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8/14 @7:10 Cleveland Baseball Team vs Detroit Tigers

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Nobody I'd rather have on the mound to stop the streak than Nova.   You know at first I was just saying that in tongue and cheek but with the way Boyd has looked and with the duo of Fulmer/Norris still getting up to speed outside of Turnbull Nova may be our best option....atleast among the players on the big league roster.  

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Al Avila said Casey Mize needs more time. 

Where is he going to get that time?   Our starting pitching is awful.  If we had even AVERAGE starting pitching, we're probably 11-5 or even 12-4 right now.   Even if he isn't great, he's got to be better than Boyd, Garcia, Nova and the 3 inning wonders Fulmer and Norris.   

 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Al Avila said Casey Mize needs more time. 

Where is he going to get that time?   Our starting pitching is awful.  If we had even AVERAGE starting pitching, we're probably 11-5 or even 12-4 right now.   Even if he isn't great, he's got to be better than Boyd, Garcia, Nova and the 3 inning wonders Fulmer and Norris.   

 

 

 

 

I think it's clear that Avila simply doesn't believe in this current team to actually be playoff contenders.  If he did there is no reason why Mize shouldn't be up.   

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10 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

I think it's clear that Avila simply doesn't believe in this current team to actually be playoff contenders.  If he did there is no reason why Mize shouldn't be up.   

They are trying to avoid arbitration for an extra year.   I believe by that point they have a very small payroll and if you lose a lot to him in Arbitration it means he's really good.     To me - the **** with going for the top draft pick,  try to make a playoff, this area is BEGGING for a sports team to cheer for.    Who cares about 2024?     This is weak.   Sell the team, Chris.   

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Yeah I know the reason why they are keeping him down but if he truly felt they had a legit chance at the playoffs he would sacrifice that.   I think in his mind that this start is smoke and mirrors and they are going to fade so why waste service time on Mize?  

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Tiger have reinstated Maybin and sent Demerritte down.  Got to be honest, I actually forgot about Maybin.  Hopefully he can help provide a little extra offense that is being lost with Cron out.  

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7 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Tiger have reinstated Maybin and sent Demerritte down.  Got to be honest, I actually forgot about Maybin.  Hopefully he can help provide a little extra offense that is being lost with Cron out.  

would much rather give ABs to Stokes, Demeritte or even Hill. or Cameron.

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22 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

I actually think that if Willi Castro struggles, they should get Tork up here.  WHY NOT?  Already paying him millions. 

that's not how it works--he was paid a bonus, it's not his salary.  I don't even think he'd on the 40 man.

Paredes gets the call prior to the Tork, anyways.

 

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Maybe the Tigers think Mize needs more development and that is better accomplished where he is at independent of the fact he might, in fact, be better than other pitchers presently in the rotation.

I also do not think it is a foregone conclusion Casey presently is significantly better than the guy he'd be replacing.  There are plenty of examples of top prospects that were no great shakes their first year or two in the league. 

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1 minute ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Maybe the Tigers think Mize needs more development and that is better accomplished where he is at independent of the fact he might, in fact, better than other pitchers presently in the rotation.

This as well.  As good as Mize is it's not like he has completely overpowered everybody he has faced and looks like a finished product.  I always think back to Strasburg when he was in the minors and Washington manipulated his time cause they thought he needed to work on his pick off move, now Strasburg was completely ready at that point and that was just a B.S. excuse but Mize isn't to that point yet.

Avila may not want him to come up when he's not completely ready and look like crap.  We all like to think that stuff like that shouldn't have any impact on their development and perhaps it doesn't but why risk it for marginal gains?  Even if they make the "playoffs", I put that in quotes, it's not like it's the true playoffs, it's one game where no matter who the Tigers play they will be at an extreme disadvantage cause unlike other teams they don't have a go to pitcher.   IDK to me I'm on the fence about it, I really don't care either way but as of now I don't blame Avila for being cautious.  

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7 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Maybe the Tigers think Mize needs more development and that is better accomplished where he is at independent of the fact he might, in fact, better than other pitchers presently in the rotation.

This is no place for logical thoughts. 

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I should add I both don't know what I am talking about in general (as it pertains to developing MLB players) and have not watched Mize specifically.

I just suspect there are things that are better worked on in training sessions and there are things that can only be learned in live game action.  I don't know that, but I can easily imagine it being the case based on my personal experiences developing youth athletes, which bear zero resemblance to MLB athletes.

However, if what I suspect is true, maybe training is a good option based on where Casey is at on his development curve.  I have no clue, though.  Just throwing out the possibility.

I'd be curious to get Mark's take on it.  I think Sydney Fife played some minor league ball as well.

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2 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I should add I don't know what I am talking about in general and have not watched Mize specifically.

I just suspect there are things that are better worked on in training sessions and there are things that can only be learned in live game action.  I don't know that, but I can easily imagine it being the case based on my personal experiences, which bear no resemblance to MLB.

If what I suspect is true, maybe training is a good option based on where Casey is at on his development curve.  I have no clue, though.

I'd be curious to get Mark's take on it.  I think Sydney Fife played some minor league ball as well.

Theoretically it seems like it would be tougher to really work on things when in the majors vs. minors or in this case intrasquad games.  I would think that Casey would rely heavily on his FB and Splitter if he were called and would be reluctant to throw his weaker pitches which would obviously hurt the development of them.   OF course this is all speculation but stuff that Avila has to keep in mind.  In the worst case scenario if he calls Mize up and the Tigers go on a 10 game losing streak and not only do we lose a year of service time but also set Mize back in his progression then Avila and the organization are going to look terrible.   

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Very broadly, I would guess pitch refinement / command / mechanical repetition is better worked on in training sessions.  There is a lot of different aspects to pitching that can or could fall into this category.

Managing your game inside of the stressed environment inherent in trying to win a MLB game is something you need a live game to do well.  Stuff like pitching sequencing strategies given the batter, game situation, what is working for you that day and your fatigue level is something I suspect you kinda need a game for.

Again, love to hear someone's thoughts on it who did it professionally.

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On the subject of Tigers pitching, somebody asked Keith Law how badly he botched the whole Boyd thing and he said that he didn't blame him for not foreseeing that Boyd would turn into a pumpkin.  Said nothing wrong with playing hardball when having a then desirable pitcher.   Considering he didn't blast the Tigers I'm guessing he forgot who Boyd played for and what team Avila was GM of.  

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5 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

On the subject of Tigers pitching, somebody asked Keith Law how badly he botched the whole Boyd thing and he said that he didn't blame him for not foreseeing that Boyd would turn into a pumpkin.  Said nothing wrong with playing hardball when having a then desirable pitcher.   Considering he didn't blast the Tigers I'm guessing he forgot who Boyd played for and what team Avila was GM of.  

I wonder if Boyd hasn't gotten too HR shy. If you are going to be a K pitcher and part of that is using the high FB, you have to accept that with the rabbit ball you are going to give up HRs. So just be sure you keep your WHIP down so most of them are solo. Boyd looks to me like he is trying to be too fine. Just let it rip and if they tag a few that's the breaks. You can average a couple of HR everytime out and still be a useful pitcher if that is most of what you give up.

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3 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I wonder if Boyd hasn't gotten too HR shy. If you are going to be a K pitcher and part of that is using the high FB, you have to accept that with the rabbit ball you are going to give up HRs. So just be sure you keep your WHIP down so most of them are solo. Boyd looks to me like he is trying to be too fine. Just let it rip and if they tag a few that's the breaks. You can average a couple of HR everytime out and still be a useful pitcher if that is most of what you give up.

Looking at statcast his velo and spin numbers are basically identical to last year on his FB but he is getting far fewer Whiffs.  Also his average launch angle is way up, so between the launch angle being up and fewer whiffs that leads me to believe that he is missing with his location low.   

The scary thing is that his expected wOBA on his pitches are actually higher than what has happened so in theory he has actually been lucky and should be getting hit even harder than he has.  

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2 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Looking at statcast his velo and spin numbers are basically identical to last year

averages can be deceptive. If you look at his fangraphs FB velo game bar charts, he was getting more at the top end when he wanted it late in 2018 and early in 2019 and it's that extra when he needs it that I think is missing. Then again maybe  at 30 it's just gone forever already. You have your Justin Verlanders, and then you have your Jordan Zimmermanns. 

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I'm guessing this means that we miss them this weekend.  Not sure if they were scheduled to pitch anyway but I know that Plesac gave us fits last year and Clevinger is great so either way this is a good thing.  

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Just now, Gehringer_2 said:

averages can be deceptive. If you look at his fangraphs FB velo game bar charts, he was getting more at the top end when he wanted it late in 2018 and early in 2019 and it's that extra when he needs it that I think is missing. Then again maybe  at 30 it's just gone forever already. You have your Justin Verlanders, and then you have your Jordan Zimmermanns. 

True.  I remember reading a fluff piece on him earlier this spring/summer about how he was working with the guys at driveline and how he added velo to his top end.   Granted maybe he was just letting it fly more there but not only has his top end not gone up this season it has completely dropped.  

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From what I can tell these instructional sessions are shorter than we might think and highly focused so I doubt the pitchers are getting stretched out in a manner that builds up arm strength. I guess there’s intrasquad action but this still puts our top pitching prospects behind in their projected development.

So this whole thing of fretting over arbitration and service time is like penny-pinching money you’ll never make over a future that may never happen. This season is a stupid waste anyway so they might as well bring some of these top arms up to get them some real action. They won’t be facing a solid wall of Mike Trouts anyway. 

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2 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

I think it's clear that Avila simply doesn't believe in this current team to actually be playoff contenders.  If he did there is no reason why Mize shouldn't be up.   

There's no question Mize would be up if this were 2006-2014 and DD were in charge. 

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