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  1. #4241
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfife View Post
    Right, but we're not talking philosophy - we're talking about laws & rights. If you want a law that allows this for people to discriminate based on their religious beliefs, there should at least be examples of people's religious beliefs being violated - and even Jan Brewer said she couldn't find an example of that in Arizona.
    The problem addressed actually happened in NM. The same couple might not win in Arizona because I don't think that sexual orientation is a special protected class in AZ. The NM ruling was based on state, not federal law. At least that's my understanding.

    So something for people to think about when attempts are made to extend special protections to sexual orientation. Unfortunately, it might result in some abuse. But this is the backlash to activists abusing the law to get revenge on people who disagree with them.

    And I still don't get why someone would want to force a photographer or cake baker into involvement in what is supposed to be a happy, loving occasion. Seems like you'd want haters are far away from you as possible. Crazy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melody View Post
    The problem addressed actually happened in NM. The same couple might not win in Arizona because I don't think that sexual orientation is a special protected class in AZ. The NM ruling was based on state, not federal law. At least that's my understanding.

    So something for people to think about when attempts are made to extend special protections to sexual orientation. Unfortunately, it might result in some abuse. But this is the backlash to activists abusing the law to get revenge on people who disagree with them.

    And I still don't get why someone would want to force a photographer or cake baker into involvement in what is supposed to be a happy, loving occasion. Seems like you'd want haters are far away from you as possible. Crazy.
    What is the backlash you're talking about? I'm not following you

  3. #4243
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfife View Post
    What is the backlash you're talking about? I'm not following you
    The backlash is hesitance on the part of states, municipalities, etc. to extend special protections to sexual orientation which, theoretically, could allow people not to serve or employ homosexuals in circumstances where imo it shouldn't be an issue at all.

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    Another thing I'm wondering - are these people practicing their religion while photographing as part of their job/business?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melody View Post
    The backlash is hesitance on the part of states, municipalities, etc. to extend special protections to sexual orientation which, theoretically, could allow people not to serve or employ homosexuals in circumstances where imo it shouldn't be an issue at all.
    what are these "special protections" you're talking about?

  6. #4246
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfife View Post
    Another thing I'm wondering - are these people practicing their religion while photographing as part of their job/business?
    You should be always practicing your religion.
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  7. #4247
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfife View Post
    what are these "special protections" you're talking about?
    Specific classes of people are given legal protection against discrimination: age, race, gender, religion, etc.

    At present, there is no specific protection in AZ for discrimination based on who you like to have sex with so no grounds for a lawsuit. It's technically legal.

    Edit: I found this article which, imo, lays out the issue in AZ pretty well. Reality versus rhetoric in the SB1062 debate | Arizona Capitol Times
    Last edited by Melody; 02-28-2014 at 11:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melody View Post
    Specific classes of people are given legal protection against discrimination: age, race, gender, religion, etc.

    At present, there is no specific protection in AZ for discrimination based on who you like to have sex with so no grounds for a lawsuit. It's technically legal.

    Edit: I found this article which, imo, lays out the issue in AZ pretty well. Reality versus rhetoric in the SB1062 debate | Arizona Capitol Times
    Those aren't specific classes of people.

    Those apply to everyone

  9. #4249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melody View Post
    ...

    And I still don't get why someone would want to force a photographer or cake baker into involvement in what is supposed to be a happy, loving occasion. Seems like you'd want haters are far away from you as possible. Crazy.

    Well, you normally you don't want the baker nearby, just the cake. Most photographers seem to be depised by all by the end the wedding anyway, hate there is probably unavoidable...
    Last edited by Gehringer_2; 02-28-2014 at 11:50 AM.
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  10. #4250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    Well, the normally you don't want the baker nearby, just the cake. Most photographers seem to be hated by all by the end the wedding anyway, that is probably unavoidable...
    Oh gosh. My daughter really hates doing weddings, but occasionally will agree to one as a favor to someone. She really does beautiful work, but every time she swears, "Never again."

    One of the craziest was a former lesbian with a large tattoo on her back showing two intertwined, rainbow colored symbols for woman. She had changed her mind, evidently, and was marrying a man. For whatever reason, she wore a wedding gown that was backless and didn't use makeup to cover the tattoo.

    Then AFTER the wedding and reception, she threw a fit insisting that my daughter go through every danged photograph and photoshop out her tattoo. Daughter agreed to edit a few of them, but flat out refused to do the entire set of hundreds of photographs. Geez. She did that wedding for practically nothing as a favor to the family and it was a headache from start to finish.

  11. #4251
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  13. #4253
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    Well...


  15. #4255
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    In the aftermath of the abominable media coverage of Arizona’s religious liberty bill, an editor shared his hypothesis that journalists care about freedom of speech and of the press because they practice them. And journalists don’t care about freedom of religion because they don’t.

    But one of the most interesting things about modern media’s deep hostility toward the religious, their religions, and religious liberty in general is that press freedom in America is rooted in religion.

    Dumb, Uneducated, And Eager To Deceive: Media On Religious Liberty
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  16. #4256
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    I hope you guys continue to promote these kinds of bills. I really do.
    Distribution of wealth is not in any way democratic. It is, in fact, tyrannical, in that a very select few own almost all of it, while most have little to no access. To have a country that prioritizes wealth over individual rights is the antithesis of democracy.

  17. #4257
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    Gerrymandering at it's finest in Florida.
    Live your life for what it can be and not for what it was.

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  18. #4258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auburndale Ray View Post
    I believe this add is being discussed in the Obamacare thread.

  19. #4259
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    Did he really say this? If so... that's stinking hilarious!

  21. #4261
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    Bill Clinton poses with PROSTITUTES at a charity event | Mail Online

    Oh my. I suspect that this was a set up, but ... LOL

  22. #4262
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCouga View Post
    I hope you guys continue to promote these kinds of bills. I really do.
    It doesn't matter what the bill says as long as the media plays along with the deception of what it really says or does.
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    2007AT-AAT-Alan Trammell

  23. #4263
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigersSlappy View Post
    It doesn't matter what the bill says as long as the media plays along with the deception of what it really says or does.
    Wow. No kidding. That deal was very successfully framed to be something other than what it was intended to be. I saw a Forbes tweet today that said, "How the NFL helped kill Arizona's anti-gay rights bill." I didn't click through to the article, though.

  24. #4264
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    From the Ukraine...


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    Quote Originally Posted by TigersSlappy View Post
    It doesn't matter what the bill says as long as the media plays along with the deception of what it really says or does.
    Looks like your side needs to hire their own Frank Luntz.

  26. #4266
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  27. #4267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melody View Post
    Wow. No kidding. That deal was very successfully framed to be something other than what it was intended to be. I saw a Forbes tweet today that said, "How the NFL helped kill Arizona's anti-gay rights bill." I didn't click through to the article, though.
    How else should it be described? What if my religion says that african-americans are dark skinned because God has rejected them. Can I deny them service at my business? How about if I think conservatives have abandoned the true word of Jesus, can I ban them from my store?

    When you choose to conduct business in the public sphere you expose yourself to laws and regulations, and one of those is that you don't get to discriminate against people, whether your religious beliefs say that it's OK or not. You know where your freedom of religion is? It's that you can go home and believe whatever hateful garbage you want and no one can stop you. You even have free speech so you can shout about it like the Westboro lunatics if you want. That's it though. Everyone else has the right to practice their own beliefs without being discriminated against and attacked.

    Welcome to America

    In fact, I have a great idea. Just pretend being gay is a choice, that shouldn't be hard for you, but it's not just a choice, it's a religious belief. Stop trying to discriminate against their religion.
    Kobernoooooous

  28. #4268
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrotigers View Post
    How else should it be described? What if my religion says that african-americans are dark skinned because God has rejected them. Can I deny them service at my business? How about if I think conservatives have abandoned the true word of Jesus, can I ban them from my store?

    When you choose to conduct business in the public sphere you expose yourself to laws and regulations, and one of those is that you don't get to discriminate against people, whether your religious beliefs say that it's OK or not. You know where your freedom of religion is? It's that you can go home and believe whatever hateful garbage you want and no one can stop you. You even have free speech so you can shout about it like the Westboro lunatics if you want. That's it though. Everyone else has the right to practice their own beliefs without being discriminated against and attacked.

    Welcome to America

    In fact, I have a great idea. Just pretend being gay is a choice, that shouldn't be hard for you, but it's not just a choice, it's a religious belief. Stop trying to discriminate against their religion.
    I can see all of that. I mostly agree. The 'Welcome to America' line does seem contradictory though. It is ok for the government to force privately owned businesses to serve everyone, but not ok for that business owner to refuse service if it interferes with some belief system. You have the government basically doing what the small business owner was doing just on a bigger scale. You disenfranchise more this way than you would leaving it up to the privately owned business owner. For what? For the hateful little person to rub their choice on the person who does not agree with it? Why else would someone willingly go to a store that believes something so vehemently that people actually know about it other than to say 'neener, neener you cannot deny me service' when they can go down the street to the store who may very well be owned by a person who believes they can do whatever they want? You are HELPING the person who believes you are 'sinful' or whatever by giving them your money. Why not go to the store that you know thinks you are ok?

    I just do not get the mindset. Eventually that person who is denying service based on some moral belief is going to go out of business. Let them. If I walked into a store and someone was giving me the stink eye....they are 'accessing' me. They decide 'ok this dude is Irish...I am not serving no stinking Irishman!' I go up to the counter and the guy says 'Get out of my store stinking Irish! I will not serve the likes of you!' At first I think I would be outraged...and then I would laugh in his face and walk out...letting everyone I know, in on the 'secret' that this store owner hates Irish people. The word gets around and most people are going to stop going to that store...not so much because they are Irish themselves, but because they are intolerant to hate. As much as I think society as a whole are a bunch of morons I think we are also moving towards a more tolerant society in terms of lifestyle choices etc. Word of that store owner gets around and his business will suffer. I would put money on that.
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

  29. #4269
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrotigers View Post
    How else should it be described? What if my religion says that african-americans are dark skinned because God has rejected them. Can I deny them service at my business? How about if I think conservatives have abandoned the true word of Jesus, can I ban them from my store?

    When you choose to conduct business in the public sphere you expose yourself to laws and regulations, and one of those is that you don't get to discriminate against people, whether your religious beliefs say that it's OK or not. You know where your freedom of religion is? It's that you can go home and believe whatever hateful garbage you want and no one can stop you. You even have free speech so you can shout about it like the Westboro lunatics if you want. That's it though. Everyone else has the right to practice their own beliefs without being discriminated against and attacked.

    Welcome to America

    In fact, I have a great idea. Just pretend being gay is a choice, that shouldn't be hard for you, but it's not just a choice, it's a religious belief. Stop trying to discriminate against their religion.
    Um, the bill wasn't only addressing issues relating to homosexuality.

  30. #4270
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    ...
    I just do not get the mindset. Eventually that person who is denying service based on some moral belief is going to go out of business. .....

    You'd like to believe the market would work this way, but it won't. Those discriminated against are usually minority populations whose business majority business can well live without just as it did under Jim Crow for 80 years. And when there is social cohesion in the discriminating majority as there was under Jim Crow, the action of serving the minority does not increase your market, it results in loss of your majority customers. Those details of the social dynamic are not dealt with by the Austrian schools of free markets.
    Last edited by Gehringer_2; 03-03-2014 at 03:49 PM.
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  31. #4271
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    Whatever. I wasn't intending to rehash all that, only noting how isolating and framing some issue affects public perception. They could have said, "NFL opposes bill to protect Nuns' religious freedom." Same tactic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    You'd like to believe the market would work this way, but it won't. Those discriminated against are usually minority populations whose business majority business can well live without just as it did under Jim Crow for 80 years. And when there is social cohesion in the discriminating majority as there was under Jim Crow, the action of serving the minority does not increase your market, it results in loss of your majority customers. Those details of the social dynamic are not dealt with by the Austrian schools of free markets.
    my thought is....

    who cares if the market would do this. We already know as a society that we want our laws to do this.

  33. #4273
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfife View Post
    my thought is....

    who cares if the market would do this. We already know as a society that we want our laws to do this.
    that is true enough. But I am sympathetic to an argument that you shouldn't make law where you don't need it. So if a conservative argues in good faith that he thinks we don't need law "X" because we will get the same positive result without the law, and I think that is naive/idealistic/wrong, I'm happy to take up the argument on that point as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    that is true enough. But I am sympathetic to an argument that you shouldn't make law where you don't need it. So if a conservative argues in good faith that he thinks we don't need law "X" because we will get the same positive result without the law, and I think that is naive/idealistic/wrong, I'm happy to take up the argument on that point as well.
    I don't think its worth risking rights just to try out their utopian theories

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melody View Post
    Whatever. I wasn't intending to rehash all that, only noting how isolating and framing some issue affects public perception. They could have said, "NFL opposes bill to protect Nuns' religious freedom." Same tactic.
    except their religious freedom doesn't need protecting

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    Quote Originally Posted by pfife View Post
    except their religious freedom doesn't need protecting
    Well, they sure think it does. I guess we'll see what the SCOTUS says.

    Which is aside from my point. Calling it an "Anti gay rights bill," is not a true representation of the bill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melody View Post
    Well, they sure think it does. I guess we'll see what the SCOTUS says.

    Which is aside from my point. Calling it an "Anti gay rights bill," is not a true representation of the bill.
    Yes it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pfife View Post
    Yes it is.
    Its a "I want to legally discriminate against groups that I'm not comfortable with, and use the values of my mass delusion to justify it" bill.
    It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan http://th07.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/...yx-d41sg12.png

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    It seems to me pretty undeniable that it opens the door for legalized discrimination against all sorts of folks, including gays. That would strike me as anti-gay rights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pfife View Post
    It seems to me pretty undeniable that it opens the door for legalized discrimination against all sorts of folks, including gays. That would strike me as anti-gay rights.
    This is my point. But nobody gives a rat's butt about the rest of the folks. Never mind that the courts weren't taken out of the process, and the refusing party would still have to convince a judge that it was a valid religious objection and a public accommodation.

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