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16 Team playoffs are here to stay.........

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1 hour ago, Gehringer_2 said:

and with only seven batters, instead of an old fat slow designated hitter, you would have to have a young fast defensive whiz "designated fielder" at SS  or CF to fill the eighth  position defensively.  If no one wants to see a pitcher hit, why should they want to see a 550 OPS shortstop hit?

Sounds good to me.

"DF" would have gotten Vizquel to the HOF on the first ballot!

Right, Grayson Greiner could be the designated fielding catcher for the Tigers for example.    

The other good thing about 7 innings 7 batters besides the benefits listed above would be that batters would get the same numbers of at bats as they get with 9 innings 9 batters, so the stats wouldn't get messed up.  

 

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4 hours ago, six-hopper said:

Yes, I know they're doing it for the money.  But screwing with the game in a way that dilutes the regular season and p***** off the most dedicated fans as much as I think this will seems  pretty stupid and shortsighted.

Still, I'll watch, anyway, because I love baseball.  Enough to have played it, coached it, umpired it, studied it, and watched it for . . . well, several decades.  But 16 teams making the postseason is just too danm many

It pisses off fans over 40. Cool. They are all going to stay fans. 

Their goal is to obtain younger fans, something they're struggling with. Making baseball relevant to smaller markets by way of getting them into the playoffs will help, whether it pisses off older fans or not. 

Calling them greedy for doing this is dumb. All sports have to evolve and baseball is no different. 

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I don't know what this says because the athletic can **** off, but it seemed relevant. 

 

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26 minutes ago, Yoda said:

I don't know what this says because the athletic can **** off, but it seemed relevant. 

 

At least read this first! It sounds like how my facebook friend starts off a post when he is posting a conspiracy theory.  

Rosenthal is usually reasonable though, so I would probably read it if I could.  

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1 hour ago, Yoda said:

It pisses off fans over 40. Cool. They are all going to stay fans. 

Their goal is to obtain younger fans, something they're struggling with. Making baseball relevant to smaller markets by way of getting them into the playoffs will help, whether it pisses off older fans or not. 

Calling them greedy for doing this is dumb. All sports have to evolve and baseball is no different. 

I don't think baseball is being done in because of playoff formats or even because the game has gotten slower than it used to be. I think it is dying because not enough young people play it for fun anymore. And I don't know if there is any solution for that in a nation where housing density only goes down and families are down to 2.7 per household. You need a lot of kids in a close age group in close neighborhood proximity for baseball to be any kind of option for kids to play for fun and in most of suburban America you don't have that anymore - even if you could get the kids away from the electronic toys. I don't believe baseball will never compete with a moving spectacle sport like football or even basketball among people who have never played it. Baseball belongs to an era where there were 5 brothers at every farm house in the country and 8 houses with 4 kids each to each acre in the city and those cities had the money to maintain ballfields every half mile in every direction. None of that is coming back. Demographics is destiny and the demographics for baseball in  21st century U.S. suck.

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That's one theory. But attendance isn't going down, even with huge ticket prices. There are still a lot of fans. It's just not as fun to watch on TV. Largely because people don't have that kind of attention span. I actually think a 7-inning game could help there if they can't speed the game up in other ways. 

But to your first point, just because the playoffs aren't ruining baseball doesn't mean that a new system can't help it. 

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I think it's "dying" because there are so many alternatives from which to choose that are more appealing to young people.  Baseball has always been slow and unexciting compared to basketball and hockey.  No matter how much you juice up the ball it's always going to be a different type of game which appeals more to older age groups.  I think what ultimately could "save" baseball if it doesn't kill it is gambling and they are already headed in that direction with the connections to gambling organizations.  Today, I heard Manfred being all giddy about playoff brackets and how fans love picking winners of brackets.  I can see the gambling that will be involved there.  

Also, it's not dying.  They are making a ton of money.  They are greedy and can never make enough.  

 

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31 minutes ago, Yoda said:

That's one theory. But attendance isn't going down, even with huge ticket prices.

But how much of that just reflects that baseball fans have more money and free time because they are an old demographic?

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14 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

play a 140 game regular season and award money and trophies to all the division winners. Then have a postseason tournament with all the teams - maybe make the first two rounds best of 5 and the last 3 best of 7. Everyone is in the playoffs. They have nothing to do with the regular season. Case closed.

154 game regular season 

Two 15- team leagues, as now, but no divisions. Play the other 14 teams in your league 11 times each .

No inter-league play in regular season

Regular season has dual purpose: a) to crown the winner of the league pennants: and b) determine the playoff field for the post-season tournament that culminates in the World Series

Best regular season record in each league wins the American League and the National League pennants.  Make (keep) winning the pennant a big deal. So at the top of the standings, you have brought back exciting September pennant races to win a meaningful trophy

8 teams per league make the playoffs. So lower down in the standings you have September battles to get into the playoffs.

The 16 teams making the playoffs are then seeded by record, #1-#16, regardless of league. Playoff rounds until you are left with two teams, not necessarily from the same league, to play for the World Series. 

Fans can decide for themselves which trophy - the pennant or the World Series - they care about more. 

To compare with, say, English football, it would be like the difference between winning the Premier League or winning the FA Cup. Winning both in the same year is even better. Most fans in England would prefer winning the league but the FA Cup still means something. Conversely, the President’s Trophy of the NHL is given little weight (I wish its prestige was enhanced) and pales in significance compared to the Stanley Cup. 
 

 

 

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20 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

But maybe I am just too pedestrian and accepting of mediocrity to understand and appreciate the nuance of the discussion.

It is rather nuanced.

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9 hours ago, Yoda said:

That's one theory. But attendance isn't going down, even with huge ticket prices. There are still a lot of fans. It's just not as fun to watch on TV. Largely because people don't have that kind of attention span. I actually think a 7-inning game could help there if they can't speed the game up in other ways. 

But to your first point, just because the playoffs aren't ruining baseball doesn't mean that a new system can't help it. 

They need to offer a variation of a game for younger players.  Like NFL Redzone.  I have ALWAYS wanted to see what it took to get the rights to disseminate NFL games, record them, edit out EVERYTHING minus the actual plays from snap to snap and run the game that way for people to watch in 15-20 minutes.  Do something like that for baseball.  Real fans will HATE it, but it is not the ONLY version of the game to watch.  You can watch the regular game in real time (or possibly institute a delay for the start of broadcast which then also adds incentive to go to the game to see it live), twitter, social media and internet updates on games would not be an issue because a casual fan is not checking on all that anyway and also offer the sped up version.  

Actual game is played starting at 7:00pm.

Start the broadcast at 7:30pm.

Sped Up version is offered on "x network or streaming site" 20-30 minutes after the game is complete.  It may take longer or it may not take that long at all for a program to run through the game and clip everything minus the actual game itself.

I think that would be easier and better for NFL, but I think it could work in every sport.

Kids these days....they need that fast pace.  if they knew they could sit and watch an ENTIRE baseball game in like 30 minutes they would probably do it.

Is it a bastardization?  Not really....the entire recording of the game is available to watch still and you could always go to the game to get the "feel" of it.

I started dreaming this idea about 15 years ago when I found out the actual length of an NFL game, the action, was only like 15 minutes.  They turned 15 minutes into a 7 hour event.  Pre-pre game broadcasts etc.  I do not turn the game on until kick off anymore.  I am 100% COMPLETELY through and sick of all the talk about a game, I just want to watch the game.

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9 hours ago, tiger337 said:

I think it's "dying" because there are so many alternatives from which to choose that are more appealing to young people.  Baseball has always been slow and unexciting compared to basketball and hockey.  No matter how much you juice up the ball it's always going to be a different type of game which appeals more to older age groups.  I think what ultimately could "save" baseball if it doesn't kill it is gambling and they are already headed in that direction with the connections to gambling organizations.  Today, I heard Manfred being all giddy about playoff brackets and how fans love picking winners of brackets.  I can see the gambling that will be involved there.  

Also, it's not dying.  They are making a ton of money.  They are greedy and can never make enough.  

 

That 100%.  Baseball makes plenty.....now.  I think the fear is the future, 30-40 years from now.  Being proactive is not a bad thing.

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10 hours ago, tiger337 said:

At least read this first! It sounds like how my facebook friend starts off a post when he is posting a conspiracy theory.  

Rosenthal is usually reasonable though, so I would probably read it if I could.  

Read this!

I'm not on FB but I'll bet Rosenthal is getting paid and perhaps a massage from Manfred to ease the fans' concerns. And I've seen the pigman, Kramer was right. And the world will end in 2035 if the Tigers don't win another WS by then.

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22 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

But maybe I am just too pedestrian and accepting of mediocrity to understand and appreciate the nuance of the discussion.

You are one of the smartest people on the board.  The reason why I have been using this forum for so long is because people here are so knowledgeable and passionate about the game.  I don't know many people like that in real life and those I do know are ******* Red Sox fans.  I get frustrated on this issue because I think this is one of the biggest changes in the game during my lifetime and I get the general sense that people don't really care one way or the other.  We obsess for years over Cody Ross, but this is nothing?  I guess I just want to see a few people get mad as ****.     

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Basically Rosenthal said that Manfred was just talking.... he has no authority to do this without the players and they resisted doing this even for this year.  This has to be negotiated in the CBA.

 

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16 minutes ago, Oblong said:

Basically Rosenthal said that Manfred was just talking.... he has no authority to do this without the players and they resisted doing this even for this year.  This has to be negotiated in the CBA.

 

True. That may prevent something for 2021, but you never know. They could still come to another agreement this offseason, just like they did the day before opening day this year. I think the owners could easily argue that with revenue down so much due to the Covid season, another year expanded playoffs and the corresponding money benefits everyone. And if the players end up with a nice 2021 bonus because of it, I don’t see who it’s hurting. 
 

Goong forward, it’s something they will negotiate into the next CBA. I think the owners really want it, so it feels like one of those things they are going to get, even if it means conceding something else to the union. 
 

The biggest problem is going to be all of the hypothesizing about what certain types of teams will likely do in a 14 or 16 team playoff system. Will the Dodgers no longer want to sign mookie betts? Will the tigers be more willing to sign a Castellanos type this offseason? No one really knows, and it would probably take years of the new system to give us a good idea. We do know how teams were operating in the years leading up to Covid. We’re players happy with that? I don’t know. But that’s the baseline. Does increasing the playoff field improve their pay relative to the baseline or not? Does it improve the pay of the baseball 99% but hurt the pay of the baseball 1%? 

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33 minutes ago, Oblong said:

Basically Rosenthal said that Manfred was just talking.... he has no authority to do this without the players and they resisted doing this even for this year.  This has to be negotiated in the CBA.

 

My sense from hearing player quotes is that they are not so enthusiastic about it but can be talked into it with money.  I am pretty sure it will happen.  It will probably come down to 14 vs 16 teams.  

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1 hour ago, tiger337 said:

You are one of the smartest people on the board.  The reason why I have been using this forum for so long is because people here are so knowledgeable and passionate about the game.  I don't know many people like that in real life and those I do know are ******* Red Sox fans.  I get frustrated on this issue because I think this is one of the biggest changes in the game during my lifetime and I get the general sense that people don't really care one way or the other.  We obsess for years over Cody Ross, but this is nothing?  I guess I just want to see a few people get mad as ****.     

I'm not, and I honestly don't care about the expansion of the play-offs, FWIW.

My enjoyment of baseball will not be impacted in any meaningful way by an expansion of the playoffs.

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There are a lot of different ways to give the “best” teams or division winners an advantage even in a 16 team system, too. It’s still going to give mediocre teams a chip and chair, obviously. 
 

I am somewhat intrigued by the idea of the mini tournament of teams playing teams to earn a spot in the division series while giving the division winners an automatic spot. Basically similar to what we have now, but with more teams trying to earn that legit wild card spot instead of two teams in a one game playoff. If you have five wild cards, the 7 and 8 seed could do a one game playoff, winner playing the 4 seed in a 3 game playoff, 5 playing 6 in a 3 game playoff, and then maybe the winner of those series could then play a 1-gamer. That could be done in five days. You could even give the higher seeds a 1 game lead to get it done in fewer games or allow for the wild card championship game to be more games. That would give substantial benefit to almost every seed relative to the seed below it. And I think it would be a really fun thing to put on tv the first week of October. 

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7 hours ago, lordstanley said:

154 game regular season 

Two 15- team leagues, as now, but no divisions. Play the other 14 teams in your league 11 times each .

No inter-league play in regular season

Regular season has dual purpose: a) to crown the winner of the league pennants: and b) determine the playoff field for the post-season tournament that culminates in the World Series

Best regular season record in each league wins the American League and the National League pennants.  Make (keep) winning the pennant a big deal. So at the top of the standings, you have brought back exciting September pennant races to win a meaningful trophy

8 teams per league make the playoffs. So lower down in the standings you have September battles to get into the playoffs.

The 16 teams making the playoffs are then seeded by record, #1-#16, regardless of league. Playoff rounds until you are left with two teams, not necessarily from the same league, to play for the World Series. 

Fans can decide for themselves which trophy - the pennant or the World Series - they care about more. 

To compare with, say, English football, it would be like the difference between winning the Premier League or winning the FA Cup. Winning both in the same year is even better. Most fans in England would prefer winning the league but the FA Cup still means something. Conversely, the President’s Trophy of the NHL is given little weight (I wish its prestige was enhanced) and pales in significance compared to the Stanley Cup. 
 

 

 

and how about - just to keep it interesting for good players on bad teams - that the playoff teams each get to draft two or three players from the non-playoff teams for the playoff run. Ups the quality of play-off play and keeps the best players in front of the public.

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Come on.  I played everyday for the Yankees, had to fight off some 23 year old hot shot who they want to promote, only to lose my playing time to some guy from the Royals who gets added to the play-off roster and won't be here after?

**** him.  Who is he to us? He wants to be in the play-offs so damned bad, he can lead his team there.

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44 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I'm not, and I honestly don't care about the expansion of the play-offs, FWIW.

My enjoyment of baseball will not be impacted in any meaningful way by an expansion of the playoffs.

You're not mad or you're not one of the smartest people here or both?

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