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Thread: Trayvon Martin
03-20-2012, 02:07 PM #41
03-20-2012, 02:13 PM #42
03-20-2012, 02:25 PM #43
Seems like we do not have all the facts....not alot has been released according to that report.
"At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin," he wrote. "When the true details of the event become public, and I hope that will be soon, everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media."
I am really surprised everyone is taking the 'OMG this is the worst thing in the world and the man should hang.' type stance.
"Trayvon, 17, had no previous criminal record, while Zimmerman recently had a 2005 felony arrest for assault on a police officer expunged by the courts"
So we are supposed to take that as 'the poor kid who was shot was a model citizen and the guy who shot him was a monster', right?
Eligibility for an expungement of an arrest, investigation, detention, or conviction record will be based on the law of the jurisdiction in which the record was made. Ordinarily, only the subject of the record may ask that the record be expunged. Often, the subject must meet a number of conditions before the request will be considered. Some jurisdictions allow expungement for the deceased.
Requirements often include one or more of the following:
Fulfilling a waiting period between the incident and expungement;
Having no intervening incidents;
Having no more than a specified number of prior incidents;
That the conviction be of a nature not considered to be too serious;
That all terms of the sentence be completely fulfilled;
That no proceedings be pending;
That the incident was disposed without a conviction; and
That the petitioner complete probation without any incidents.
I am not taking any sides right now and will wait until I hear all the facts in this case before I make up my mind on it being racially motivated or simply the good guy got killed by the bad guy and frankly I am surprised as many of you are taking that stance without knowing anything but what the media is reporting."And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."
03-20-2012, 02:27 PM #44"And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."
03-20-2012, 02:54 PM #45
I'm pretty confused by the statement "At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin" given the tapes that have been made public. I'd suggest listening the those tapes. At the very least it will eliminate the surprise that people want this guy to hang (though you are certainly free to disagree with them, the emotional response seems pretty reasonable).Slowsilver: They did a study at Baseball Prospectus and found out that bionic parts increase WARP23 by 6.7% on average. Back in the steroid era, steroids only increased WARP23 by 4.6%
03-20-2012, 02:59 PM #46
I will follow the story and educate myself a little further on the subject. I read the first linked 'report' and it didnt seem as clear cut as it is being reported it was. Obviously I am missing something. Do you have a link to the tapes?"And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."
03-20-2012, 03:06 PM #47
GRAPHIC: Trayvon Martin 911 calls released | News - Home
All (or most) 911 calls associated with this incident. Together with reported testimony, they paint a pretty damning picture against Mr. Zimmerman.
Edit: Only the first two are really important, the rest are pretty much only useful as eyewitnesses in the dark.
Last edited by clark1mt; 03-20-2012 at 03:08 PM. Reason: Add info2014 AAT: Scott Sitz!!!
03-20-2012, 03:41 PM #48
03-20-2012, 04:02 PM #49
So I hear a guy calling in saying someone is walking around without purpose staring at houses in the rain and he knows of break ins recently. He says the guy was staring at him and started walking towards him and then the kid starts running off. Zimmerman apparently follows him and a fight breaks out and then Trayvon ends up shot in some guys back yard according to the witness calls and dies of his injuries.
Sounds like Zimmerman should have been arrested like others are saying at least to look into the shooting. I have no idea if it was a just shooting or not...I doubt anyone here can say if it was or was not.
Apparently this is gaining so much attention because of the law they are using to justify him not being arrested.
I am sure the police/DA etc had reason not to arrest him. I am sure after picking through this whole investigation we will find out one of the cops 10 years ago used a racist slur and he must have been lenient on Zimmerman and let him go. It will get twisted into something it is not most likely. A young man is dead and he probably shouldnt be...that is a tragedy.
03-20-2012, 04:04 PM #50MotownSports Fan
- Join Date
- Sep 2003
The real problem here is that Florida's draconian CCW laws require an applicant to be 21 years old. If the Second Amendement rights of Mr. Martin were protected, he may have been able to defend himself.
03-20-2012, 04:20 PM #51
And yes, I'm sure the police/DA had reason not to arrest him as well. Given the way self defense laws are written and the fact that the only witness to what actually happened is the shooter they probably can't prove reasonable doubt.Slowsilver: They did a study at Baseball Prospectus and found out that bionic parts increase WARP23 by 6.7% on average. Back in the steroid era, steroids only increased WARP23 by 4.6%
03-20-2012, 04:58 PM #52
Now, to be fair I believe the majority of people on here are just more concerned with why Zimmerman was not at least arrested. I am among them and surprised he was not, but again I HIGHLY doubt EVERY peron that shoots another in Florida just walks away without going to jail and having a trial or investigation. I am guessing there is GOOD reason this guy did not go off to jail or arrested. I am not going to look at it and say 'oh it was a black guy and they decided to let the guy go' like I have heard a few times.
We can pontificate all we want, but noone here ir privy to all the details and the peeple screaming outrage need to chill a little is all I am saying.
03-20-2012, 06:38 PM #53I believe that man will not merely endure: he will prevail. He is immortal, not because he alone among creatures has an inexhaustible voice, but because he has a soul, a spirit capable of compassion and sacrifice and endurance. óWilliam Faulkner
03-20-2012, 06:56 PM #54
I'm going to offer some pure conjecture, but this is what I think went down (based on the 911 calls, Zimmerman's history a la calling the police on people so often, the testimony that's been reported, etc.)
Zimmerman calls the police from his car reporting a suspicious person (Martin). As he stays on the line, he is advised not to try to follow (in car or out) Martin. He ignores this. Martin notices he's being followed, and being black in an already racially tense city, is scared. Martin begins to flee, and Zimmerman promptly chases him. Zimmerman manages to corner Martin (say, in a fenced-in yard) and confronts him, perhaps showing his gun. Martin, seeing that Zimmerman is clearly not a cop, fears for his life, and attacks Zimmerman in an attempt to escape. Zimmerman manages to get the upper hand, and promptly shoots Martin first chance he gets (perhaps at this point fearing for his life). Zimmerman claims self-defense.
The biggest issue here is that one 911 call where you can hear someone screaming "no!" If it can be proven that this yelling was from Martin, then it certainly appears that Zimmerman shot him while he was begging for his life, which at that point would certainly not be self-defense.
From the testimony that I've heard about, it would seem that someone (Zimmerman, based on clothing descriptions) was standing over someone else on the ground (Martin). The witness to that then heard a single gunshot (Martin being killed).
Anyway, this is all conjecture, but it is the picture I have in my mind of how it happened. Where the truth lies is only known to one person: George Zimmerman. And good luck getting full honesty from him.2014 AAT: Scott Sitz!!!
03-20-2012, 07:21 PM #55
03-20-2012, 07:29 PM #56
I'm not sure what the letter of the law in Florida says, but to my morals.....one kid was walking outside, a man calls 911 about him, is told to stay away, _______, they get in a fight, the man with the gun kills him. Unless something very unlikely happened to fill in that blank space, to my morals, the man with the gun that was first aware of the other is the man to blame, pretty clearly.We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. - DDE
Those who take the extreme positions in American political and economic life are always wrong. - DDE
03-20-2012, 07:33 PM #57
My morals say that if you want the privilige of owning/carrying a gun, then the responsibililty of burden of innocence is on you if someone dies from that gun, whether you pulled the trigger or not.
I have no idea what this "standing your ground" crap is..
03-20-2012, 07:44 PM #58
It's a god awful case that makes you shudder. If the facts are what they appear to be, Zimmerman should be locked up for life.Obama '12
2012 MSU Football Unofficial Adopt-A-Spartan - Larry Caper
03-20-2012, 08:21 PM #59
Draconian laws or not, the courts and legislators have put them in effect. Overall Florida has shown a drop in crime in the last 7 years since enacted. Use your weapon and be prepared to pay the price for carrying. Claiming self defense must have basis. While the press is converging on the "murder" of Trayvon Martin, the suppporting evidence released, reinforces the press's view.Live your life for what it can be and not for what it was.
MMXIV AAT: KYLE RYAN
03-20-2012, 10:17 PM #60
Well, I think when he said those a-holes always get away it showed a fair amount of intent on George Zimmerman's part. Maybe he didn't exit his car meaning to kill him, but he was going after this kid - and for what? He was following the kid and the kid reacted......most would. The dispatcher told him to stay in his car. Zimmerman had no kind of evidence whatsoever that the kid was doing any wrong - because the kid wasn't doing anything wrong. He really had no right at all to confront him. He should have left it to the cops. What Oblong said...sure you have a right to have a gun, but you better know what the hell you are doing before you go off and do something stupid - based on prejudices.
And sorry monkeynuts, but I support the 2nd amendment, but I don't want everyone walking around with guns and I don't trust the judgement of most 17 year olds. Not that they are bad, but they are 17. Some 28 year olds don't have any judgement, but I will take my chances more often with someone over 21. You need to prove you can handle the responsibility of driving a car to get a license, why not have to prove you can handle a gun to be allowed to carry one?World Series or Bust. Guess What? Bust........again.
03-20-2012, 10:45 PM #61Live your life for what it can be and not for what it was.
MMXIV AAT: KYLE RYAN
03-21-2012, 03:44 AM #62MotownSports Fan
- Join Date
- Jul 2003
Just heard something that sounded like Zimmerman muttering "****ing coons" on his 911 call. If that's truly the case, he's toast.
03-21-2012, 06:00 AM #63
03-21-2012, 06:03 AM #64
Slate.com had an article that asserted claims of justifiable homicide had tripled since the law went into effect. (No obvious link in that article to an original source).
http://mobile.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2012/03/why_george_zimmerman_trayvon_martin_s_killer_hasn_ t_been_prosecuted_.htmlThere are 30 MLB teams so each one should win the World Series on average once every 30 years.
03-21-2012, 06:44 AM #65
And if you really doubt that race has any relevance to this case whatsoever, imagine a 17-year-old white kid being gunned down in this manner and the shooter (whatever his race) going this long without being charged. Can't imagine such a scenario? Well, neither can I.
03-21-2012, 07:01 AM #66
Compare Crime Rates Joliet, IL - Orange Park, FL This gives FBI crime rates to compare localities. I'd be surprised to see that Chicago crime rates were down. Chicago and Miami are both 9's on this scale for violent crime. Not sure how the burg where Zimmerman and Martin resided scores on this scale.
03-21-2012, 07:24 AM #67
It's absurd to think we can ever know all the facts. Had people taken your advice and chilled a little this case would never have gotten any media attention and would be dead already. The only reason there is currently an investigation is that people didn't just chill a little.Slowsilver: They did a study at Baseball Prospectus and found out that bionic parts increase WARP23 by 6.7% on average. Back in the steroid era, steroids only increased WARP23 by 4.6%
03-21-2012, 08:25 AM #68
this thread is silly...thanks for blowing up an accident into some sort of national policy discussion, you axe grinders.
03-21-2012, 09:21 AM #69
I think it went down like this:
Zimmerman mistakenly (or maybe not mistakenly) took Trayvon for someone up to no good. Trayvon noticed Zimmerman was eyeing him and started towards Zimmerman to ask what his deal was, Zimmerman flashed his gun and Trayvon started to run away. Zimmerman pursued not wanting, what he thought, was a criminal to get away. Sounds like Zimmerman somewhere int he next little bit here got too over zealous about apprehending what he thought was a criminal. A fight ensued and Trayvon was shot.
03-21-2012, 09:24 AM #70
03-21-2012, 09:28 AM #71
[QUOTE=qsilvr2531;2693824]See, even the situation you described (where Martin grapples the gun away and Zimmerman gets it back) Zimmerman isn't acting in self defense, Martin is. At best Zimmerman screwed up, completely misread the situation and a kid ended up dead because of it.
It's absurd to think we can ever know all the facts. Had people taken your advice and chilled a little this case would never have gotten any media attention and would be dead already. The only reason there is currently an investigation is that people didn't just chill a little.[/QUOTE]
This is the part that scares me. Public opinion should NEVER be used to prosecute someone. Just because Zimmerman 'may' be some kind of jerk in real life doesnt mean what happened earns him life in prison. We do not know the facts.
You honestly think stuff like this doesnt happen every day? Every hour of every day? I am not saying let the dude go. I am saying let the good people of Florida take care of their own investigation and stop 'forcing' the hand of the captain of that department. At what point do you think they say 'well bring him in.' because of the public outcry even if their investigation is showing Zimmerman did nothing wrong? I am not saying he DIDNT do anything wrong, but I do not know either way, but how long before they bring him in to shut up all the people who do not know all the facts but are 'outraged' by this?
03-21-2012, 10:29 AM #72
03-21-2012, 10:31 AM #73
03-21-2012, 10:36 AM #74
When you shoot someone dead the burden is on you to prove you are innocent..
03-21-2012, 10:45 AM #75
Heard more things about this on Morning Joe today:
They drug tested Martin's dead body but not Zimmerman.
Martin's family did not know he had been killed for three days. They were calling his cell phone, which the police had. Neither police nor the Med Examiner contacted the family.
Martin was on the phone with a girlfriend telling her someone was following him. She heard the initial part of the confrontation with Zimmerman.I'll panic if my kid flunks math.- Jim Leyland
03-21-2012, 10:53 AM #76
03-21-2012, 10:56 AM #77
I do not think someone who, at best, accidentally killed an unarmed kid, should be allowed to continue carrying a weapon (certainly not a concealed weapon while out on an unofficial patrol), even if it really was all just a mistake. Which, again, is the best case scenario here.
03-21-2012, 11:01 AM #78"For lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone; the flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land."
William Earnest Harwell (1918-2010), from the Song of Solomon.
03-21-2012, 11:03 AM #79
I have said it a couple times already, but I do not want my opinion on this twisted. IF Zimmerman did in fact do something considered illegal in Florida then he should do jail time for murder...straight up.....
What I do not want to see:
Zimmerman being prosecuted even though the police and investigators do not think what happened was illegal because Spike Lee or Russel Simmons decided to tweet about it.
What I hope is not the case:
A cover up by the police or a straight up murder getting over looked simply because Trayvon was a black boy.
What I really think happened:
I have no idea.
03-21-2012, 11:03 AM #80
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