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  1. #521
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    Quote Originally Posted by billms View Post
    Good. I think we are in agreement then. It sounds from the story like it was the law that they had to be properly equipped and certified. Maybe the coast guard had some leeway. If not maybe somebody should have stepped in and said - tough - do it now - ship the preservers to them while afloat. There are too many unknowns. And the problem is so big and going to last so long that this delay is going to cause ... ahem ... a drop in the bucket compared to all of the oil out there.

    Jindal may have a legitimate beef. His history - from my perspective - is to be more of a poser/politician than the average GOP - in Barbour league for example. So I am not inclined to give him much credit for good behavior here. And we know from past comments that ROMAD's view of good leadership is anything that advances the GOP and hurts the dems - its all about the party. But on the list of problems to be fixed in the gulf - today - this strikes me as at worst an annoyance and far from one of the top concerns.
    obnoxious
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    The Maxim Gun, and they have not.

  2. #522
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    Quote Originally Posted by ROMAD1 View Post
    obnoxious
    Oh come on....just relax a bit. You and I would have no problem exchanging gop for democrats and your name for couga to rewrite his statement. It's just his belief.
    VT

  3. #523
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    on the billms-obnoxious-meter that one seemed to rate about a 3 on the 10 point scale i thought
    What, me worry?

  4. #524
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    Quote Originally Posted by billms View Post
    on the billms-obnoxious-meter that one seemed to rate about a 3 on the 10 point scale i thought
    I'm with ya.... seems like i'm agreeing with you a little too much lately too....not liking this, not one bit!
    Last edited by ewsieg; 06-19-2010 at 10:09 AM.
    VT

  5. #525
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    thanks for the apology
    'Whatever happens, we have got
    The Maxim Gun, and they have not.

  6. #526
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    Where is Matt when I need him?
    What, me worry?

  7. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by billms View Post
    on the billms-obnoxious-meter that one seemed to rate about a 3 on the 10 point scale i thought
    You need to try harder.

    I can give tips...

  8. #528
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    Facts Garbled As U.S. Tries To Take Charge Of Spill : NPR

    The head of the federal oil-spill response announced in a press conference Tuesday that a ship called the Development Driller II has now bored down 9,000 feet below the seafloor in its efforts to create a relief well. Coast Guard Adm. Thad Allen said the drilling ship should be able to tap into the ruptured well in three to four weeks — that would be mid-July — a month ahead of schedule.

    Unfortunately, none of these statements appears to be true.

    National Incident Commander Thad Allen has trouble keeping his facts straight. He comes across great on TV. He's poised, polished, authoritative in his Coast Guard uniform. But ever since the federal government told BP it was no longer welcome at the official news conferences, the admiral has had to stand on his own answering technical questions about BP's operations. This carries the symbolism that the government is in charge. But as a result, facts often end up garbled.

  9. #529
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    Facts are garbled alright. This is getting worse by the day. I don't think we can believe anyone. Some think the relief wells will not work either. Look how many times they have revised the amount of oil leaking. It just keeps going up and up. All we need now is some hurricanes. What a mess.
    The study of money, above all other fields in economics, is one in which complexity is used to disguise truth or to evade truth, not to reveal it - John Kenneth Galbraith

  10. #530
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    Watching the surf deposit oil on our panhandle makes me want to cry. Those are Florida's most beautiful shores to me. Now we have an oil slick 30 miles out and blowing onshore. Whales are diverting to shallow water and within sight of the coast. Thousands are out of work, motels are idle and the world believes all of Florida is like this. The beauracracy controlling the shore cleanup (in an attempt to keep workers safe) has decked them ourt in head to toe long sleeved tyvek coveralls and booties with respirators in 95 degree heat. Yeah, they can last a long time out there.
    Last edited by hueytaxi; 06-20-2010 at 11:27 PM.
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  11. #531
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    As I understand it the industry that has had the hardest hit from the Recession has been Hospitality. So this comes at not such a good time for them either.
    'Whatever happens, we have got
    The Maxim Gun, and they have not.

  12. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by hueytaxi View Post
    Watching the surf deposit oil on our panhandle makes me want to cry. Those are Florida's most beautiful shores to me. Now we have an oil slick 30 miles out and blowing onshore. Whales are diverting to shallow water and within sight of the coast. Thousands are out of work, motels are idle and the world believes all of Florida is like this. The beauracracy controlling the shore cleanup (in an attempt to keep workers safe) has decked them ourt in head to toe long sleeved tyvek coveralls and booties with respirators in 95 degree heat. Yeah, they can last a long time out there.
    "dada's moustache is so awesome" - my 2 and a half year old daughter

  13. #533
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    Quote Originally Posted by ROMAD1 View Post
    The thing that occurred to me about the Jindal/Coast Guard flap was..."this isn't exactly the spirit of Dunkirk"

    For those with poor educations...Dunkirk or Operation Dynamo was the evacuation of British, French and some Belgian forces from the continent of Europe in May/June 1940 that saved the war from ending with the fall of France. It involved the use of every boat that could float on the southern English coast.

    Every resource is not being brought to bear in this circumstance if we are worrying about fire extinguishers.
    I guess someone else had the Dunkirk thought too.

    Obama's thuggery is useless in fighting spill | Washington Examiner

    Or the decision to deny Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal's proposal to deploy barges to skim oil from the Gulf's surface. Can't do that until we see if they've got enough life preservers and fire equipment. That inspired blogger Rand Simberg to write a blog post he dated June 1, 1940: "The evacuation of British and French troops from the besieged French city of Dunkirk was halted today, over concerns that many of the private vessels that had been deployed for the task were unsafe for troop transport."

    Dunkirk Evacuation Delayed For Safety - Transterrestrial Musings (this guy's blog looks pretty weird)
    'Whatever happens, we have got
    The Maxim Gun, and they have not.

  14. #534
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    It is a compelling comparison. And tragic.

    The good news is we can stop *all* the oil spill work today - since just like dunkirk by having a delay everybody would have died. No point in working on it any more - Obama killed them all.

    Oh well - at least we don't have the cleanup to worry about any more - right romad?
    What, me worry?

  15. #535
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    Obama spill panel big on policy, not engineering - Yahoo! News

    The panel appointed by President Barack Obama to investigate the Gulf of Mexico oil spill is short on technical expertise but long on talking publicly about "America's addiction to oil." One member has blogged about it regularly.
    Only one of the seven commissioners, the dean of Harvard's engineering and applied sciences school, has a prominent engineering background — but it's in optics and physics. Another is an environmental scientist with expertise in coastal areas and the after-effects of oil spills. Both are praised by other scientists.
    The five other commissioners are experts in policy and management.
    Sigh.

  16. #536
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    Quote Originally Posted by billms View Post
    It is a compelling comparison. And tragic.

    The good news is we can stop *all* the oil spill work today - since just like dunkirk by having a delay everybody would have died. No point in working on it any more - Obama killed them all.

    Oh well - at least we don't have the cleanup to worry about any more - right romad?
    Your point is lost somewhere in your hysterical defense of Obama.
    'Whatever happens, we have got
    The Maxim Gun, and they have not.

  17. #537
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    Really? Huh. I was actually poking holes in your comparison. You don't know what the word defend means my friend.

    Let me be a bit more concrete since the point has apparently escaped you. In Dunkirk there was a short timeline and if you missed it the soldiers would die. And the time was very very short.

    In the gulf - today - regardless of what happens - this will be going on for months and months and months.

    Thus, your comparison is well of the mark.

    This is not a defense of Obama. Saying you, ROMAD, have made a faulty comparison is not the same as saying the President ***** gold.

    My job here is done.
    Last edited by billms; 06-21-2010 at 12:09 PM.
    What, me worry?

  18. #538
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    If by "job" you mean taking a #2 and leaving it in this forum and ringing the doorbell, then you may be right.

    But you have a poor grasp of history.
    'Whatever happens, we have got
    The Maxim Gun, and they have not.

  19. #539
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    Please correct my error in history sir. Did they actually have 4 months to execute the Dunkirk evacuation? That seems to be what you are implying but can't be right - I wait to be educated by you on the matter.
    What, me worry?

  20. #540
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    Why 4 months? Why is that number stuck in your mind?

    Dunkirk was an emergency response by a nation mobilized as effectively as possible to stave off a catastrophe after a 3 week battle for Belgium, Holland and France.

    The response to this has been disorganized. You would think that with 2 months to execute some response they could have sorted something out by now.

    This is a rally to action Something went wrong. Please make sure you added the video correctly. Click here to see how YouTube videos should be embedded. There could also be a technical issue that's not your fault. Click here to view the video on YouTube's site. If this link doesn't work, you did something wrong.

    and this is not: Something went wrong. Please make sure you added the video correctly. Click here to see how YouTube videos should be embedded. There could also be a technical issue that's not your fault. Click here to view the video on YouTube's site. If this link doesn't work, you did something wrong.
    'Whatever happens, we have got
    The Maxim Gun, and they have not.

  21. #541
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    You failed to identify anything historical that I was not aware of or that contradict what I said. There are other factors that you have failed to mention. Obviously you have a poor grasp of history.

    Why four months? Because that is the most common estimate of how long this spill will be going on - though it does not account for the fact that in the past relief wells have failed initially from time to time in much shallower water so the efforts could go well past august.

    Are you that unfamiliar with the history of this oil spill? I thought you were a history buff...
    What, me worry?

  22. #542
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    "Initial plans called for the recovery of 45,000 men from the British Expeditionary Force within two days, at which time it was expected that German troops would be able to block further evacuation. Only 25,001 men escaped during this period, including 7,001 on the first day.[8] Ten additional destroyers joined the rescue effort on 26 May and attempted rescue operations in the early morning, but were unable to closely approach the beaches, although several thousand were rescued. "

    "Many of the troops were able to embark from the harbour's protective mole onto 42 British destroyers and other large ships, while others had to wade from the beaches toward the ships, waiting for hours to board, shoulder-deep in water."

    Dunkirk evacuation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Personally I think Operation Dynamo was an amazing success. Thats what it was called ROMAD - Operation Dynamo. I remember studying it in a history class. Chilling.

    Anyways - back to the topic at hand - if Jindal and ROMAD had a voice at the time - and were consistent in their analysis of leadership - they would have called for Churchill's head. Unless of course he was a republican.
    What, me worry?

  23. #543
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    So, has Obama brought all his resources to bear...like he says in his first line of the youtube quote above?

    He made the Jimmy Carter mistake of calling for something rhetorically the moral equivalent of war (MEOW) and then not actually having the leadership ability to see it through.

    This oil spill must be pretty gosh darn important.

    Drill into the historical analogy all you like. The people see that this President isn't doing an effective job rallying his resources. Barack Obama is possibly well-suited to serving as an Alderman in Chicago but has yet to prove his metal as a President during wartime.
    'Whatever happens, we have got
    The Maxim Gun, and they have not.

  24. #544
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    Oh, he clearly hasn't brought all of his resources to bear. I didn't watch the clip - didn't seem interesting. He says a lot of wrong stuff - he's a politician. His statement before lifting the oil drilling ban - for example - cited that the oil spills during katrina were not from off shore. That is provably false. Did he not know or not care? Who knows. You obviously expect me to be defending the president despite my previous statements that are critical to his actions and my clear indication that I was disagreeing with your argument not defending the man. Its kinda weird - almost as if you realize that you live in a hyper-partisan world and are just certain that others - or at least me - must also.

    We are not now at war with the oil. There are few things that actually do completely and deeply compare to war - because of the loss of life and emotional investment shared by the country. Almost any statement of equivalence is going to be misguided - though I have not heard what Obama said and you seem to have a penchant for exaggerating and misstating his views and policies. For example, there are many logistical aspects to this gulf effort that *are* comparable to a medium to large scale military effort. But the emotional commitment of the country is not there which is essential for real equivalence.
    What, me worry?

  25. #545
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    The Times has another important piece of the puzzle of "what happened". Here is an excerpt:

    An examination by The New York Times highlights the chasm between the oil industry’s assertions about the reliability of its blowout preventers and a more complex reality. It reveals that the federal agency charged with regulating offshore drilling, the Minerals Management Service, repeatedly declined to act on advice from its own experts on how it could minimize the risk of a blind shear ram failure.

    It also shows that the Obama administration failed to grapple with either the well-known weaknesses of blowout preventers or the sufficiency of the nation’s drilling regulations even as it made plans this spring to expand offshore oil exploration.

    “What happened to all the stakeholders — Congress, environmental groups, industry, the government — all stakeholders involved were lulled into a sense of what has turned out to be false security,” David J. Hayes, the deputy interior secretary, said in an interview.

    Even in one significant instance where the Minerals Management Service did act, it appears to have neglected to enforce a rule that required oil companies to submit proof that their blind shear rams would in fact work.
    MMS wanted this to be a cooperative effort with business - a partnership - and Obama did nothing to change that fundamental view point.

    I found the excerpt and the original article through Crooks and Liars so I'll link through them. It lets me drive a bit more traffic through a good site, give them a hat tip credit, and justification for quoting their conclusion which is right on:

    Shorter version: For eight years, we had conservatives doing what conservatives do -- namely, ignoring regulations, taking businesses at their word and doing everything possible to help them maximize profits at the expense of the public good. But appointing Ken Salazar was highly unlikely to reverse that trend.
    Times: MMS Failed To Act On Warnings About Inadequate Failsafe Device | Crooks and Liars
    What, me worry?

  26. #546
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    AFP: White House mocks BP CEO's yacht race, defends Obama golf

    Why is this the French AFP and not say, AP or MSNBC?

    Because we have intellectually dishonest people filtering the news for us and trying to protect the President and his minions.
    'Whatever happens, we have got
    The Maxim Gun, and they have not.

  27. #547
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    AFP had it six hours ago. The Washington Post had it six hours ago. And its a dumb story.

    So there - you got your wish - the pres here *are* covering dumb stories for you.
    What, me worry?

  28. #548
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    I don't know why anyone listens to any media.
    The study of money, above all other fields in economics, is one in which complexity is used to disguise truth or to evade truth, not to reveal it - John Kenneth Galbraith

  29. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by ROMAD1 View Post
    AFP: White House mocks BP CEO's yacht race, defends Obama golf

    Why is this the French AFP and not say, AP or MSNBC?

    Because we have intellectually dishonest people filtering the news for us and trying to protect the President and his minions.
    lol. Don't worry, the "liberal" media will report what Drudge tells them to, just as you desire

  30. #550
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    Naturally...the toadys on Fox are just as bad.
    'Whatever happens, we have got
    The Maxim Gun, and they have not.

  31. #551
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    Quote Originally Posted by ROMAD1 View Post
    AFP: White House mocks BP CEO's yacht race, defends Obama golf

    Why is this the French AFP and not say, AP or MSNBC?

    Because we have intellectually dishonest people filtering the news for us and trying to protect the President and his minions.
    Yes, the media is trying to protect the president.

    I must go clean the soda from my jaguar now.
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  32. #552
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    Feds put a stop to berm-building dredging off Louisiana

    The federal government is shutting down the dredging that was being done to create protective sand berms in the Gulf of Mexico.

    The berms are meant to protect the Louisiana coastline from oil. But the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Department has concerns about where the dredging is being done.

    Plaquemines Parish President Billy Nungesser, who was one of the most vocal advocates of the dredging plan, has sent a letter to President Barack Obama, pleading for the work to continue.

    Nungesser said the government has asked crews to move the dredging site two more miles farther off the coastline.

    "Once again, our government resource agencies, which are intended to protect us, are now leaving us vulnerable to the destruction of our coastline and marshes by the impending oil," Nungesser wrote to Obama. "Furthermore, with the threat of hurricanes or tropical storms, we are being put at an increased risk for devastation to our area from the intrusion of oil.

    Nungesser has asked for the dredging to continue for the next seven days, the amount of time it would take to move the dredging operations two miles and out resume work.

    Work is scheduled to halt at midnight Wednesday.

    The California dredge located off the Chandelier Islands has pumped more than 50,000 cubic yards of material daily to create a sand berm, according to Plaquemines Parish officials.

    Nungesser's letter includes an emotional plea to the president.

    "Please don't let them shut this dredge down," he wrote. "This requires your immediate attention!"
    Federal Gov't Halts Sand Berm Dredging - New Orleans News Story - WDSU New Orleans

    I guess 64 days isn't enough for Fish & Wildlife to chime in. Good thing there isn't an emergency.
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  33. #553
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    It sounds like they *did* chime in.
    What, me worry?

  34. #554
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    Quote Originally Posted by billms View Post
    It sounds like they *did* chime in.
    Sure, they chimed in with "we're not sure where to dredge." Which is worse than useless since it stops building the berms to protect LA's wetland areas and God knows when they'll finally come up with a place where the berms should be built. Maybe in another 64 days?
    2012 Adopted Tiger -- RHP Luis Marte

  35. #555
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    Not to mention that this is a race against time because the normal hurricane season in the Gulf starts on June 1st.

    There should have been at least some sort of contingency plan in place within a couple of weeks of the spill at the outside.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: While Obama is looking for some [backside] to kick, he needs to be looking within his administration.

  36. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark The Shark View Post
    Sure, they chimed in with "we're not sure where to dredge." Which is worse than useless since it stops building the berms to protect LA's wetland areas and God knows when they'll finally come up with a place where the berms should be built. Maybe in another 64 days?
    actually it said that they have concerns - maybe they know exactly where to dredge and said it two months ago and are concerned that their advice isn't being taken - the story hardly makes that clear
    What, me worry?

  37. #557
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    BP's containment cap over well removed

    (CNN) -- BP's containment cap over a ruptured Gulf of Mexico well was removed Wednesday after a robotic vehicle apparently bumped into a cap vent and closed it, raising the possibility of hydrates forming, said Coast Guard Adm. Thad Allen, the government's response manager.
    Allen also said that two oil recovery workers in the Gulf of Mexico have died. One died in a swimming accident; the other was an operator of a boat, he said.
    Also Wednesday, the embattled oil giant tapped its managing director to lead a new and permanent oil disaster organization in the Gulf.
    Dudley was appointed president and chief executive officer of BP's Gulf Coast Restoration Organization, BP said in a statement.
    more at link: BP's containment cap over well removed - CNN.com

    more corporate efficiency!!!
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  38. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfife View Post
    more at link: BP's containment cap over well removed - CNN.com

    more corporate efficiency!!!
    This has been an almost amazing instance of a public-private cluster-beep.
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  39. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark The Shark View Post
    This has been an almost amazing instance of a public-private cluster-beep.
    it sure has man
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  40. #560
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    no one could have imagined a series of ****ups like this
    What, me worry?

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