they have seen in any other sport.  Football has byes, but there is some question as to whether that is beneficial for top teams in baseball because baseball players are not accustomed to long layoffs. 

They could just admit that the post-season results have no real connection to regular season results and reward both equally, but that would defeat the league's purpose of having the tournament.   

 

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46 minutes ago, Shelton said:

The 4-seed doesn’t have to be “the fourth best team.” Frequently it is not. I 


 

 

Yes, they may have won more games than a team in another division and they all have different schedules anyway, so we don't really know their ranking.  However, I think if you're going to have divisions and you know you need to beat the four teams with similar schedules and you don't, then you lose and have to accept whatever you get it terms of playoff seeding.  The one-game playoff is stupid though.  

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11 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I don't think there is any good way to set-up the post-season tournament in baseball which will significantly benefit the better teams.  You could have all the home games in one city, but that will hurt the fans in the other city even if the teams share the gate receipts.  You could require that the lower seeded team start with a disadvantage and has to win more games in the series than the higher seeded team.  I think that would be disconcerting for fans though because it's not what they have seen in any other sport.  Football has byes, but there is some question as to whether that is beneficial for top teams in baseball because baseball players are not accustomed to long layoffs. 

They could just admit that the post-season results have no real connection to regular season results and reward both equally, but that would defeat the league's purpose of having the tournament.   

 

Well, then. Sounds impossible. I guess they should just give up. 

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21 minutes ago, Shelton said:

Well, then. Sounds impossible. I guess they should just give up. 

No, they will do whatever makes them the most money.   

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2 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

No, they will do whatever makes them the most money.   

Yep. Money talks the loudest.

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On 9/16/2020 at 9:14 AM, tiger337 said:

It cheapens both the regular season and the post-season.  

Generally, yes.  If traditionally there were a great amount of parity within the top halves of each league, a broader playoff would make sense.  But that doesn't seem to be the case.

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On 9/16/2020 at 1:27 PM, leflore said:

During March madness I love it when a sub .500 team knocks out a premiere team.

Gross.

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On 9/17/2020 at 3:51 PM, lordstanley said:

Here is another idea. 

154 game season ends around September 24
Top 8 teams make playoffs in each league; no divisions

21-day playoff round robin  mini-season from Sept 28-October 19
Play 7 other teams in your league 3x each, so a series vs each, just 2 off days
Work it out so that higher ranked regular season teams get more home games in the round robin (e.g., #1 plays 15 of 21 at home, #2-4 play 12 of 21 at home, #5-7 plays 9 of 21 at home, #8 plays 6 of 21 at home)

Roundrobin winner from each league competes in World Series last week of October 

So, many teams make the playoffs but the roundrobin more closely simulates the regular season.  Values full pitching rotation, bench strength, and travel over luck and a hot streak.
 

That's an interesting way to reward regular season success.

I've been of the thought that if they go to 8 teams per league (or a 16 team playoff without league boundaries as you suggested before), the bracket should be reracked after each round so that the best regular season record team remaining faces the worst regular season record team remaining.  IE, if #1 seed defeats #8 seed, #7 defeats #2, #3 defeats #6, and #4 defeats #5, the next round would be #1 vs #7 and #3 vs #4 rather that #1 vs #4 and #3 vs #7.

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On 9/17/2020 at 12:10 PM, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Neither mad nor smart.

Mad smart, yo.

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They should move the play in games to either Dayton or that field in the middle of the Iowa corn fields.

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I wouldn't be opposed to the best record in the league automatically getting a bye till the LCS.   

Have the 5 and 6 teams do a play in game, winner faces the number 2 in the Wild Card Round.  Other Wild Card Matchup would be 3 vs. 4.  This round would be best of 3.

The two winners then face in the division round which is best of 5 and that winner goes to the LCS to face the team with the best record in a best of 7.

I know some people and teams may not like having that layoff but I think if it guarantees you being in the LCS and having to essentially skip 2 rounds that teams will really put forth the effort to get that 1 seed and will be rewarded for it.  

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16 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

I wouldn't be opposed to the best record in the league automatically getting a bye till the LCS.   

Have the 5 and 6 teams do a play in game, winner faces the number 2 in the Wild Card Round.  Other Wild Card Matchup would be 3 vs. 4.  This round would be best of 3.

The two winners then face in the division round which is best of 5 and that winner goes to the LCS to face the team with the best record in a best of 7.

I know some people and teams may not like having that layoff but I think if it guarantees you being in the LCS and having to essentially skip 2 rounds that teams will really put forth the effort to get that 1 seed and will be rewarded for it.  

That's kind of interesting, too.

One sports playoff trend that has occurred lately is the adjusted brackets in NCAA conference tournaments were multiple byes are awarded to the better records.  Like the bottom of the barrel in the MAC has to win 4 or 5 games, but the top 2 only have to win a semifinal and a final.  I guess I don't know how that translates to baseball where the game is so much more day-to-day than other sports.

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47 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

I wouldn't be opposed to the best record in the league automatically getting a bye till the LCS.   

Have the 5 and 6 teams do a play in game, winner faces the number 2 in the Wild Card Round.  Other Wild Card Matchup would be 3 vs. 4.  This round would be best of 3.

The two winners then face in the division round which is best of 5 and that winner goes to the LCS to face the team with the best record in a best of 7.

I know some people and teams may not like having that layoff but I think if it guarantees you being in the LCS and having to essentially skip 2 rounds that teams will really put forth the effort to get that 1 seed and will be rewarded for it.  

Like when Daniel LaRusso got to advance straight to the final as the previous champion. 

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On 9/18/2020 at 10:33 AM, tiger337 said:

I agree that small divisions are stupid.  I would rather see no divisions and balanced schedules and just take the top X teams.   I think when they expand to 32 teams, there will be even more divisions.   I didn't really see the 10-division setup as rewarding division winners so  much as punishing the fourth best team.  I don't mind that because I don't think the fourth best team in a league has anything to complain about in regards to playoff status.  I thought the one-game playoff was dumb, but until they get rid of divisions it's all stupid to me anyway.  

The divisions serve a lot of purposes that are good for the owners, and some that are good for the fans.

Baseball doesn't want to have teams that are in 15th place and thus are obviously hopelessly out of contention (and have lost the interest of their fans) by the beginning of May.  Keeping more teams in at least theoretical contention for the postseason doesn't strike me as necessarily a bad thing.  (At least up to a point . Having 16 postseason spots is a bad thing.)

Also, having geographically-based divisions means not only having some natural rivalries, but assures more games against teams in the same time zones, and thus better TV audiences.   The owners don't want Eastern Time Zone teams having more 9 and 10 o'clock games out west, and the Pacific Zone teams don't want more games starting at 4 o'clock on the West Coast.   If they have more such games, I'm sure that would adversely affect how much broadcasters are willing to pay to show the games.

I'm generally okay with the division system.  What I really want to go away is interleague play.  And Comerica Park.

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13 minutes ago, six-hopper said:

The divisions serve a lot of purposes that are good for the owners, and some that are good for the fans.

Baseball doesn't want to have teams that are in 15th place and thus are obviously hopelessly out of contention (and have lost the interest of their fans) by the beginning of May.  Keeping more teams in at least theoretical contention for the postseason doesn't strike me as a bad thing.

Also, having geographically-based divisions means not only having some natural rivalries, but assures more games against teams in the same time zones, and thus better TV audiences.   The owners don't want Eastern Time Zone teams having more 9 and 10 o'clock games out west, and the Pacific Zone teams don't want more games starting at 4 o'clock on the West Coast.   If they have more such games, I'm sure that would adversely affect how much broadcasters are willing to pay to show the games.

I'm generally okay with the division system.  What I really want to go away is interleague play and Comerica Park.

The 15th place team having a shot because there are divisions is only an illusion.  And if there are 16 teams in the playoffs, do you really even need to create illusions that teams have a shot?

 There were no divisions for 68 years and there were still rivalries like Yankees - Red Sox, Giants - Dodgers and Cubs - Cardinals.   

The geography and time zone issues are legitimate.  They could solve that with four divisions and put all 8 pacific and mountain zone teams in the same division.  32 teams, 8 divisions, no interdivisional play.  154 game season where you play each opponent 22 times just like the old days.  Top 4 in each division make the playoffs.  Yeah, I know 16 teams is too many but at least we get rid of the stupid wildcards.  

 

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1 hour ago, tiger337 said:

The 15th place team having a shot because there are divisions is only an illusion.  And if there are 16 teams in the playoffs, do you really even need to create illusions that teams have a shot?

 There were no divisions for 68 years and there were still rivalries like Yankees - Red Sox, Giants - Dodgers and Cubs - Cardinals.   

The geography and time zone issues are legitimate.  They could solve that with four divisions and put all 8 pacific and mountain zone teams in the same division.  32 teams, 8 divisions, no interdivisional play.  154 game season where you play each opponent 22 times just like the old days.  Top 4 in each division make the playoffs.  Yeah, I know 16 teams is too many but at least we get rid of the stupid wildcards.  

 

I edited my post right after I first wrote it to add that having more teams in at least theoretical contention is not necessarily bad thing, but only up to a point -- and 16 postseason berths  is just too danm many.

Also, I agree that considering a fourth- or fifth-place team to be in contention after a significant part of the season has been played is generally an illusion or delusion.  (Although the Nationals' comeback after their horrible start last year shows that there can be an exception to that general proposition.)

And, of course, putting faith in illusions and delusions is frequently part of being a sports fan.  That is the only explanation for the fact that some people still have hope for the Detroit Lions.  

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56 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

The geography and time zone issues are legitimate.  They could solve that with four divisions and put all 8 pacific and mountain zone teams in the same division.  32 teams, 8 divisions, no interdivisional play.  154 game season where you play each opponent 22 times just like the old days.  Top 4 in each division make the playoffs.  Yeah, I know 16 teams is too many but at least we get rid of the stupid wildcards.  

 

I like the idea of realigning geographically.  There really isn’t much need for the American and National Leagues anymore, at least not as far as the alignment is concerned.  Once they bring in 2 expansion teams (it’ll happen for the cash influx), go to 4 divisions of 8 teams, take the division winners and the next 8 to 12 teams for a 12 to 16 team playoff.  Play every tea, during the regular season, a 3 game series against each out of division team (rotate home city every other year) and 12-13 games against every team within the division to get to 156-163 games.  Traditional rivalries can be kept and the newer ones that were introduced with interleague get more matchups during the season.

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2 minutes ago, Casimir said:

I like the idea of realigning geographically.  There really isn’t much need for the American and National Leagues anymore, at least not as far as the alignment is concerned.  Once they bring in 2 expansion teams (it’ll happen for the cash influx), go to 4 divisions of 8 teams, take the division winners and the next 8 to 12 teams for a 12 to 16 team playoff.  Play every tea, during the regular season, a 3 game series against each out of division team (rotate home city every other year) and 12-13 games against every team within the division to get to 156-163 games.  Traditional rivalries can be kept and the newer ones that were introduced with interleague get more matchups during the season.

It will be 8 divisions of 4 teams each.  

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