04-05-12-DETROIT VS BOSTON-(OPENING DAY)--1:05 PM

[John_Brian_K]

I also wanted to add something to the support of taking JV out.

I think it is HUGE for a pitchers confidence (yes even JV) to walk off the field knowing you only gave up 2 hits and went 8 innings. That is HUGE. Leave him in another inning and Boston somehow figures something out and gets a couple runs off him in that 9th and instead of walking off the field KNOWING you had a GREAT performance you get PULLED OFF THE MOUND and walk off the field feeling like you failed becuase you didn't get the win.

[pyrotigers]

Verlander would have gotten a CG easily if Miguel Cabrera didn't butcher an easy groundball at third base

I feel like we'll be saying things like that a lot this season

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

It was pretty damn obvious. 105 pitches through 8 on opening day and Leyland won't let the reigning MVP and Cy Young finish his brilliant 2 hitter. Lucky Leyland didn't cost us this game, like he was notorious for last year. In my estimation, it was egregious.

He wasn't 'notorious' for it last year. I don't recall anyone in the mainstream writing articles laying out games Leyland 'cost' for the Tigers.

Besides, the Tigers exceeded Pythagorean estimates by a wide margin. The Tigers did not lose a single game in which they were leading after 7 innings last year. What are these games Jim cost the Tigers last year?

Don't get me wrong, I disagree with a fair number of moves Leyland makes, like the Avila attempted bunt yesterday - for example, but it did not cost the Tigers the win. I'd say to the extent Leyland 'costs' games with his decisions, the Tigers are getting roughly the same number of games back because the opposing manager 'cost' their team the game by using Vinente Padilla or something.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Kind of humorous that Cabrera's error at third cost Verlander 10 pitches.

Which was jake's point, I think.

[John_Brian_K]

Verlander would have gotten a CG easily if Miguel Cabrera didn't butcher an easy groundball at third base

I feel like we'll be saying things like that a lot this season

Semantics, but I would not have called it 'easy'. Literally the second after it got by him I said there goes the first error of the season for Miggy. Mario said they ruled it a basehit at first. I KNEW that was going to change even before seeing the replay. A short while later they confirmed it. It was hit REAL hard, but he should have been in front of it. I do not put much on it though simply because it was so soon after he just got smacked in the eye. Now if he is doing it 2 weeks from now I will be concerned. An error is an error. Noone is perfect.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I also wanted to add something to the support of taking JV out.

I think it is HUGE for a pitchers confidence (yes even JV) to walk off the field knowing you only gave up 2 hits and went 8 innings. That is HUGE. Leave him in another inning and Boston somehow figures something out and gets a couple runs off him in that 9th and instead of walking off the field KNOWING you had a GREAT performance you get PULLED OFF THE MOUND and walk off the field feeling like you failed becuase you didn't get the win.

If Verlander doesn't have confidence in his abilities at this point, I doubt he ever will.

[mmwatkin]

Semantics, but I would not have called it 'easy'. Literally the second after it got by him I said there goes the first error of the season for Miggy. Mario said they ruled it a basehit at first. I KNEW that was going to change even before seeing the replay. A short while later they confirmed it. It was hit REAL hard, but he should have been in front of it. I do not put much on it though simply because it was so soon after he just got smacked in the eye. Now if he is doing it 2 weeks from now I will be concerned. An error is an error. Noone is perfect.

It was a play that should have been made. I think the bad hop in Clearwater was still fresh in his mind. The ESPN broadcasters were pretty kind to Cabrera, though. Quick to his defense. I was surprised. I thought for sure they would make a big stink about his inadequacies at third base.

[T&P_Fan]

He wasn't 'notorious' for it last year. I don't recall anyone in the mainstream writing articles laying out games Leyland 'cost' for the Tigers.

Besides, the Tigers exceeded Pythagorean estimates by a wide margin. The Tigers did not lose a single game in which they were leading after 7 innings last year. What are these games Jim cost the Tigers last year?

Don't get me wrong, I disagree with a fair number of moves Leyland makes, like the Avila attempted bunt yesterday - for example, but it did not cost the Tigers the win. I'd say to the extent Leyland 'costs' games with his decisions, the Tigers are getting roughly the same number of games back because the opposing manager 'cost' their team the game by using Vinente Padilla or something.

I won't go back and do it again, but I laid out at least 6 games last year where Leyland cost the tigers, getting most people to agree it was Leylands fault. It started early last year in Baltimore, with Brad Thomas.

Pythagorean means nothing to me.

[T&P_Fan]

Plus, all of us who watched the Tigers last year know just how lucky Valverde was last year. I was never a fan due to his inability to pitch in non save situations. I called for the Tigers to reject his option.

[mmwatkin]

I won't go back and do it again, but I laid out at least 6 games last year where Leyland cost the tigers, getting most people to agree it was Leylands fault. It started early last year in Baltimore, with Brad Thomas.

Pythagorean means nothing to me.

How many games did the Tigers win because of Leyland?

[T&P_Fan]

How many games did the Tigers win because of Leyland?

I think it's negative.

[pyrotigers]

Which was jake's point, I think.

Ah, I assumed he was getting on Verlander for not being efficient like Jair Jurrjens

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I won't go back and do it again, but I laid out at least 6 games last year where Leyland cost the tigers, getting most people to agree it was Leylands fault.

I don't remember this, and I personally doubt most would have agreed with the analysis. I mean, just because you would have done something different and Jim's move failed does not mean your move would have succeeded, nor does a failure necessarily mean it was the wrong move to make given the game situation and the fatigue levels of the players on the team.

It started early last year in Baltimore, with Brad Thomas.

Yeah, well Brad Thomas sucks, but the Tigers viewed him as a better option than the next suckiest pitcher. So he was going to get innings and likely suck. One could argue Brad Thomas was a failure of the farm system, not Leyland.

Pythagorean means nothing to me.

Yeah, it is only based on lots and lots of years of data. It disagrees with your viewpoint, so it should probably be ignored.

[EchO]

Easy there killer. JV pitched 4 complete games last year. I would have put money on JV coming out in the 9th if he was at 95 pitches. He may have not let JL take him out. He may have just ran out there either way. Do I 100% guarantee that? No, but I put the odds well over 50%. That is my opinion on it.



You are right on that last point. Of course noone knows for a fact what would have happened. We are allowed to guess though right? I completely agree with his take. I THINK JV at least starts the 9th if he was at 95 instead of 105. Maybe he mows em down and get the CG SO and maybe he gets one out and then struggles a little and then Valverde comes in.

He never prefaced it in any way as it was simply in his opinion. He (jake) stated it as a fact and that is what I was commenting on, I wasn't even referencing any of your posts...

I simply find it arrogant when people point out "bad" decisions ex post facto and act like they know what would have happened if things had hypothetically went differently. Jake has no clue if JV would've given up a 2 run homerun, or struck out the side in 9 pitches because it never came to fruition. Anything can happen and even though JV was dominate for much of the game, I don't think it would be outside the realm of possibility that JV gives up a solo-shot to a team that features a $190+ million payroll and ruin the CG shutout that jake stated as if fact.

[DontGotSheed]

Cabrera = Roger Dorn.

We need Charlie Sheen to sleep with his wife, then Cabby will be a fish net over there.

[alwaysthrowheat]

I won't go back and do it again, but I laid out at least 6 games last year where Leyland cost the tigers, getting most people to agree it was Leylands fault. It started early last year in Baltimore, with Brad Thomas.

How many games did he win us by making good decisions? We really have no idea. So, he's -6, but he could be +6 in other fashions. I'd guess he's about even. I'm no Leyland apologist, I don't agree with everything he does, but he isn't the reason that this team wins and loses. Valverde is getting paid to be the closer. Its his job to get 3 outs before the other team scores 2 runs. If you're not confident in him to do that, then we need a new closer. The odds were 95% that we were going to win in the 9th inning. It shouldn't have mattered who pitched the inning. It's Valverde's fault for not doing his job, it isn't like Leyland put him in an unfamiliar position.

Pythagorean means nothing to me.

Sure, it doesn't mean anything for past data. The Tigers won 95 games last year, but only should have won 89. However, it's more likely that if 10 or even 50 seasons were played, like any data given a bigger sample size, they'd have won somewhere between 87-91 games, and I'd venture to guess that 95 is more of an outlier. Going forward, it should mean a lot, though. It's extremely useful data, with years and years of accuracy.

Verlander would have gotten a CG easily if Miguel Cabrera didn't butcher an easy groundball at third base

I feel like we'll be saying things like that a lot this season

He'll more than make up for it with his bat. Yeah, it sucks that he's bad in the field, but we're going to kind of have to live with it.

Ah, I assumed he was getting on Verlander for not being efficient like Jair Jurrjens

Ah, yes. It's hard to be efficient from the DL, though.

[EppOnite]

No one knows if that missed bunt attempt by Avila was Jim's call or Alex doing in on his own. I would imagine the 1st pitch called strike when Alex pulled back was Jim's call. There is always the possibility that the choice was left up to Alex after strike one and he wanted to be a team players and get the job done after missing the 1st pitch.

[alwaysthrowheat]

No one knows if that missed bunt attempt by Avila was Jim's call or Alex doing in on his own. I would imagine the 1st pitch called strike when Alex pulled back was Jim's call. There is always the possibility that the choice was left up to Alex after strike one and he wanted to be a team players and get the job done after missing the 1st pitch.

It's not being a team player and getting a job done. A bunt there doesn't give the offense a higher probability of scoring a run.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

No one knows if that missed bunt attempt by Avila was Jim's call or Alex doing in on his own. I would imagine the 1st pitch called strike when Alex pulled back was Jim's call. There is always the possibility that the choice was left up to Alex after strike one and he wanted to be a team players and get the job done after missing the 1st pitch.

I'd bet a large sum of money against a tiny return that was Jim's call.

[Shelton]

It's not being a team player and getting a job done. A bunt there doesn't give the offense a higher probability of scoring a run.

Actually, a bunt in that situation does increase the team's chances of scoring a single run. It decreases overall run expectancy. In the fifth inning, I don't think it was the right call.

[EppOnite]

It's not being a team player and getting a job done. A bunt there doesn't give the offense a higher probability of scoring a run.

By "team player" I mean Alex could have been angry at himself for not getting the bunt down and had the option not to bunt on his second attempt. But since he was unsucessful the 1st time, it's possible it could have motivated him to get one down (even if it meant taking the bat out of his hands).

Team player was maybe the wrong choice of words but motivation to do the job he was originally asked to do is possible.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

By "team player" I mean Alex could have been angry at himself for not getting the bunt down and had the option not to bunt on his second attempt. But since he was unsucessful the 1st time, it's possible it could have motivated him to get one down (even if it meant taking the bat out of his hands).

Team player was maybe the wrong choice of words but motivation to do the job he was originally asked to do is possible.

I'd bet a large sum of money against a tiny return that was Jim's call.

[alwaysthrowheat]

Actually, a bunt in that situation does increase the team's chances of scoring a single run. It decreases overall run expectancy. In the fifth inning, I don't think it was the right call.

You're right. Got the expectancy and single run mixed up. Regardless, there was plenty of game left in that situation, and a flyball hitter was at the plate. Not to mention the two worst hitters on the team were behind him in the order.

[Shelton]

Agreed. Though Avila against lefties isn't amazing and Lester is an awesome lefty.

[RJBBREZ]

I also wanted to add something to the support of taking JV out.

I think it is HUGE for a pitchers confidence (yes even JV) to walk off the field knowing you only gave up 2 hits and went 8 innings. That is HUGE. Leave him in another inning and Boston somehow figures something out and gets a couple runs off him in that 9th and instead of walking off the field KNOWING you had a GREAT performance you get PULLED OFF THE MOUND and walk off the field feeling like you failed becuase you didn't get the win.

He's the MVP and Cy Young, doubt he needs more confidence. Any other pitcher on this staff, I agree with him taking him out in that situation, but not JV. He has shown he is durable, it was opening day against the Red Sox, everything was going right, why pull him?. But it's only one game. I am not calling for Jimmy Smokes' head or anything, just pissed me off at the time.

[Auburndale Ray]

This guy describes his experiences at Opening Day...
Don't take him seriously...
Even though he whines about everything...

DesigNate Robertson: The Nightmare That Was Opening Day in Detroit

[Biff Mayhem]

This guy describes his experiences at Opening Day...
Don't take him seriously...
Even though he whines about everything...

DesigNate Robertson: The Nightmare That Was Opening Day in Detroit

That blog is always a good read. I have read several similar accounts of opening day.

[MSUBrian11]

can any find that guy. he was section 148, row GG. Would love to see the people he was complaining about

2012 Opening Day: Red Sox at Tigers | tigers.com: Photos

[Casimir]

DesigNate Robertson: The Nightmare That Was Opening Day in Detroit

I can believe it. I was at the Fister playoff game against the Rangers last season, and some woman was carried out basically hogtied, kicking and swearing at the security and cops all along the way. Kicked out of a PLAYOFF game. Inexcusable