06-08-12--DETROIT VS CINCINNATI--7:10 PM

**Greenwit** · 06-08-2012, 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by Biff Mayhem

I'm quite certain that DD was ordered to sign Fielder. I think the criticism should fall squarely on Mr. I's shoulders.

Yup. No proof but thats my wager too. Mr. I's directive for obvious reasons. He even admitted himself that someone else would have deal with a bad contract down the road. Now we have ugly fielding at the corners and dd knew a number of our guys had career years last year. The hitting projections were not realistic.

**Gehringer_2** · 06-08-2012, 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by tigers84roar06

Obviously a disappointing loss, but unlike most of you, I saw positives in tonight, and in fact thought this was one of the best played games the Tigers have had in a few weeks, and yes this includes the few games they won. The defense looked much better overall, ..

OK - Santiago and Miggy looked good, but Prince was still a pylon who couldn't make a good throw with the game on the line, the right fielder put the winning run at 3rd on what should have been a double, and the 1st run was set up by a throwing error. That is still a poor defensive GAME effort.

Major league quality D doesn't mean 1/2 of your players making the plays they are supposed to.

**will the thrill** · 06-08-2012, 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by Greenwit

Yup. No proof but thats my wager too. Mr. I's directive for obvious reasons. He even admitted himself that someone else would have deal with a bad contract down the road. Now we have ugly fielding at the corners and dd knew a number of our guys had career years last year. The hitting projections were not realistic.

The projections might not have been realistic, but Raburn hitting under .170 and Boesch struggling like he has weren't expected either. The other guys aren't hitting as far off as it may seem. Avilia has a pretty big drop in ops (.895/.766) but Peralta is pretty close (.824/.743)

People just forget how good this team was after the break last year with a .657 winning percentage 46-24 to finish out the season. Project this year out to 92 games and they're 42-50, the same 42-24 finish and they end up with 88 wins and a legit shot at the division. I'm not saying it's going to happen, but they proved it can last year, why act like whiny fans and complain about them everyday when we have a lot of baseball left to play.

**pyrotigers** · 06-08-2012, 11:46 PM

Fielder isn't even the worst defender on the team and he's actually hitting. It continues to boggle my mind that he seems to take more blame than anyone for the team being bad.

I don't even know how you can really blame the fielding tonight, Porcello is bad, Ortega is bad, Coke did well but the offense couldn't win the game in time. I'm not even sure why the last play was such poor defense, the worst defensive play of the game was Rick Porcello falling on his face and not getting an easy out at home in the first inning.

**tigers84roar06** · 06-08-2012, 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by pyrotigers

Fielder isn't even the worst defender on the team and he's actually hitting. It continues to boggle my mind that he seems to take more blame than anyone for the team being bad.

I don't even know how you can really blame the fielding tonight, Porcello is bad, Ortega is bad, Coke did well but the offense couldn't win the game in time. I'm not even sure why the last play was such poor defense, the worst defensive play of the game was Rick Porcello falling on his face and not getting an easy out at home in the first inning.

Yeah the way I hear some people talk about Prince youd think he was performing ala Adam Dunn 2011. Hes not...hes doing what he came to Detroit to do...play every day and hit .300+. Cabrera is also doing his part. And even Verlander...hes not invincible, so he had a few bad (and I mean bad by JV standards, not bad as in bad) starts.....our 3 biggest stars are doing what they are supposed to do. Everyone else needs to step the hell up!

**JackT** · 06-08-2012, 11:56 PM

Inge has really turned it around in Oakland. Good for him. Not a monster average, but getting a ton of RBI and clutch hits.

**will the thrill** · 06-08-2012, 11:59 PM

Brandon's been pretty lucky to have 16 hits and 22 rbi. He hasn't really turned it around, just has less expectations. If he was here and hitting .216 we'd all still think he sucked

**john doe** · 06-09-2012, 12:08 AM

Twins now only 2 behind the Tigers in the lost column. The race for the Central Cellar is tightening up.

**pyrotigers** · 06-09-2012, 12:25 AM

Let's talk about a player who is actually bad: Rick Porcello. Zero stuff tonight, he looked like a 40 year old junkballer giving it one last go in the majors. 2 walks and his only strikeout was a pitcher looking on a pitch that was probably a ball. Garbage. Maybe it's not too late to send him to the minors and let him learn how to throw an offspeed pitch that isn't bp.

**brad22784** · 06-09-2012, 12:34 AM

What the hell was Leyland thinking pulling Below for Ortega?

**sabretooth** · 06-09-2012, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by pyrotigers

I'm not even sure why the last play was such poor defense, the worst defensive play of the game was Rick Porcello falling on his face and not getting an easy out at home in the first inning.

The Fielder play was worse because he was playing in, anticipating the squeeze, and still couldn't muster a timely play. Porcello fielded a ball on a full swing and had no chance to get the guy at home.

**pyrotigers** · 06-09-2012, 02:04 AM

Originally Posted by sabretooth

The Fielder play was worse because he was playing in, anticipating the squeeze, and still couldn't muster a timely play. Porcello fielded a ball on a full swing and had no chance to get the guy at home.

The guy was a dead duck at home if Porcello made a decent throw, although Laird didn't help by completely failing to block the plate.

Fielder was playing in but I don't think many MLB first basemen would have gotten the out on that play. All the same, Porcello pitched like total garbage, so for once it's hard for me to find outrage over poor defense letting down a pitcher. I'm sure tomorrow things will be back to normal.

**PuNk42AE** · 06-09-2012, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by PuNk42AE

Wellllll, hopefully I can wake up in 5 hours to a Tigers win

Well crap! At least they showed the comeback fight and able to shut down the Reds over much of the rest of the game.

**sabretooth** · 06-09-2012, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by pyrotigers

The guy was a dead duck at home if Porcello made a decent throw, although Laird didn't help by completely failing to block the plate.

Fielder was playing in but I don't think many MLB first basemen would have gotten the out on that play. All the same, Porcello pitched like total garbage, so for once it's hard for me to find outrage over poor defense letting down a pitcher. I'm sure tomorrow things will be back to normal.

Well I disagree with your assessment of the two plays but of course I agree that Porcello pitched like crap. I believe we've seen about all we're ever going to see with Porcello at this point. Mediocre fastball and a lot of sub-par off-speed pitches.

**Biff Mayhem** · 06-09-2012, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by JackT

Inge has really turned it around in Oakland. Good for him. Not a monster average, but getting a ton of RBI and clutch hits.

I just figured it out. You're Bill Simonson.

**Greenwit** · 06-09-2012, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by pyrotigers

Fielder isn't even the worst defender on the team and he's actually hitting. It continues to boggle my mind that he seems to take more blame than anyone for the team being bad.

I don't even know how you can really blame the fielding tonight, Porcello is bad, Ortega is bad, Coke did well but the offense couldn't win the game in time. I'm not even sure why the last play was such poor defense, the worst defensive play of the game was Rick Porcello falling on his face and not getting an easy out at home in the first inning.

Fielder leads the majors in errors at 1b and is near dead last in fpct. and we'll not even talk about range. He's a horrible defensive 1b man. Just as he was last year. Miggy at the other corner is quite bad. He was bad last year at first, he's bad at third and we've replaced him with an inept defensive 1bman. Thats the problem....the two of them at the corners.

**Sven Draconian** · 06-09-2012, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by Greenwit

Fielder leads the majors in errors at 1b and is near dead last in fpct. and we'll not even talk about range. He's a horrible defensive 1b man. Just as he was last year. Miggy at the other corner is quite bad. He was bad last year at first, he's bad at third and we've replaced him with an inept defensive 1bman. Thats the problem....the two of them at the corners.

It's really not.

Not disagreeing that those two are bad. Cabby is probably a "weak" defender, but Prince is flat out awful.

However, I do not think that the corner IF giving up some singles is the biggest issue. I think Brennan Boesch (and lately, Quintin Berry) turning outs into doubles is the real defensive issues. That's even beyond when Delmon is in the field (admittedly rare).

**Vonlenska** · 06-09-2012, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

It's really not.

Not disagreeing that those two are bad. Cabby is probably a "weak" defender, but Prince is flat out awful.

However, I do not think that the corner IF giving up some singles is the biggest issue. I think Brennan Boesch (and lately, Quintin Berry) turning outs into doubles is the real defensive issues. That's even beyond when Delmon is in the field (admittedly rare).

No, it is. Several saber stats, if you give them credence, point to Miggy as being far and away the worst defensive 3B in MLB. Prince on the other hand, while bad, has a few people worse than him.

Cabrera's defense at 3B is bad, but it's not catastrophically bad. If the Tigers had a good SS or, really, more than one good defender, you could live with it. On RngR alone, Aramis Ramirez, Mark Reynolds and Chipper Jones were worse at 3B than Miggy is this year. The problem is they just can't turn ground balls into outs at a consistent pace, and that's on everyone.

**kdog** · 06-09-2012, 11:39 AM

They could live with the corner defenders if the elite defense up the middle. I would guess that holds for the outfield too.

**Eric Cioe** · 06-09-2012, 12:08 PM

Corner infielders just don't get enough balls hit to them to worry too much about the defense. And if they miss, it's a single 90% of the time. Middle infielders get tons of balls hit to them so you worry about the defense with them. Outfielders depend on the pitcher on the mound but their mistakes turn into doubles or worse so you have to have guys there that can catch the baseball.

**Truth** · 06-09-2012, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Eric Cioe

Corner infielders just don't get enough balls hit to them to worry too much about the defense. And if they miss, it's a single 90% of the time. Middle infielders get tons of balls hit to them so you worry about the defense with them. Outfielders depend on the pitcher on the mound but their mistakes turn into doubles or worse so you have to have guys there that can catch the baseball.

Generally I agree but Fielder's issues aren't just range. He's dropped simple throws, failed to save poor but catchable throws, missed double plays with his inability to get the ball out of his glove or step out to get a throwing angle, etc.

**Eric Cioe** · 06-09-2012, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Truth

Generally I agree but Fielder's issues aren't just range. He's dropped simple throws, failed to save poor but catchable throws, missed double plays with his inability to get the ball out of his glove or step out to get a throwing angle, etc.

I agree with all of this and should have mentioned it. Cabrera's poor range worked there because he was good at all the stuff you just mentioned.

**Vonlenska** · 06-09-2012, 12:52 PM

if Cabrera was a few inches shorter and 45 lbs lighter he'd be one of the best 3B in MLB.

**T&P_Fan** · 06-09-2012, 01:08 PM

Last right cemented how bad of a manager Leyland is. I watched the game when I got home at 11. As soon as Ortego came in I looked and my roommate and said game over. And of course Ortego blows it. I am so sick of Jim Leyland. Just let him go.

**Greenwit** · 06-09-2012, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by Vonlenska

No, it is. Several saber stats, if you give them credence, point to Miggy as being far and away the worst defensive 3B in MLB. Prince on the other hand, while bad, has a few people worse than him.

Cabrera's defense at 3B is bad, but it's not catastrophically bad. If the Tigers had a good SS or, really, more than one good defender, you could live with it. On RngR alone, Aramis Ramirez, Mark Reynolds and Chipper Jones were worse at 3B than Miggy is this year. The problem is they just can't turn ground balls into outs at a consistent pace, and that's on everyone.

Right I stated the corners were the problem but should have started with the premise that we have no second baseman and a serviceable SS. So the GM/Illitch are hanging their hat on a kick ***** offense which I think ignored some realities about last year (career years).

**Gehringer_2** · 06-09-2012, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Vonlenska

No, it is. Several saber stats, if you give them credence, point to Miggy as being far and away the worst defensive 3B in MLB. Prince on the other hand, while bad, has a few people worse than him.

.

1b is hard to capture even with the stats available. DPs not started, outs taken at 1st instead of going home because of a weak arm, pickoffs not handled or completed, and throws from the the other IF not handled or tags not made to save poor throws. None of that goes into range or error stats.

DPs not started is huge. Miggy was quite good at starting the 3-6-1(3). I've seen Prince pass the opportunity and just take it to 1st several times already this year.

**Vonlenska** · 06-09-2012, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by Gehringer_2

DPs not started is huge. Miggy was quite good at starting the 3-6-1(3). I've seen Prince pass the opportunity and just take it to 1st several times already this year.

Yeah, that's baffling. I've seen him do it more than a handful of times when he would have assuredly had the runner at 2B. I wonder if the org told him not to chance it? lol

**tiger337** · 06-09-2012, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Eric Cioe

Corner infielders just don't get enough balls hit to them to worry too much about the defense. And if they miss, it's a single 90% of the time. Middle infielders get tons of balls hit to them so you worry about the defense with them. Outfielders depend on the pitcher on the mound but their mistakes turn into doubles or worse so you have to have guys there that can catch the baseball.

I would argue that there is about as much difference in runs saved between the best and worst 3B as between the best SS. No team will put a horrible defender at ss, so there won't be a ridiculous difference between the best and worst even with the number of plays they have to make. However, there will be some teams with great defenders at third and others who decide 3B defense is not important. Thus, the difference in runs will add up.

**Sven Draconian** · 06-09-2012, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by Vonlenska

No, it is. Several saber stats, if you give them credence, point to Miggy as being far and away the worst defensive 3B in MLB. Prince on the other hand, while bad, has a few people worse than him.

Cabrera's defense at 3B is bad, but it's not catastrophically bad. If the Tigers had a good SS or, really, more than one good defender, you could live with it. On RngR alone, Aramis Ramirez, Mark Reynolds and Chipper Jones were worse at 3B than Miggy is this year. The problem is they just can't turn ground balls into outs at a consistent pace, and that's on everyone.

I really do not understand your point (atleast so much in that you framed it as you disagreed with me).

My point: Miggy and Prince are not the biggest reason this team is bad defensively. They are both bad defenders, but not the biggest issue.

Your point: Some saber guys say Miggy is terrible (ok), then you argue Miggy isn't that bad... and then the issue is the they can't ground balls into outs and that's on everyone.

At no point do those two points conflict.