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  1. #1201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Square Thing View Post
    *I* know you Americans aren't any better at doing stuff than the Mexicans,
    Huh?
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

  2. #1202
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    Huh?
    I'll decipher it for you.

    BST is suggesting that what happens in Mexico probably isn't the best place to be drawing conclusions about how effective gun control laws would be in the US.

    I'd also add, given the sheer number of guns owned in America, that even if future gun purchases were outlawed entirely, it would not be that hard to form a large group of heavly armed individuals and it wouldn't be indicative of the efficacy of the laws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballmich View Post
    Take a look at this picture, and tell me where all of these came from:

    USA! USA!

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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    Huh?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bigglesworth View Post
    I'll decipher it for you.

    BST is suggesting that what happens in Mexico probably isn't the best place to be drawing conclusions about how effective gun control laws would be in the US.

    I'd also add, given the sheer number of guns owned in America, that even if future gun purchases were outlawed entirely, it would not be that hard to form a large group of heavly armed individuals and it wouldn't be indicative of the efficacy of the laws.
    ^ that.

    Seriously, if you're using Mexico as your "we can't be any better than this at enforcing laws" line then that's fine by me. But I'd be surprised if you really meant that.

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    lol

    American exceptionalism = Mexican normalcy
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    One of my objections to additional laws are we do one lousy job of enforcement of those in place. Just this weekend a report of a local arrest where the arrested had 3 priors for assault with or carrying a firearm by a convicted felon. 18 counts prior related to violence and is on probation. All of his record is within the last 6 years, he is 22. No respect for others or the laws and we rehab him by allowing him to return to his lifestyle of choice while the lawful are to be saddled with more rules. Background checks already in place are not prosecuted when violations are found.
    I respect the views of those opposed to weapons until they attempt to enter my life. My wife shares those view and is not hypocritical about it. She does not wish to shoot and can live in a home with weapons without fear
    Live your life for what it can be and not for what it was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hueytaxi View Post
    One of my objections to additional laws are we do one lousy job of enforcement of those in place. Just this weekend a report of a local arrest where the arrested had 3 priors for assault with or carrying a firearm by a convicted felon. 18 counts prior related to violence and is on probation. All of his record is within the last 6 years, he is 22. No respect for others or the laws and we rehab him by allowing him to return to his lifestyle of choice while the lawful are to be saddled with more rules. Background checks already in place are not prosecuted when violations are found.
    I respect the views of those opposed to weapons until they attempt to enter my life. My wife shares those view and is not hypocritical about it. She does not wish to shoot and can live in a home with weapons without fear
    actually, per your last boastful message, background checks aren't even conducted.

    I fully agree that current background check laws should be enforced.

    I also respect the views of those in support of guns until they attempt to enter my life. That happened when you argued that lives weren't the issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfife View Post
    What's even more uncomfortable, to me, is that there's a huge swath of this country that literally wants it that way, and will fight tooth and nail to keep it that way.
    Random thought : does it make sense for someone to want to collect guns for self defense from the government, but support a trillion dollar defense budget that could be used to develop weapons to destroy and oppress its citizens?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Euphdude View Post
    Random thought : does it make sense for someone to want to collect guns for self defense from the government, but support a trillion dollar defense budget that could be used to develop weapons to destroy and oppress its citizens?
    I've asked that before too. The only ones here, as far as I can tell, that are even remotely consistent on that very astute point are our libertarian friends.
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    [QUOTE] Originally Posted by EuphdudeRandom thought : does it make sense for someone to want to collect guns for self defense from the government, but support a trillion dollar defense budget that could be used to develop weapons to destroy and oppress its citizens?



    "someone to want to collect guns for self defense from the government":
    I have difficulty determining your meaning from this thought. Is it for the percentage who believes we will someday have to defend from our government or obtaining from our government? The idea of armed troops going door to door confiscating guns is not unheard of. Currently armed troops in conjunction with local LEO's conducting training exercises in urban US cities is not unheard of. Reasoned worry is easy to understand. Now for budgeting, few think the heavy weapons of war would be employed against civil disobedience so can not see how that part of your thought is relevant. I see little reason not to support the right to bear arms and the right to support a strong national defense.



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    I don't think too many of them are actually scared of the government. People with enough disposable income to blow on gun collecting and who don't fit a certain profile generally don't have much to worry about from the government. And, deep down, they know it.

    Otherwise they'd be out in the streets in open rebellion over both Bush and Obama policies. If you care about civil liberties and talk macho about big evil gubmint taking your guns, you should be in full "WOLVERINES!" mode by now. Think the gun lobby is powerful? They've got nothing on the drone lobby. And drones make Bubba's AR-15 about as potent a weapon as a Pocket Fisherman...Much like Abdul's AK-47 doesn't stop him and his family from being wasted in Yemen or Somalia because some CIA computer program thinks he looks like a terrorist.

    Tip of the hat to the libertarians for being right on that front.

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    The 2nd amendment exists in part to "protect civilians from government oppression", and there are gun owners who collect guns and ammo for such a purpose. It would be interesting to hear the nra 's position on defense spending and how it could be used against the citizens of the U. S.

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    Only an extremist would worry about being targeted by a drone with a $58,000 Hellfire missile. Everyone should be concerned with unwarranted surveillance. It began years ago as security cameras and made people comfy. Then redlight cameras which can track movement and we felt comfy. Now LEO wants to protect us with drones and we will maintain our silence because we feel comfy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euphdude View Post
    The 2nd amendment exists in part to "protect civilians from government oppression", and there are gun owners who collect guns and ammo for such a purpose. It would be interesting to hear the nra 's position on defense spending and how it could be used against the citizens of the U. S.
    In addition, it has been presented here ad nauseum as a reason we shouldn't pass any gun control measures.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hueytaxi View Post
    Only an extremist would worry about being targeted by a drone with a $58,000 Hellfire missile.
    Yeah, I think Rand Paul is an extremist too. He's also going to filibuster extremely reasonable gun laws because he's an extremist.
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    So great to see this nation isn't forgetting.


    The Connecticut effect.

    Yankees, Red Sox pay tribute to Newtown victims
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  17. #1217
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    Common sense reigns over RWNJ hysterical mouthbreathing

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/02/ny...trol.html?_r=0
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  18. #1218
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    Major League Baseball will honor Sandy Hook victims at every Opening Day game this season


    Read more: Major League Baseball will honor Sandy Hook victims at every Opening Day game this season * - NY Daily News
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    LOL @ Lawrence O'Donnell completely destroying NRA henchman Asa Hutchinson right now. Completely destroyed the already near-nonexistant credibility of this "report". Curbstomping.
    Last edited by pfife; 04-02-2013 at 10:14 PM.
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    In an NRA fundraising letter dated July 23, 2012, LaPierre wrote the following about the 2012 presidential election: “The night of November 6, 2012, you and I will lose more on the election battlefield than our nation has lost in any battle, anytime, anywhere. Or, we will win our greatest victory as NRA members and freedom-loving Americans … The future of your Second Amendment rights will be at stake. And nothing less than the future of our country and our freedom will be at stake.”
    That's repugnant.

    Your guns are more important than kids *and* dead soldiers. How touching.
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  21. #1221
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    We've covered Magpul leaving Colorado with their jobs since the voting is complete. Now Connecticut is facing a larger departure with Colt, Mossberg, Marlin, Sturm (Ruger), Conntech, Gunx, US Firearms, Widley and even GE Credit Union. All manufacture guns in Connecticut. Massachusetts may be next which houses Harrington and Richardson, Savage and Smith and Wesson.
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    yawn
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  23. #1223
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    Default Black Friday Gun Sales Hit New Record High

    Quote Originally Posted by hueytaxi View Post
    We've covered Magpul leaving Colorado with their jobs since the voting is complete. Now Connecticut is facing a larger departure with Colt, Mossberg, Marlin, Sturm (Ruger), Conntech, Gunx, US Firearms, Widley and even GE Credit Union. All manufacture guns in Connecticut. Massachusetts may be next which houses Harrington and Richardson, Savage and Smith and Wesson.
    A good case can be made that manufacture of guns is, in the end, a zero sum economic activity. So to me this is on a par with complaining that if we make gambling illegal again the casinos will close. But those jobs are basically'predatory' jobs anyway.
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    so what's the upshot (pun intended) of these companies leaving? That those states that have experienced these horrific killings should just look the other way and pretend all is well so these death merchants don't take their jobs elsewhere? I'd say good f'n riddance if I were them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    A good case can be made that manufacture of guns is, in the end, a zero sum economic activity. So to me this is on a par with complaining that if we make gambling illegal again the casinos will close. But those jobs are basically'predatory' jobs anyway.
    I know you are talking more in terms of the economy as a whole, but I doubt this guy feels like that:

    PJ Media »
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    I know you are talking more in terms of the economy as a whole, but I doubt this guy feels like that:

    PJ Media »
    I doubt these 3,2293 people that have been killed by guns since Newtown feel like that:
    Gun-death tally: Every American gun death since Newtown Sandy Hook shooting (INTERACTIVE). - Slate Magazine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    A good case can be made that manufacture of guns is, in the end, a zero sum economic activity. So to me this is on a par with complaining that if we make gambling illegal again the casinos will close. But those jobs are basically'predatory' jobs anyway.
    Interesting that you would argue zero-sum, given that most progressives believe in the zero-sum fallacy. Regardless, the manufacture of firearms is clearly not a zero-sum activity. The US is the leading firearms exporter in the world, with about $7 billion in sales annually. It's a big industry. To argue zero-sum, you have to prove a there is are billions and billions of wealth destroyed for the US by selling these firearms. Good luck.
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    Default Black Friday Gun Sales Hit New Record High

    Quote Originally Posted by ballmich View Post
    Interesting that you would argue zero-sum, given that most progressives believe in the zero-sum fallacy. Regardless, the manufacture of firearms is clearly not a zero-sum activity. The US is the leading firearms exporter in the world, with about $7 billion in sales annually. It's a big industry. To argue zero-sum, you have to prove a there is are billions and billions of wealth destroyed for the US by selling these firearms. Good luck.
    take the cost of all the lost lives against the profit from those guns and I'll take my chances with the balance still being negative, economic or cosmic.
    Last edited by Gehringer_2; 04-03-2013 at 11:28 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    take the cost of all the lost lives against the profit from those guns and I'll take my chances with the balance still being negative, economic or cosmic.
    Yup.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    take the cost of all the lost lives against the profit from those guns and I'll take my chances with the balance still being negative, economic or cosmic.
    There are quite a few technologies that you can have the same argument for with respect to zero sum....cars just being one of those examples.
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    There are quite a few technologies that you can have the same argument for with respect to zero sum....cars just being one of those examples.
    yeah right
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    The "cars = guns" argument comes up a lot, and it's easily refuted by the simple fact that guns are designed to kill, while cars are designed to transport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Euphdude View Post
    The "cars = guns" argument comes up a lot, and it's easily refuted by the simple fact that guns are designed to kill, while cars are designed to transport.
    Furthermore, if cars=guns, we should regulate guns like we do cars.
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    "dada's moustache is so awesome" - my 2 and a half year old daughter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Euphdude View Post
    The "cars = guns" argument comes up a lot, and it's easily refuted by the simple fact that guns are designed to kill, while cars are designed to transport.
    I was talking about zero sum....and even said as much in my reply. Nothing you just said changes that.
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

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    Personally, I'd love to hear JBK's argument that banning cars would be a zero sum game. I suspect we won't get that though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfife View Post
    Personally, I'd love to hear JBK's argument that banning cars would be a zero sum game. I suspect we won't get that though.
    I'd love to hear any kind of argument without resorting to the 2nd amendment why guns shouldn't be subject to the kinds of regulations that cars are, since both are capable of causing great damage.

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    No one is worried about car registration leading to car confiscation. But with Diane Feinstein leading a battle for gun control and on record as saying she would have America "turn them in", there is great worry that such action will lend her ease to enact such a desire. In the simple game of tug of war, neither side dare give the other an inch or the game is over. Status quo. Simplistic and no lives at stake.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hueytaxi View Post
    No one is worried about car registration leading to car confiscation. But with Diane Feinstein leading a battle for gun control and on record as saying she would have America "turn them in", there is great worry that such action will lend her ease to enact such a desire. In the simple game of tug of war, neither side dare give the other an inch or the game is over. Status quo. Simplistic and no lives at stake.
    Turn what in?

    Kids lives shouldn't be the price of these kinds of paranoid delusions.
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    "dada's moustache is so awesome" - my 2 and a half year old daughter

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