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  1. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBigD View Post
    Well he is the closer...he usually only pitches in save situations...and I'm pretty sure everyone realizes things dont go well when we bring him in with the game tied...Its not like he has a bunch of blown saves that we have come back to win either so I'm not sure what makes that data set so skewed...

    I would love to see a list of closers who have been better over the past 2 seasons...
    Stats measure the past. It's only logical to conclude that if Jose keep missing the strike zone bad things will start happening in the future.
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  2. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truman Show View Post
    That's an oddly specific set of data. The guy is still pitching like crap right now. I'm guessing what some of us want is for him to, you know, stop pitching like crap.
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  3. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by robgrave View Post
    And he didn't rely entirely on the fastball tonight. Couple of good splitters to Hamilton. Good sign, yes?
    almost like he wanted to really get warmed up before he went to it. Maybe the weather, but having to make 20 pitches before you get your game on is not exactly what you are looking for in your relievers!
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  4. #444
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  5. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBigD View Post
    Well he is the closer...he usually only pitches in save situations...and I'm pretty sure everyone realizes things dont go well when we bring him in with the game tied...Its not like he has a bunch of blown saves that we have come back to win either so I'm not sure what makes that data set so skewed...

    I would love to see a list of closers who have been better over the past 2 seasons...
    I really find it difficult to give Valverde a pass for being incapable of pitching unless he is in the last inning with a 3 run lead or less. If we're paying him 9 mil, he should be capable of pitching tie games.

    I'm glad he was great last year, but it's not last year anymore. He's got a WHIP of 1.7 right now, and he's walked 5 in 7.2 innings. That's objectively bad. What he did last year is not going to help anyone if he's going to keep doing those things.
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  6. #446
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    I wont argue that Jose has been quite wild and the splitter is concerning thus far this year....but I will continue to give him the benefit of the doubt that he will snap out of it and return to form. I think he has earned that much respect.

  7. #447
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  8. #448
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    Yay
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

  9. #449
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    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

  10. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truman Show View Post
    I really find it difficult to give Valverde a pass for being incapable of pitching unless he is in the last inning with a 3 run lead or less. If we're paying him 9 mil, he should be capable of pitching tie games.

    I'm glad he was great last year, but it's not last year anymore. He's got a WHIP of 1.7 right now, and he's walked 5 in 7.2 innings. That's objectively bad. What he did last year is not going to help anyone if he's going to keep doing those things.
    100% agree. If he doesn't throw his split more often, he's going to need to find a new job.

  11. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBigD View Post
    I wont argue that Jose has been quite wild and the splitter is concerning thus far this year....but I will continue to give him the benefit of the doubt that he will snap out of it and return to form. I think he has earned that much respect.
    That's fine, and I'm not trying to pile on. But I think so long as he is suffering with his control so much, the criticism is warranted. He was able to sharpen up towards the end of last season, so hopefully he can do the same this year.
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  12. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truman Show View Post
    I'm glad he was great last year, but it's not last year anymore. He's got a WHIP of 1.7 right now, and he's walked 5 in 7.2 innings. That's objectively bad. What he did last year is not going to help anyone if he's going to keep doing those things.
    So last year doesnt matter but 7.2 innings this year does? I just don't understand the huge concern here. We are talking about a guy who finished 5th in cy young voting last year...I say we give him a bit more time before we start to jump ship...

  13. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysthrowheat View Post
    100% agree. If he doesn't throw his split more often, he's going to need to find a new job.
    Hard to use the split to best advantage if you are always behind in the count.
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  14. #454
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    Thats all I'm saying....100% agree with what u said....

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBigD View Post
    Thats all I'm saying....100% agree with what u said....
    oops...meant to quote ur last post with this Truman

  16. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    Hard to use the split to best advantage if you are always behind in the count.
    I disagree actually, G-2. If he's throwing it well, it looks like a FB, and he gets swings and misses on 1-0, 2-1 counts. Plus, hitters can just sit on the FB, when he throws 20+ straight like he does tonight.
    Last edited by alwaysthrowheat; 04-21-2012 at 10:52 PM.

  17. #457
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    OK, but look. If we go into the ninth down one run, and don't at least threaten to score the tying run -- i.e., rally -- not matter who's on the mound, we are pissed. We expect our guys to put some pressure on. And so it is with the Rangers. They don't go quietly.

    My gripe isn't with Papa Grande. It's our offense that isn't getting it done. Stringing together some hits, big knocks from our mashers...you know, we should not be struggling like we have the last couple of weeks to score.
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  18. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysthrowheat View Post
    I disagree actually, G-2. If he's throwing it well, it looks like a FB, and he gets swings and misses on 1-0, 2-1 counts.
    Yes and no. If a guy is ahead in the count he's likely to (or at least should) be predisposed to take more pitches when a guy is throwing the split, as a split thrown to look in the K zone will probably be a ball at the plate. I guess all I'm saying is that split is most effective the more aggressive a hitter is. If a guy has a rep as splitter thrower I think a smart hitter has to be less aggressive when he is ahead, though I'm sure a lot aren't!

    EDIT: Alex just called the pen "three headed monster" LOL!
    Last edited by Gehringer_2; 04-21-2012 at 10:58 PM.
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  19. #459
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    Sure, Valverde is hardly the biggest problem. Honestly, I think the difference between a great closer and a mediocre one is not all that much, so long as the guy is still a reasonably competent reliever and not going Dan Schlereth on everyone.

    I was having a twitter discussion about relative "stress" that closers put on their fanbases. I don't know how to measure stress, but WHIP seems like a good place to start. Last year, Valverde had a WHIP of 1.189. That's pretty good, but looking at AL pitchers last year with at least 20 saves, 7 posted better WHIPs: Rivera, Feliz, Papelbon, Santos, League, Farnsworth, and Bailey. Just to give you an idea of where the bar is set in the AL.
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  20. #460
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    Verlander now 17-3 following a Tigers loss the last two years. He's an ace.

  21. #461
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    Yes and no. If a guy is ahead in the count he's likely to (or at least should) be predisposed to take more pitches when a guy is throwing the split, as a split thrown to look in the K zone will probably be a ball at the plate. I guess all I'm saying is that split is most effective the more aggressive a hitter is. If a guy has a rep as splitter thrower I think a smart hitter has to be less aggressive when he is ahead, though I'm sure a lot aren't!

    EDIT: Alex just called the pen "three headed monster" LOL!
    While you're completely correct, there's no excuse for throwing 20+ straight fastballs and 85% on the season.

  22. #462
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    Of course, if Valverde could get back to a WHIP of around 1.2 this year, I think most of the complaints would cease.
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  23. #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysthrowheat View Post
    While you're completely correct, there's no excuse for throwing 20+ straight fastballs and 85% on the season.
    Yup., You can only conclude Jose's FB must have better life than we can see from the telecast because on nights like tonight it is hard to believe he doesn't get hit harder.
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  24. #464
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    That game was really flippin' cold.

    Question - Avila's passed ball led to Verlander's one run. I don't think that that impacted JV's ERA...I also thought that only errors would not impact ERA...do passed balls not as well?
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  25. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by monkeynuts View Post
    That game was really flippin' cold.

    Question - Avila's passed ball led to Verlander's one run. I don't think that that impacted JV's ERA...I also thought that only errors would not impact ERA...do passed balls not as well?
    For the purpose of the run scoring the PB is the same as a fielders error. If the run would not have scored without the PB, the run is not earned. JV gave up 1 run, unearned.
    Last edited by Gehringer_2; 04-21-2012 at 11:39 PM.
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  26. #466
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    JV was NOT charged with an earned run.

    (as per ESPN box)
    Yeah...sorry...I didn't explain properly.

    I know he was not charged with an earned run, but at the same time Avila was not charged with an error. I assume it was a passed ball. I was always under the impression that a run is always an earned run unless an error led to that run scoring. If a passed ball led to that run, does that also not impact your ERA?
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    Quote Originally Posted by monkeynuts View Post
    Yeah...sorry...I didn't explain properly.

    I know he was not charged with an earned run, but at the same time Avila was not charged with an error. I assume it was a passed ball. I was always under the impression that a run is always an earned run unless an error led to that run scoring. If a passed ball led to that run, does that also not impact your ERA?
    Our posts are crossing in the dark. I reread yours and rewrote mine!
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  28. #468
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    For the purpose of the run scoring the PB is the same as a fielders error. If the run would not have scored without the PB, the run is not earned. JV gave up 1 run, unearned.
    Perfect - thanks. Funny the things you learn everyday in a sport you've followed since birth...
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    Sweet! Just got back from a party where I met lot's of great new people, a Twins fan among them, to find we win 3-2. Really happy!
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  30. #470
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    "If you want a guarantee, buy a toaster."--Clint Eastwood

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  32. #472
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoBert View Post
    sorry, Bert, but every time you post this gif, all I see is a horribly deformed thumb on an otherwise attractive young lass. freaks. me. out.
    GO TIGERS

  33. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ingefanclub View Post

    Ron Washington smokes crack.

    He had Harrison go 121 pitches in the opener despite a 9-2 lead late in the game.
    Hmm. Interesting post. I never thought of this possible connection.
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  34. #474
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefunk View Post
    sorry, Bert, but every time you post this gif, all I see is a horribly deformed thumb on an otherwise attractive young lass. freaks. me. out.
    I have to admit I thought that was a gag with a man's hand instead of her own......that is a very messed up thumb.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBigD View Post
    I wont argue that Jose has been quite wild and the splitter is concerning thus far this year....but I will continue to give him the benefit of the doubt that he will snap out of it and return to form. I think he has earned that much respect.
    +1

    Amazing how often Tiger fans get MAD at a closer that actually accomplishes his task.

    And like someone said, let's not forget that the Rangers' offense is pretty good itself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by robgrave View Post
    My gripe isn't with Papa Grande. It's our offense that isn't getting it done. Stringing together some hits, big knocks from our mashers...you know, we should not be struggling like we have the last couple of weeks to score.
    This is right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTroppens View Post
    +1

    Amazing how often Tiger fans get MAD at a closer that actually accomplishes his task.

    And like someone said, let's not forget that the Rangers' offense is pretty good itself.
    Maybe because "accomplishing his task" is the easiest job of any of the 12 pitchers on the team. Shocking that people get annoyed with a pitcher that routinely lets a lot of hitter reach base (send highest WHIP on the team). That's a disaster waiting to happen, as we've already seen this year. See also, Joaquin Benoit.
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    People are not upset about Valverde's past performance. He has done his job since he's been a Tiger. They are concerned about his future performance due to current control problems and over-reliance on his fastball. .
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    Also, Andrus nailed that one pitch. Thankfully, Raburn was his usual gold glove self and gloved it.
    Dodged a bullet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    Our posts are crossing in the dark. I reread yours and rewrote mine!
    Thought of something just now...what about a wild pitch? That's not an error, but is also the pitcher's fault...would that impact their ERA?
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