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Why The Tigers Should Try A Radical Approach With Their Pitching Staff In 2020

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4 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

Sure, but what if they discover that it's easier to find three guys that can reliability pitch 2-3 innings than a 4th or 5th starter who can go 6+?  It might be unrealistic with a 10 or 11 man staff, but could would work with the 12 or 13 man staffs of today. 

The key is adequate rest and recovery after going to a state of "muscle failure". As long as you can maintain that discipline...

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Surely you don't need as much rest after throwing 60 pitches at Max effort vs 120.   Also don't starters throw bullpen sessions on the third day after starting?  Obviously they don't go max effort then but surely they would just scrap that if you truly needed 5 days recovery time. 

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5 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Surely you don't need as much rest after throwing 60 pitches at Max effort vs 120.   Also don't starters throw bullpen sessions on the third day after starting?  Obviously they don't go max effort then but surely they would just scrap that if you truly needed 5 days recovery time. 

Rest and recovery does not come into play so much until you fatigue the muscle. You can run fast every day, but if you run to muscle failure, and continue to run without the muscle having time to regenerate, there is added stress on tendons and ligaments that lead to eventual injury. The miracle with muscles is, when you break a muscle down, you don't make that muscle stronger, but your body generates a new muscle, which takes time, approximately 4-5 days.

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1 minute ago, Longgone said:

Rest and recovery does not come into play so much until you fatigue the muscle. You can run fast every day, but if you run to muscle failure, and continue to run without the muscle having time to regenerate, there is added stress on tendons and ligaments that lead to eventual injury. The miracle with muscles is, when you break a muscle down, you don't make that muscle stronger, but your body generates a new muscle, which takes time, approximately 4-5 days.

Yes but if you only throw 60-80 pitches vs 120 are you really running them to failure?   

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4 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Yes but if you only throw 60-80 pitches vs 120 are you really running them to failure?   

That's the tricky part. If you're conditioned for 120, and just do it once, likely not. But if you do it repeatedly with only a couple of days rest in between?

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49 minutes ago, Longgone said:

The key is adequate rest and recovery after going to a state of "muscle failure". As long as you can maintain that discipline...

If you have someone who is reliable, I agree it's good to keep him on a regular schedule.  However, if you only have 2 or 3 or 4 reliable starters six inning starters, it makes sense to experiment with the bottom of the rotation and maybe get better results.   

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2 hours ago, tiger337 said:

Sure, but what if they discover that it's easier to find three guys that can reliability pitch 2-3 innings than a 4th or 5th starter who can go 6+?  It might be unrealistic with a 10 or 11 man staff, but could would work with the 12 or 13 man staffs of today. 

One thing I wish would happen is to find a way to get RPs to go more than an inning at a time.

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Just pitch starters as starters.  They get 12 turns.   If someone is failing after 5 turns give the kids a shot.   

Tigers Blue Team beat the White Team today.   I don't know what Brad Ausmus is doing now, but he should be fired.  

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Am I the only one who can see how bad the White Team is?  Everyone else seems to have their head in the sand.

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6 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

White is pretty ****ing terrible.

I know, right?  And yet Avila just trots their sorry asses out there day after day, and says "they are working on things", and totally ignores the bad juju that Gardy brings to the whole operation.  I know, the rest of you think that it's too early to be concerned about how bad the White Team is, but you mark my words, if they don't start winning some games and I mean right now, then about 20 guys are going to disappear from that 60 man, overnight.  

 

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10 hours ago, Casimir said:

One thing I wish would happen is to find a way to get RPs to go more than an inning at a time.

You mean like Goose Gossage? Or more recently Andrew Miller? I agree with the thrust of this thread - I think teams are rethinking being so regimented about how to use the staff. Just steal Tampa's leadership folks. Seriously, kidnap them. Pay them well. Give them an island, and let them run the franchise remotely

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11 hours ago, Casimir said:

One thing I wish would happen is to find a way to get RPs to go more than an inning at a time.

I think the problem is that the teams have data showing RP results going down after they get up a 2nd time. Now there could well be a lot of chicken/egg in that situation - maybe guys don't do well because because they never do it and the situation is unfamiliar etc..

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I would think RPs could train to go longer. I like the trend of using closers in non-closing situations. Use your best BP arms more during crucial points in the game, not just the 9th

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3 hours ago, leflore said:

I would think RPs could train to go longer. I like the trend of using closers in non-closing situations. Use your best BP arms more during crucial points in the game, not just the 9th

It may not even really be getting up and down as much as that if a guy comes out of the pen going 110%, I can believe that after 20 pitches his is already down a few % and 5% off spin or velo is all it may take for him not to be as effective, especially since the typical modern reliever doesn't have a third pitch. Given that relievers seem to be hurt just as often as starters on far fewer IP, there is an argument they are going harder when they are out there.

I do think the speciality of working the 9th is overdone, it makes no sense not to use your most effective stopper when runs are on the line. That is not to say that the extra mental pressure of working the 9th is not real, but I think baseball has largely manufactured it - it's sort of a group delusion shared across the game which is in effect a self-fulfilling prophecy. If anything the 9th was arguably harder in the pre-Closer/4 starter era when BPs were smaller and teams had more pinch hitters on the bench.

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Here's a reliever who could throw multiple innings:

 

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Was hoping that video would keep going. Senior Smoke was a good one for the Tigers when he wasn't suffering from gout. RIP

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The main problem I see with limiting a starting pitchers innings is their body may adjust to only throwing 50 to 75 pitches. Sure, that's about all I wanna see from some of these guys but why limit the young pitchers and stunt their endurance? Think of quality pitchers, would you have wanted a manager to limit JV to 3-5 innings per start? And then when you need/want him to go 8 innings, or 120 pitches, you're putting a strain on his arm and putting him at risk of injury. Future stud pitchers should work their endurance up to 100 to 120 pitches per game. But Zimmermann and Nova? Sure, limit them. They're contracts are up after this season anyway. And they've already reached their peak and are on the way down anyway. I would cut those 2 guys and give the innings to the younger guys with potential. 

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On 7/9/2020 at 4:10 AM, leflore said:

I would think RPs could train to go longer. I like the trend of using closers in non-closing situations. Use your best BP arms more during crucial points in the game, not just the 9th

This is why I think the most important stat of a RP is inherited runs scored. It's mostly overlooked but many times it decides a game.

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On 7/9/2020 at 12:53 AM, leflore said:

You mean like Goose Gossage? Or more recently Andrew Miller? I agree with the thrust of this thread - I think teams are rethinking being so regimented about how to use the staff. Just steal Tampa's leadership folks. Seriously, kidnap them. Pay them well. Give them an island, and let them run the franchise remotely

Yes.

On 7/9/2020 at 1:13 AM, Gehringer_2 said:

I think the problem is that the teams have data showing RP results going down after they get up a 2nd time. Now there could well be a lot of chicken/egg in that situation - maybe guys don't do well because because they never do it and the situation is unfamiliar etc..

I suspect there is some chicken/egg as you suggest.  Now, I do understand not wanting a reliever to go through a lineup more than once.  A reliever usually becomes a reliever in part due to having too few pitches.  But in terms of stamina, and season long usage, would it be more efficient to use a RP for two innings rather than two for an inning each?  You roll up the pitches in the bullpen prior to entering the game and the post game recovery stuff into the equation,... it'd be interesting to know that.

On 7/9/2020 at 4:10 AM, leflore said:

I would think RPs could train to go longer. I like the trend of using closers in non-closing situations. Use your best BP arms more during crucial points in the game, not just the 9th

Yes.  Because if you can't keep the lead in the 7th, saving the closer for the 9th ain't gonna do a whole lot of good.

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50 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

The main problem I see with limiting a starting pitchers innings is their body may adjust to only throwing 50 to 75 pitches. Sure, that's about all I wanna see from some of these guys but why limit the young pitchers and stunt their endurance? Think of quality pitchers, would you have wanted a manager to limit JV to 3-5 innings per start? And then when you need/want him to go 8 innings, or 120 pitches, you're putting a strain on his arm and putting him at risk of injury. Future stud pitchers should work their endurance up to 100 to 120 pitches per game. But Zimmermann and Nova? Sure, limit them. They're contracts are up after this season anyway. And they've already reached their peak and are on the way down anyway. I would cut those 2 guys and give the innings to the younger guys with potential. 

Agree completely.  I want to see all the young pitchers with potential being stretched out as much as possible.  If as they make it to the majors it becomes evident they aren't likely to become a guy you'd regularly want going 6 IP, then back them off to that role.  I just think it would likely be easier to back off rather than trying to extend someone after years of conditioning.

He's probably too injured otherwise for it to have made a difference, but I was a bit concerned with the Astros minor league philosophy in developing Perez as if I remember correctly he was limited to 4-5 Innings in their system.  It was weird to me that they would do that with their higher end prospects when you see them ride the studs at the ML level to great success.  It seems like you'd at least want to try and develop that with the higher end prospects.

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13 minutes ago, 4hzglory said:

I was a bit concerned with the Astros minor league philosophy in developing Perez as if I remember correctly he was limited to 4-5 Innings in their system.  It was weird to me that they would do that with their higher end prospects when you see them ride the studs at the ML level to great success.  It seems like you'd at least want to try and develop that with the higher end prospects.

When are you talking about? Perez was still a teen when he went into the Houston system. There is a school of opinion that pitchers shouldn't work too much until they are old enough that growth plates have well hardened etc.

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I get that, but I thought he could have been stretched more than 4 innings at 19 in AA.  If he were in college he would be going 6-7.  

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Looking at his 2017 season, at 19 he pitched in 19 games and pitched 86.2 innings. (4.5 IP/game)  From what I remember, Houston was splitting games between 2 starters so he never went more than 5 innings.  I just think if you are trying to develop someone who has stud potential, you would stretch them out a bit at 19 to 6-7 innings or if they have a low pitch count, let them go a bit farther.  Otherwise I think it's extremely difficult to stretch them out at 22 when their body is used to going 4-5 innings.

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