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9/13 @2:10 Detroit Tigers at Chicago White Sox

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8 hours ago, leflore said:

Not 100% consensus. Finally built a metrics dept, signed some hi-ceiling international guys and may have had a very good draft in 2019. If you listen to other team's feeds both the White Sox and Twins announcers see positives with Detroit's process. They took a step this year. I think 75 wins isn't out of the question for 2021 and hopefully in the thick of things by 2022. That is, if Illitch shows a true willingness to add some FA talent that could stay with the team.

Fair enough....I was poking fun at the seeming "all or nothing" attitude of people on this board who either want to see playoffs or a top 1st rd pick at the end of every season. 

I would much prefer a 75 win season with some youngsters on the rise than another "dive! dive! dive!"

In short, rooting for losing sucks.

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2 hours ago, sabretooth said:

Fair enough....I was poking fun at the seeming "all or nothing" attitude of people on this board who either want to see playoffs or a top 1st rd pick at the end of every season. 

I would much prefer a 75 win season with some youngsters on the rise than another "dive! dive! dive!"

In short, rooting for losing sucks.

I definitely agree.  Rooting for losing year after year is not why I watch sports. I would much rather watch a 75 win team with a few interesting players on it than a 60 win team.   

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3 hours ago, sabretooth said:

Fair enough....I was poking fun at the seeming "all or nothing" attitude of people on this board who either want to see playoffs or a top 1st rd pick at the end of every season. 

I would much prefer a 75 win season with some youngsters on the rise than another "dive! dive! dive!"

In short, rooting for losing sucks.

I don't think anyone is saying they want to lose.  From my perspective, I don't want to try and win meaningless games by playing individuals that could get in the way of the development of our younger players.  So, if losing is a by-product of doing that, I can accept it, as I'm more interested in the long view here.

This is why I would be opposed to re-signing Schoop beyond this season--it appears to me that we will have a logjam at 3B, and I'd prefer that either Willi Castro (who looks like he can't make an accurate throw from SS) or Paredes goes to 2B.  Both look like more complete hitters than Schoop (i.e, can take a walk).

I'd rather we invest at SS via free agency--that is an organizational black hole for us currently

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What I don’t like is the seeming insistence that whenever you have a good player you need to immediately trade them for a gaggle of prospects before the good player undermines their trading capital; as if the Tigers have demonstrated an ability to identify and develop talent, an ability which most people don’t think this club has.

It’s a self-perpetuating cycle of futility. It’s a demonstration of the Freudian death wish, where logically you should be doing things that help you but instead you do things to undermine yourself because you’re more comfortable with that deficient state of affairs than the uncertainty of getting what you technically want could bring. 

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2 hours ago, tiger337 said:

I definitely agree.  Rooting for losing year after year is not why I watch sports. I would much rather watch a 75 win team with a few interesting players on it than a 60 win team.   

Exhibit A, the 1976 team, one of the most entertaining ever.

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7 minutes ago, Charles Liston said:

Exhibit A, the 1976 team, one of the most entertaining ever.

They only won 74 games, but it is probably one of my top five favorite seasons.  I wonder how much that season would be appreciated today in the all or nothing mindset of today?

There also would have been much angst about Fidrych's pitch counts and lack of strikeouts which would have been legitimate concerns but it also would have taken away from what was a magical season.  

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37 minutes ago, Charles Liston said:

Exhibit A, the 1976 team, one of the most entertaining ever.

counter-exhibit: 1974 and 1975

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Just now, Buddha said:

counter-exhibit: 1974 and 1975

Those two seasons got them Les Filkins and Pat Underwood in the draft, so it was worth it!  They did have some great drafts, but it wasn't because of being horrible in 1974 and 1975.  They were just two really bad years of un-entertaining baseball.  1976 happened because, they got Leflore from prison, Staub in a trade and Fidrych later in the draft.  

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23 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

Those two seasons got them Les Filkins and Pat Underwood in the draft, so it was worth it!  They did have some great drafts, but it wasn't because of being horrible in 1974 and 1975.  They were just two really bad years of un-entertaining baseball.  1976 happened because, they got Leflore from prison, Staub in a trade and Fidrych later in the draft.  

counter-point: the draft process is much more formal, professional, and well scouted than in the mid 1970s.

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41 minutes ago, Buddha said:

counter-exhibit: 1974 and 1975

1975 is a 57 win team, not relevant to Lee's comment at all.  1974 is a 72 win team that was infinitely more entertaining than anything the Tigers have put on the field for the last 3 years.

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1 minute ago, Buddha said:

counter-point: the draft process is much more formal, professional, and well scouted than in the mid 1970s.

Sure, but 1976 was a fun season.  The argument is that a 75 win seasons is no different from a 60 win season, so we should root for the team to be horrible.  I don't agree with that.  I want them to try to be entertaining.  That might mean they fail in a given season and get a high pick. They also might get lucky and have things break right and eke into the playoffs.  Or we get a season with Fidrych, Leflore and Staub making the all-star team.  

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2 minutes ago, Charles Liston said:

1975 is a 57 win team, not relevant to Lee's comment at all.  1974 is a 72 win team that was infinitely more entertaining than anything the Tigers have put on the field for the last 3 years.

2004 and 2005 were fun to you?

btw, i dont really care.  baseball is such that i can find fun in following the minor leagues as much as the majors.  and following top prospects in the minors is as interesting to me as watching schoop or goodrum play.

i'm just pushing back a little on the notion that 70 win teams are fun while 60 win teams are a horrible no good slog that has no enjoyment at all.  either you like baseball or you dont.  if youre only amused when the team is good (or 10 games better than 60 wins) then thats fine, but i doubt there are any of those fans here.

you and lee are just old and crotchety.  :)

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2 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

Sure, but 1976 was a fun season.  The argument is that a 75 win seasons is no different from a 60 win season, so we should root for the team to be horrible.  I don't agree with that.  I want them to try to be entertaining.  That might mean they fail in a given season and get a high pick. They also might get lucky and have things break right and eke into the playoffs.  Or we get a season with Fidrych, Leflore and Staub making the all-star team.  

a 60 win team can also be fun.  watching mize pitch is fun even if they lose.

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2004 and 2005 were not fun like 1976, but they were more fun than 2017-2019.  

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1 minute ago, Buddha said:

a 60 win team can also be fun.  watching mize pitch is fun even if they lose.

If he pitches well, it's fun.  If he pitches poorly, it will stop being fun.  If he pitches well and a couple other guys come through, then they probably aren't a 60-win team anymore.  

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If the team isn't going to compete for the playoffs than winning or losing is irrelevant to me, what i get my enjoyment out of is watching or hoping for progression from young players that could be part of your future.

 

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7 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

If he pitches well, it's fun.  If he pitches poorly, it will stop being fun.  If he pitches well and a couple other guys come through, then they probably aren't a 60-win team anymore.  

he almost pitched a no hitter against one of the best offensive teams in baseball last week and they lost the game.  it was still fun.

im fine with the ups and downs of young players growing.  what i find boring is watching players with no future play and get beat.

watching candelario this season has been fun.  i thought he was nothing but he's really come on and that was fun to see.

watching romine and nova and goodrum play has been next to useless.

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1 hour ago, Charles Liston said:

Exhibit A, the 1976 team, one of the most entertaining ever.

you picked a team that had a once-in-a-lifetime generational personality.  not fair.

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Just now, Tenacious D said:

you picked a team that had a once-in-a-lifetime generational personality.  not fair.

Totally fair!  Lol.  Plus he wasn't all of the excitement, LeFlore and Staub had plenty of highlights, LeFlore had a 30 game hitting streak and made the cover of The Sporting News.

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2 hours ago, IdahoBert said:

What I don’t like is the seeming insistence that whenever you have a good player you need to immediately trade them for a gaggle of prospects before the good player undermines their trading capital; as if the Tigers have demonstrated an ability to identify and develop talent, an ability which most people don’t think this club has.

It’s a self-perpetuating cycle of futility. It’s a demonstration of the Freudian death wish, where logically you should be doing things that help you but instead you do things to undermine yourself because you’re more comfortable with that deficient state of affairs than the uncertainty of getting what you technically want could bring. 

and it really hasn't yielded much, if anything, besides Willi Castro.  It's the desperate act of a team devoid of homegrown talent.

I don't get the appeal of trading Spencer Turnbull, for example.  At some point, we have to keep/develop our next core.  If we're worried about him imploding/getting injured, than we'll want to trade Mize, Skubal, Manning, etc.. before something bad happens to them, too.

 

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Also, even if Fidrych had a boring personality, it still would have been more fun to watch him than Zimmermann or Nova.  

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2 minutes ago, Charles Liston said:

Totally fair!  Lol.  Plus he wasn't all of the excitement, LeFlore and Staub had plenty of highlights, LeFlore had a 30 game hitting streak and made the cover of The Sporting News.

that was the team that turned me into a lifelong Tiger fan, for better or worse.

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23 minutes ago, Buddha said:

2004 and 2005 were fun to you?

btw, i dont really care.  baseball is such that i can find fun in following the minor leagues as much as the majors.  and following top prospects in the minors is as interesting to me as watching schoop or goodrum play.

i'm just pushing back a little on the notion that 70 win teams are fun while 60 win teams are a horrible no good slog that has no enjoyment at all.  either you like baseball or you dont.  if youre only amused when the team is good (or 10 games better than 60 wins) then thats fine, but i doubt there are any of those fans here.

you and lee are just old and crotchety.  :)

Agreed, I don’t see how a 75 win team is more interesting or fun to watch than a 65 win team. That’s basically once every two weeks that the team loses a game instead of winning. 
 

For this season, it’s been interesting to see  some of the bullpen guys emerge. The kid pitchers have had their moments, both good and bad, but their performance is worth following. Watching Jeimer and Reyes become productive players is fun. Those players could still end up winning you something in the 60s because of the other pieces involved. 

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1 minute ago, Tenacious D said:

that was the team that turned me into a lifelong Tiger fan, for better or worse.

Yes I enjoyed them immensely.

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Jeimer Candelario(big bright spot this year) won AL player of the week.

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