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  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melody View Post
    Israel is an entirely different set of circumstances being, essentially, a war zone.

    While even one mass murder at a school is too many, here in the states it is relatively rare. I'd really hate to see a TSA style overreaction here. It can't possibly be healthy for children to live every day in lockdown, always looking for an enemy that probably doesn't exist.

    I just don't support armed teachers and seriously doubt that most teachers would be behind the measure. Now in some rare circumstances (and we've got, or have had, a couple of schools like this where I live), an armed police officer on site might be called for. But these are high schools in violent neighborhoods and with significant gang activity.

    Now armed airline pilots, this I support.
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  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by monkeynuts View Post
    Connecticut Shooter Adam Lanza: His Mother's Guns? - ABC News

    Why the hell does any American civilian need a Bushmaster? Our country is so ****ed up.
    There's nothing really unique about a Bushmaster and a.223 is not a high powered rifle it's one of the smallest calibers available.
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  3. #363
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    thanks.....so more erroneous information out there....not surprising.
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  4. #364
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    "I believe everybody was hit more than once," said Dr. H. Wayne Carver, the state of Connecticut's Chief Medical Examiner.

    He said the bullets were uniquely damaging and that Lanza's victims died almost immediately.

    "The bullets are designed in such a fashion the energy is deposited in the tissue so the bullet stays in," Carver said. He described the wounds as a "very devastating set of injuries."
    In other words he used a round designed for hunting.
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  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigersSlappy View Post
    There's nothing really unique about a Bushmaster and a.223 is not a high powered rifle it's one of the smallest calibers available.
    How many rounds a minute can it fire?
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  6. #366
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    I know that mental health has become a big issue here, but in Adam Lanza's case, was he ever really considered mentally ill? It sounds like he was considered odd, anti social and there was some talk of Asperger's, which isn't really considred mental illness, more of a social or developmental disability. I guess it's still early in the investigation, but in this case, as much as I hate to say it, it really sounds like there wasn't a whole lot that could have been done to prevent it. As horrifying as it is, I think Oblong might be right.

  7. #367
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    This tragedy is as awful and senseless as any I have seen in my long(ish) life. The massacre of young elementary children and their teachers in a place meant to be safe for learning is an unimaginable horror. As much as I grieve for the children, I am also thankful that this kind of incident is very, very rare. This is how rare:

    There are roughly 132,000 primary and secondary schools in the United States educating almost 50 million children. Since New Year's Day 2000, there have been 81 shootings at schools costing 129 people their lives, including Friday's shooting (topline sources here and here). These incidents have occurred over the course of the almost 13 school years of the 21st century.

    Doing the math, we can see that in any given year, the chances that any one of those schools experiences a shooting is about 1 in 21,000, and the chances that a student loses her life as a result is 1 in over 5,000,000. That's how (thank God) rare this all is.

    It is absolutely essential that schools have plans in place to keep out armed intruders and have children and teachers understand what to do should someone get in. Nearly every school has that now, and this incident will lead schools to re-examine their own plans carefully.

    I just hope this all doesn't lead to a reactionary overindulgence in security and guns in schools all over the country. One of the things I worry about is the prospect that schools will become paramilitary operations, with armed guards and security apparatus communicating to the children and teachers every single day that they are confined in lockdown, like a prison. I fear that would have a terrible psychological effect on the children and teachers, and will ultimately result in nothing more than a transfer of tens of billions of our tax dollars from our pockets to the pockets of corporations equipping our schools with martial overkill, just to try to defeat 1 in five million odds.
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  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by monkeynuts View Post
    How many rounds a minute can it fire?
    The same as any other semi automatic rifle. It fires a round each time you pull the trigger.
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  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigersSlappy View Post
    The same as any other semi automatic rifle. It fires a round each time you pull the trigger.
    How many bullets are in each magazine? So it can shoot, what, 100 bullets a minute? Why does somebody need a weapon like that when they hunt or for self defense?
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  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by monkeynuts View Post
    How many bullets are in each magazine? So it can shoot, what, 100 bullets a minute? Why does somebody need a weapon like that when they hunt or for self defense?
    I believe the standard is 30 rounds for a Bushmaster, but you can buy larger clips/magazines just as you can for nearly any rifle. The legal limit in Michigan for hunting is 5 rounds, I don't know all the other state's laws but I'm sure it varies across the US.

    I think the 5 rounds is reasonable for hunting, for self defense it would certainly be up for debate but more would seem to be better for that purpose.

    Again, I know we won't agree but blaming the gun or the capacity of the magazine doesn't seem to make sense to me. A deeply evil person did this, forcing him to swap clips wouldn't have stopped it (and he may have done that).
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  11. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by smr-nj View Post
    I will hazard a guess that this would be something most teachers would do. You just feel protective of the children you care for and teach. You just do.
    I would guess that too. I would also guess that most elementary school teachers would not want to carry a gun with them in the classroom every day which I think was chasfh's main point.
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  12. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottwood View Post
    Gun control is only half the debate. America's mental health system and the billions its losing in funding to treat mentally ill people that need help is arguably a much larger issue.
    Good post... I just find it interesting that the folks here who argue that we need to focus primarily on improving access to mental health options for those in need are the same people who want to cut non-defense discretionary spending and keep tax rates low for the top 2%.

    If this is the issue, lets see the NRA and other pro-gun groups start donating good portions of their lobbying money to these issues. I'd be curious to know what the NRA does to promote the issues that exist within the mental health community in the United States. I'm guessing that, even though they complain about that every time one of these shootings happen, they don't do much.
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  13. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    Mental health facilities are expensive to run well, in-fact can become worse than prisons when not run well, and in America states are engaged to a race to the botton in public spending to make themselves more attractive to business development. There are are many subtle facets to the truth encapsulated in "Money is the root of all evil"
    This is basically correct... we all sit around here when this happens and say, "we have a mental health crisis, we need to invest more money," but at the same time, we have a whole bunch of politicians in Washington who would love nothing more than to take a meat ax to social spending programs. That inherently inflicts harm on mental health facilities around the nation.

    If the NRA and other pro-gun organizations truly believe this is the root of the problem, they should put their money where their mouth is and stop paying lip service to it every single time a massacre like this happens. Somebody said it earlier... if only the mental health community had a lobby as powerful as the NRA.
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  14. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melody View Post
    Israel is an entirely different set of circumstances being, essentially, a war zone.

    While even one mass murder at a school is too many, here in the states it is relatively rare. I'd really hate to see a TSA style overreaction here. It can't possibly be healthy for children to live every day in lockdown, always looking for an enemy that probably doesn't exist.

    I just don't support armed teachers and seriously doubt that most teachers would be behind the measure. Now in some rare circumstances (and we've got, or have had, a couple of schools like this where I live), an armed police officer on site might be called for. But these are high schools in violent neighborhoods and with significant gang activity.

    Now armed airline pilots, this I support.
    Good stuff, Melody...
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  15. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigersSlappy View Post
    In other words he used a round designed for hunting.
    I'm sure that's comforting to the families of those deceased.
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  16. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigersSlappy View Post
    I believe the standard is 30 rounds for a Bushmaster, but you can buy larger clips/magazines just as you can for nearly any rifle. The legal limit in Michigan for hunting is 5 rounds, I don't know all the other state's laws but I'm sure it varies across the US.

    I think the 5 rounds is reasonable for hunting, for self defense it would certainly be up for debate but more would seem to be better for that purpose.

    Again, I know we won't agree but blaming the gun or the capacity of the magazine doesn't seem to make sense to me. A deeply evil person did this, forcing him to swap clips wouldn't have stopped it (and he may have done that).
    I would counter argue that it would seem in at least some cases, the shooter exhausts whatever weapons he is carrying and that then rather than breaking to reload, that first break in his momentum is enough to bring him to his suicide point. I think it at least arguable that larger clips do contribute to the killing momentum in these situations. Not to mention that extra clips is just the kind of extra expense that the owner might have forgone since many of these weapons are not originally purchased with the intentional to kill all the people a shooter can carry the ammo to do in at one time.
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  17. #377
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    You seem obsessed with the NRA, for some reason. Their focus and mission, and what people donate money for, is training and education on firearms. They are not a social service agency.

    Nevertheless, the discussion isn't necessarily around the poor. This young man, for example, was from an affluent family and no doubt had private health insurance. The dangerous thirteen year old in the article another commenter posted has private insurance as well.

  18. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtutiger View Post
    This is basically correct... we all sit around here when this happens and say, "we have a mental health crisis, we need to invest more money," but at the same time, we have a whole bunch of politicians in Washington who would love nothing more than to take a meat ax to social spending programs. That inherently inflicts harm on mental health facilities around the nation.
    I'm sure more money would be required, but what is really needed is a change in policy. Most Americans, including conservatives like myself, are willing to invest in what is good and beneficial. We just want to see it being used wisely, and today it is not.

    I suggest that the funding currently being wasted on things like the nearly $200M worth of screening machines that were purchased by the TSA, never used, and are currently warehoused be diverted.

  19. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kacie View Post
    I know that mental health has become a big issue here, but in Adam Lanza's case, was he ever really considered mentally ill? ...
    Since apparently the mother kept the household completely closed, the brother has been out of touch for something like two years, and now the only good witnesses to his recent stability, his mother and himself, are dead, we may never know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melody View Post
    You seem obsessed with the NRA, for some reason. Their focus and mission, and what people donate money for, is training and education on firearms. They are not a social service agency.
    They aren't a social service agency. But they are a lobbyist. And they could take some of that money that they lobby with and put their money where there mouth is and help contribute to mental health causes. If it's the epidemic it's made out to be by the pro-gun people, they shouldn't have a problem with some of their dues contributing to those causes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melody View Post
    Nevertheless, the discussion isn't necessarily around the poor. This young man, for example, was from an affluent family and no doubt had private health insurance. The dangerous thirteen year old in the article another commenter posted has private insurance as well.
    No, it's not, but I've seen a score of posters in this thread claim that in light of this tragedy, we need to focus on mental health issues in this country in order to curb this violence. If that's the case, then the NRA should contribute some money to causes related to mental health.

    Furthermore, my grandmother was hospitalized (bipolar disorder) for the 6th time (overall) this year... her health plan was no slouch and the fact of the matter is that mental health issues in this country is about getting people in and out of institutionalized settings as quickly and quietly as possible. Long term in-patient basically doesn't exist anymore, and honestly, she'd be best in that setting. Either way, I don't necessarily think that having a Cadillac health plan (which we don't know this guy had) would have changed that fact.
    Last edited by mtutiger; 12-16-2012 at 12:19 PM.
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  21. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melody View Post
    I'm sure more money would be required, but what is really needed is a change in policy. Most Americans, including conservatives like myself, are willing to invest in what is good and beneficial. We just want to see it being used wisely, and today it is not.

    I suggest that the funding currently being wasted on things like the nearly $200M worth of screening machines that were purchased by the TSA, never used, and are currently warehoused be diverted.
    Agreed. I'd eliminate the entire TSA, honestly. But nothing is going to happen here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melody View Post
    I'm sure more money would be required, but what is really needed is a change in policy. Most Americans, including conservatives like myself, are willing to invest in what is good and beneficial. We just want to see it being used wisely, and today it is not.
    But the problem with the basic thrust of recent Conservative thought is that if every government activity at every level is approached with a knee jerk "kill the beast" outlook, it does not lead to engagement or dialog on program execution and reform, only pressure toward program termination. For instance, to me Bush's greatest failure, even worse in my eyes than his foreign policy debacles, was that he filled the Federal agencies all over the bureaucracy with people who had no interest in their departments actually doing a better job of executing their responsibilities.
    Last edited by Gehringer_2; 12-16-2012 at 12:22 PM.
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  23. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    But the problem with the basic thrust of recent Conservative thought is that if every government activity at every level is approached with a knee jerk "kill the beast" outlook, it does not lead to engagement or dialog on program execution and reform, only program termination.
    Exactly right...
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    I'm all for improving mental health research and access to mental health treatment. It's a complex and costly undertaking though. One of the big issues is how do we decide who needs to be dealt with and how do we go about it. Lots of people with mental health problems do not see themselves as having a problem and will not seek treatment. Except in extreme cases, you can't very well force them to get help as most people with mental health problems pose no more of a threat to society than so called normal people. Also, many people who are a threat (and those who aren't) become very good at concealing their problem so it becomes less noticeable.
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  25. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtutiger View Post
    I'm sure that's comforting to the families of those deceased.
    I apologize if it seemed crass. My point was that he seemed to be making it out to be some super bullet. His description in fact fit a hunting round perfectly.

    At the risk of seeming indifferent again.....and I'm not. Hunting rounds are designed to kill quickly and efficiently so the animal won't suffer. Again, it's the use that's wrong, not the product.
    Last edited by TigersSlappy; 12-16-2012 at 12:30 PM.
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    The NRA’s war on gun science - Salon.com
    Over the past two decades, the NRA has not only been able to stop gun control laws, but even debate on the subject. The Centers for Disease Control funds research into the causes of death in the United States, including firearms — or at least it used to. In 1996, after various studies funded by the agency found that guns can be dangerous, the gun lobby mobilized to punish the agency. First, Republicans tried to eliminate entirely the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, the bureau responsible for the research. When that failed, Rep. Jay Dickey, a Republican from Arkansas, successfully pushed through an amendment that stripped $2.6 million from the CDC’s budget (the amount it had spent on gun research in the previous year) and outlawed research on gun control with a provision that reads: “None of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.”

    David Satcher, the then-director of the CDC, wrote an Op-Ed in the Washington Post in November of 1995 warning that the NRA’s “shotgun assault” on the CDC was dangerous both for public health and for our democracy:
    What ought to be of wider concern, is the second argument advanced by the NRA — that firearms research funded by the CDC is so biased against gun ownership that all such funding ought to cease. Here is a prescription for inaction on a major cause of death and disability. Here is a charge that not only casts doubt on the ability of scientists to conduct research involving controversial issues but also raises basic questions about the ability, fundamental to any democracy, to have honest, searching public discussions of such issues.
    Dickey’s clause, which remains in effect today, has had a chilling effect on all scientific research into gun safety, as gun rights advocates view “advocacy” as any research that notices that guns are dangerous. Stephen Teret, who co-directs the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, told Salon: “They sent a message and the message was heard loud and clear. People [at the CDC], then and now, know that if they start going down that road, their budget is going to be vulnerable. And the way public agencies work, they know how this works and they’re not going to stick their necks out.”

    In January, the New York Times reported that the CDC goes so far as to “ask researchers it finances to give it a heads-up anytime they are publishing studies that have anything to do with firearms. The agency, in turn, relays this information to the NRA as a courtesy.”

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    Morgan Freeman's food for thought regarding the Sandy Hook shooting - Portland Celebrity | Examiner.com

    This is being reported as a hoax, but whether or not Morgan Freeman made this statement, IMO it's still one worth reading and considering.
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    Quote Originally Posted by monkeynuts View Post
    How many bullets are in each magazine? So it can shoot, what, 100 bullets a minute? Why does somebody need a weapon like that when they hunt or for self defense?
    Why In the world do you keep insisting she needed it? Are all of your possessions needed? I highly doubt it. It's so annoying when people do this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Why In the world do you keep insisting she needed it? Are all of your possessions needed? I highly doubt it. It's so annoying when people do this.
    You should not be annoyed in this case. We aren't talking about all possessions. Nobody tells you how big a house you can buy and nobody cares whether you 'need' the number of square feet by anyone's criteria but your own. The size of houses is not regulated.

    But under the common sense interpretation that the 2nd amendment has been given even in its most expansive reading, the government does retain the right to regulate the lethality of weapons that will allowed to the public. Since the regulation of that lethality must follow from some kind of rational basis, the 'need' of the citizen consumer is absolutely a relevant issue in the discussion.
    Last edited by Gehringer_2; 12-16-2012 at 02:50 PM.
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    This spot, and a place in my heart, is reserved for TC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lousluggage View Post
    Humanity Fail


    You could not make this stuff up.
    'No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. DNA View Post
    The Second Amendment is the most cockamamie excuse employed by rubes & boobs and of course the cynical gun lobby prostitutes.

    I've yet to see any convincing argument from the gun fetishists as to why, if I can possess a common firearm, I can't have my own independent nuclear deterrent as well. You aren't going to be watering **** with the blood of tyrants if you limit yourself to firearms. You need atomic, biological, and chemical weapons to really put the One World Government in its place.

    Your metal phallus extenders and lead Viagra capsules simply won't cut it against post WWI weaponry, you pathetic, fat, fatigue-wearing doofus.

    Yeah. Insult those opposed to you. That will persuade them that you are right. Talk about anonymously using a keyboard as a phallus-extending Viagra substitute.
    ‎"For lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone; the flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land."

    William Earnest Harwell (1918-2010), from the Song of Solomon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chasfh View Post
    This tragedy is as awful and senseless as any I have seen in my long(ish) life. The massacre of young elementary children and their teachers in a place meant to be safe for learning is an unimaginable horror. As much as I grieve for the children, I am also thankful that this kind of incident is very, very rare. This is how rare:

    There are roughly 132,000 primary and secondary schools in the United States educating almost 50 million children. Since New Year's Day 2000, there have been 81 shootings at schools costing 129 people their lives, including Friday's shooting (topline sources here and here). These incidents have occurred over the course of the almost 13 school years of the 21st century.

    Doing the math, we can see that in any given year, the chances that any one of those schools experiences a shooting is about 1 in 21,000, and the chances that a student loses her life as a result is 1 in over 5,000,000. That's how (thank God) rare this all is.

    It is absolutely essential that schools have plans in place to keep out armed intruders and have children and teachers understand what to do should someone get in. Nearly every school has that now, and this incident will lead schools to re-examine their own plans carefully.

    I just hope this all doesn't lead to a reactionary overindulgence in security and guns in schools all over the country. One of the things I worry about is the prospect that schools will become paramilitary operations, with armed guards and security apparatus communicating to the children and teachers every single day that they are confined in lockdown, like a prison. I fear that would have a terrible psychological effect on the children and teachers, and will ultimately result in nothing more than a transfer of tens of billions of our tax dollars from our pockets to the pockets of corporations equipping our schools with martial overkill, just to try to defeat 1 in five million odds.
    Good point, Chas.
    ‎"For lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone; the flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land."

    William Earnest Harwell (1918-2010), from the Song of Solomon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lousluggage View Post
    We see the scale of humanity here. The father of Emily Parker on one side and these scum on the other.
    "The escalator isn't out of order. It's just temporarily stairs."

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    Just watched the latest press conderence...

    The Bushmaster was the weapon used to slaughter every child. He had many magazines that held 30 bullets each and shot hundreds of rounds.
    Obama '12

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    2014AAT-Buck Farmer 2013AAT-Mr Ilitch 2013 AAL-Nick Fairley 2012AAL-Willie Young 2012AAT-Dixon Machado 2011AAL-Tom "Killer" Kowalski 2011AAT-Heather Nabozny 2010AAT-Phil Coke 2008&2007AAT-Sergio Collado
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigersSlappy View Post
    Sorry, but those articles are trash.
    "Thirty for me, that's yesterday," Valverde said. "It doesn't matter how many saves I have right now. The goal right now is the Tigers in first place, try to win every day, go to the playoffs and win everything."

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    I'd recommend looking at academic peer reviewed journal articles on the issue of SSRI's- not whatever those articles are.
    Dreaming about a repeat of 1984, 1968, 1945 and 1935

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    Quote Originally Posted by shabba4detroit View Post
    Yeah. Insult those opposed to you. That will persuade them that you are right. Talk about anonymously using a keyboard as a phallus-extending Viagra substitute.
    As if anyone's going to change their minds and as if you're never insulting or anonymous in your posting. Fact is, kids die so exurban racists can have their jerkoff fantasies.

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