Because I'm wondering what the result were if anyone ever was engaged in, or witnessed such a scene, and if so, what were the results.
On a side note, what would be people's honest expectations. Me? My expectations are that someone who is not displaying control with a police officer is likely in a mental state where he might do harm to others, or even himself. If I witnessed anything like that - I'd expect the person who was out of control with a police officer, even verbally to the extent that Gates was, to be arrested. Not necessarily prosecuted - but arrested. Gates challenges authority. Something tells me that if one of Gates' students behaved that way in his class, or out in the hallway - he'd expect campus police to take them away.
I think it's reasonable for one to think that they might be arrested if they verbally challenge a police officer. That's because we've been conditioned to think that way, even though no law is being broken. However, just because you would expect to be arrested doesn't mean you SHOULD be arrested. It might mean that certain police officers throw their authority around in response to their bruised egos.
__________________ "All the meek inherit is the doom of their genetic code..." -- Stuart Davis
MrDeeds, thanks for posting this. To make it easier for people to hear/see this, I'm reposting using the YouTube embedding feature:
I think if there were a video going around of CNN interviewing Gates' colleagues at Harvard expressing unwavering support for his behavior, it would do little to sway the opinion of those who think he's entirely at fault.
__________________ "All the meek inherit is the doom of their genetic code..." -- Stuart Davis
I think if there were a video going around of CNN interviewing Gates' colleagues at Harvard expressing unwavering support for his behavior, it would do little to sway the opinion of those who think he's entirely at fault.
count me among the underwhelmed also. a bunch of fellow officers who weren't there defending their guy? my god, what's next? tigers fans booing the opposing manager when he argues with the umpire?
I think it's reasonable for one to think that they might be arrested if they verbally challenge a police officer. That's because we've been conditioned to think that way, even though no law is being broken. However, just because you would expect to be arrested doesn't mean you SHOULD be arrested. It might mean that certain police officers throw their authority around in response to their bruised egos.
It also means that it's not a racial incident, which is what Gates has been pushing the whole time.
If people want to make the argument that he shouldn't have been arrested for talking back or not following an officer's directions, once it was established he was the owner, fine, that's an arguable point. What is not an arguable point is that this thing had racial overtones. Gates has nothing to "teach" Mr. Crowley. (insert Randy Rhoads riff)
I think it's reasonable for one to think that they might be arrested if they verbally challenge a police officer. That's because we've been conditioned to think that way, even though no law is being broken. However, just because you would expect to be arrested doesn't mean you SHOULD be arrested. It might mean that certain police officers throw their authority around in response to their bruised egos.
Exactly. As I suggested before - its reasonable to think if you verbally challenge an armed gang member he'll bust a cap in your ***. But ...
I think it's reasonable for one to think that they might be arrested if they verbally challenge a police officer. That's because we've been conditioned to think that way, even though no law is being broken. However, just because you would expect to be arrested doesn't mean you SHOULD be arrested. It might mean that certain police officers throw their authority around in response to their bruised egos.
Well, I guess this is where we disagree. I think if you are OUTSIDE your house (and sometimes even inside), you need to show the police the respect they deserve. Gates wasn't being physically accosted. He wasn't being treated any differently than anyone - white or black - would have been treated. And that's probably what really pissed Gates off and started the whole "Do you know who I am??" attitude he put on display - first inside, and then later for all to see in an obscene and loud and non-stop manner. Personally, I'd want a jerk like that removed. From a courthouse, from a classroom, from a public diner, from a bar, from my neighborhood. My expectations are that the police are there to maintain ORDER. When order is not maintained (and people are disorderly), being arrested is expected. And I don't care how old or young the person is. If order is not maintained, and the example set out in public is that you can scream at cops and call them racists - how in the hell are they going to maintain order the next time? Exactly when does the line get crossed?
I find it interesting that every single solitary officer, black and white, support Crowley. If Crowley was such a monster, and had race issues, I'm sure his black colleagues wouldn't be so emotionally backing him up. Look at that film clip. If any of them thought for one second he was a racist cop - it would have come out by now. And Gates is an even bigger ******* going around calling Crowley a "rouge cop". And Obama weighing in on a local police matter because he was friends with Gates was absurd. He's done nothing to positively move forward race relations with his news conference comments.
I have a real issue with people calling people racists when it doesn't exist - because it happened to me. Back in the 90's I worked with almost an entirely African American staff. The good workers and I got along great. I also had to terminate some. Never was racism brought up. Until one day my Supervisor was on site - and an Arab American manager of mine was being disciplined for leaving the site with company funds and not directly going to deposit them. Instead, he went shopping and got into an auto accident, on company time. While being talked to by both of us - he stood up - called us racists - and quit. Next thing you know, he calls HR, files a complaint saying not only did my Sup and I FIRE him, but that I have continually blocked him from practicing his religious beliefs, interfering with his Ramadan celebrations and fasting times by deliberately scheduling him on Fridays and for shifts that made his fasting the most difficult. This ******** required a hearing before the EEOC, where I provided schedules and documentation showing this guy was a complete liar. When the judge asked him, this idiot couldn't even tell him the dates of Ramadan or other religious holidays. I and my boss were completely exonerated. But in addition to having to be dragged to an EEOC hearing, lawyers interviewed ever single solitary employee - again - most black - to determine if I ever did anything as much as tell on off-color joke. I was touched to find out that when asked about me being a racist - several of them actually laughed out loud at that prospect, and completely backed me - even some who I had previously had to discipline. The lawyers said they loved slam dunk cases like this. I said - that's great you love it - but my reputation is still damaged because I have to defend myself against lies - and no matter what - some of my colleagues may never look at me quite the same again - all because I had the racial accusation gun pointed and shot at my direction.
Gates stood out there and screaming and calling that cop a racist for responding to a possible burglary at his house and verifying that Gates was the owner. He wouldn't shut his mouth. I'd have thrown his dumb *** in jail too.
It also means that it's not a racial incident, which is what Gates has been pushing the whole time.
If people want to make the argument that he shouldn't have been arrested for talking back or not following an officer's directions, once it was established he was the owner, fine, that's an arguable point. What is not an arguable point is that this thing had racial overtones. Gates has nothing to "teach" Mr. Crowley. (insert Randy Rhoads riff)
I don't think Gates cites the arrest as the racial flashpoint. He felt profiled, and that's why he confronted the officer, which then led to the arrest.
So I'm not sure you point is clear.
__________________ "All the meek inherit is the doom of their genetic code..." -- Stuart Davis
If people want to make the argument that he shouldn't have been arrested for talking back or not following an officer's directions, once it was established he was the owner, fine, that's an arguable point. What is not an arguable point is that this thing had racial overtones. Gates has nothing to "teach" Mr. Crowley. (insert Randy Rhoads riff)
From what I've read I think thats right. It was not unreasonable for Gates to think it is racist. That doesn't mean I think he's right.
But more importantly - why the hell would you listen to Randy Rhoads? My god that woman is offensive on so many different levels.
It's becoming pretty obvious to me that there was no racial profiling done here by Crowley. Gates got the wrong narrative in his head from the word go and seems to have completely overreacted. Crowley would have been better off not arresting him, but I can't blame him when Gates is apparently acting like a fool. That's just human nature, and I'm sure they are trained to demand respect as that helps them handle more tense and dangerous situations. That said, there's no way you prosecute Gates either for basically yelling at someone from his home. And wtf was Obama doing when he spoke about this?
I have a real issue with people calling people racists when it doesn't exist - because it happened to me. Back in the 90's I worked with almost an entirely African American staff. The good workers and I got along great. I also had to terminate some. Never was racism brought up. Until one day my Supervisor was on site - and an Arab American manager of mine was being disciplined for leaving the site with company funds and not directly going to deposit them. Instead, he went shopping and got into an auto accident, on company time. While being talked to by both of us - he stood up - called us racists - and quit. Next thing you know, he calls HR, files a complaint saying not only did my Sup and I FIRE him, but that I have continually blocked him from practicing his religious beliefs, interfering with his Ramadan celebrations and fasting times by deliberately scheduling him on Fridays and for shifts that made his fasting the most difficult. This ******** required a hearing before the EEOC, where I provided schedules and documentation showing this guy was a complete liar. When the judge asked him, this idiot couldn't even tell him the dates of Ramadan or other religious holidays. I and my boss were completely exonerated. But in addition to having to be dragged to an EEOC hearing, lawyers interviewed ever single solitary employee - again - most black - to determine if I ever did anything as much as tell on off-color joke. I was touched to find out that when asked about me being a racist - several of them actually laughed out loud at that prospect, and completely backed me - even some who I had previously had to discipline. The lawyers said they loved slam dunk cases like this. I said - that's great you love it - but my reputation is still damaged because I have to defend myself against lies - and no matter what - some of my colleagues may never look at me quite the same again - all because I had the racial accusation gun pointed and shot at my direction.
Well, now it needs to come out.
Couga, pfife, Buddha and I are all african american arabs who are bad workers. Thats what we have in common. We've been keeping hard working white people like John down all this time and I'm just ashamed of it.
It's becoming pretty obvious to me that there was no racial profiling done here by Crowley. Gates got the wrong narrative in his head from the word go and seems to have completely overreacted. Crowley would have been better off not arresting him, but I can't blame him when Gates is apparently acting like a fool. That's just human nature, and I'm sure they are trained to demand respect as that helps them handle more tense and dangerous situations. That said, there's no way you prosecute Gates either for basically yelling at someone from his home. And wtf was Obama doing when he spoke about this?
Well, I guess this is where we disagree. I think if you are OUTSIDE your house (and sometimes even inside), you need to show the police the respect they deserve. Gates wasn't being physically accosted. He wasn't being treated any differently than anyone - white or black - would have been treated. And that's probably what really pissed Gates off and started the whole "Do you know who I am??" attitude he put on display - first inside, and then later for all to see in an obscene and loud and non-stop manner. Personally, I'd want a jerk like that removed. From a courthouse, from a classroom, from a public diner, from a bar, from my neighborhood. My expectations are that the police are there to maintain ORDER. When order is not maintained (and people are disorderly), being arrested is expected. And I don't care how old or young the person is. If order is not maintained, and the example set out in public is that you can scream at cops and call them mother ****ers and racists - how in the hell are they going to maintain order the next time? Exactly when does the line get crossed?
This is where we disagree. I disagree that you've figured out the exact actions that were taken during the incident, by either party. You've made assumptions that the cop never made any racially charged comments, because you want to believe the police. That's your prerogative. That doesn't make it right, because this will always remain a he-said he-said incident. You and I will never know exactly how it went down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJMS
I find it interesting that every single solitary officer, black and white, support Crowley. If Crowley was such a monster, and had race issues, I'm sure his black colleagues wouldn't be so emotionally backing him up. Look at that film clip. If any of them thought for one second he was a racist cop - it would have come out by now. And Gates is an even bigger ******* going around calling Crowley a "rouge cop". And Obama weighing in on a local police matter because he was friends with Gates was absurd. He's done nothing to positively move forward race relations with his news conference comments.?
Every single solitary office IN THAT CLIP supported Crowley. If any officer didn't support him, he or she would be unlikely to voice that dissent, for fear of some kind of retribution. Now before you jump on me, I'm not saying there are dissenters, I'm saying neither you nor I know whether there are any.
Plus, just because a black cop sides with a white cop doesn't automatically cancel out the possibility of racial profiling. There are plenty of white people who think Gates was profiled. That doesn't make it true or untrue either way.
I agree that Obama should have kept his mouth shut.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJMS
I have a real issue with people calling people racists when it doesn't exist - because it happened to me.
So do I. And John, I disagree with you on a lot of issues, but I definitely don't think you're a racist. Sorry you were put through that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJMS
Gates stood out there and screaming and calling that cop a mother ****ing racist for responding to a possible burglary at his house and verifying that Gates was the owner. He wouldn't shut his mouth. I'd have thrown his dumb *** in jail too.
You keep saying that Gates said MFer. I don't recall that from the story. I remember the "your mama" comment, but not that. Do you remember where that was reported?
__________________ "All the meek inherit is the doom of their genetic code..." -- Stuart Davis
1) if gates showed crowley id proving he was a legal resident of the house, and crowley insisted on further questioning, then i support gates in his anger and claims of profiling.
2) if gates refused to show id and immediately launched into his racial tirade when the first question was asked by crowley, then i don't support gates in his anger and claims of racial profiling.
either way, if all we had was gates yelling at crowley in his house or on his porch, then i don't support the arrest. i don't care what led up to the yelling. it's yelling. arresting him was overkill. maybe even a little showboating by the officer.
the problem is, we have two credible men telling two very different stories. seems to me that who you choose to believe depends on a lot of things - including politics, personal experiences, etc.
You keep saying that Gates said MFer. I don't recall that from the story. I remember the "your mama" comment, but not that. Do you remember where that was reported?
My mistake. I had read in multiple new reports that Gates had "brought Crowley's mother's heritage" into it. I assumed, incorrectly, that the paper was politely referring to the term MFers, which obviously cannot be printed in newspapers. Again, my mistake. I acknowledge this after reading the entire police report and will go back and edit my references to this particular point.
My mistake. I had read in multiple new reports that Gates had "brought Crowley's mother's heritage" into it. I assumed, incorrectly, that the paper was politely referring to the term MFers, which obviously cannot be printed in newspapers. Again, my mistake. I acknowledge this after reading the entire police report and will go back and edit my references to this particular point.
No problem. There's a lot of info being thrown around, and it gets confusing.
Even if he didn't say it, I'll concede that he threw some pretty disrespectful invective out there.
__________________ "All the meek inherit is the doom of their genetic code..." -- Stuart Davis
Can anyone here state that they have themselves yelled repeatedly at a cop, calling him names, refusing instructions and continuing to yell at him out in public after being told to calm down, and NOT be arrested? Can anyone here say they have ever witnessed such an event?
I've yelled at cops before and not been arrested. I told them to let me see my ****ing client and later to stop ****ing talking to my client when I'm not around.
Of course, I'm an attorney and cops are generally intimidated by attorneys. They know they can't bully us.
__________________
Berlin Wall: What they told us about communism was a lie, sadly, what they told us about capitalism was true.
Rosa Parks really was just being stupid - if she had gone along with what she was told to do and not made a fuss she never would have gone to jail at all.
And don't get me *started* on that punk *** Mandela.
Gates even looks like more of a dumb***** when he says "My key didn't fit my door properly because of a recent breakin"
So Gates had his home broken in recently and yet is angry when the cops come to check when it is reported his home is being broken into?
__________________
"Clete Thomas always has a crazy look on his face. His eyes are just huge. He looks like at any minute he could snap and kill a guy..... or hit a baseball 422 feet" ...ScrubBeaterUpper
Rosa Parks really was just being stupid - if she had gone along with what she was told to do and not made a fuss she never would have gone to jail at all.
And don't get me *started* on that punk *** Mandela.
What freedom was Gates fighting for? The freedom to be an *** hole to the cops? The freedom to berate the cop for doing his job. Great examples.
You guys are right. The officer shouldn't have arrested him. Instead, he should have reported the incident, gathered statements, and sued Gates's ******* for defamation of character.
What freedom was Gates fighting for? The freedom to be an *** hole to the cops? The freedom to berate the cop for doing his job. Great examples.
You guys are right. The officer shouldn't have arrested him. Instead, he should have reported the incident, gathered statements, and sued Gates's ******* for defamation of character.
Or he could have just gotten a thicker skin, be the adult in the scenario, and walked away.
And it's true, Gates is no Parks or Mandela. And no one is painting him as such.
__________________ "All the meek inherit is the doom of their genetic code..." -- Stuart Davis
And it's true, Gates is no Parks or Mandela. And no one is painting him as such.
Quote:
Originally Posted by billms
Rosa Parks really was just being stupid - if she had gone along with what she was told to do and not made a fuss she never would have gone to jail at all.
And don't get me *started* on that punk *** Mandela.
????
To go into a different direction, have you noticed how this has basically become a conservative vs. liberal argument? Those who lean liberal are with Gates, and those who lean conservative are with the police officer. I think this is reflection of how things have changed now that Bush is gone and Obama is in power. Obama stands up for a friend, and the right are going on full attack mode that a sitting president would do such a thing. If Bush had a friend that he felt had been wronged, and made a statement criticizing the handling of the case, before he knew the facts behind it, the left would have done the same thing IMO. I mean there was plenty of criticism from the left about Bush's "cronies". Either way, it just feels like a red vs. blue fight. Maybe I'm wrong there.
I don't know how this is all going to work out, but it is a shame that this incident is going to stifle the discussion about health reform. It may also impact the good things in race relations that have happened since Obama has been elected! Hopefully it dies here in the next week or so.
I made a statement about parks - and by extension mandela. Do you disagree? Because I think it is relevant to some of the arguments put forth here. That is a far cry from equating gates with them.
i wonder how those guys told the story before the video came out?
Does that make all cops bad? If so, I remember reading about a professor murdering someone once, we should lock Gates up for good before he does the same. I don't remember anyone arguing that all cops were innocent of everything. Crowley just isn't guilty of being a racist. The next guy might be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by billms
Rosa Parks really was just being stupid - if she had gone along with what she was told to do and not made a fuss she never would have gone to jail at all.
And don't get me *started* on that punk *** Mandela.
I don't really understand how you are relating these incidents. They are totally unrelated in my opinion.
Rosa Parks wasn't being stupid, she had a good point. Gates did not. If Gates was acting like a fool, like he was the other day, I wouldn't even let him on the bus at all. That isn't because I'm racist, it's because I don't like dealing with **** from morons like him. If he had acted in a normal, respectful manner and been arrested, he would have a great case. He got arrested because he was being disrespectful, not because he was black like he tried to spin it as.
I'm making the point - with two well known examples - that just because shutting up and respecting the cops will make things easier on you does not mean it is the right thing to do.
I'm making the point - with two well known examples - that just because shutting up and respecting the cops will make things easier on you does not mean it is the right thing to do.
I agree it might not be the case in 100% of all incidents, but in this case it was the right thing to do and that is why I don't think the two should be related. Gates was wrong in this case and Parks was not wrong in hers. Apples and oranges. One helps the cause, and one hurts the cause.
I think if there were a video going around of CNN interviewing Gates' colleagues at Harvard expressing unwavering support for his behavior, it would do little to sway the opinion of those who think he's entirely at fault.
It also means that it's not a racial incident, which is what Gates has been pushing the whole time.
If people want to make the argument that he shouldn't have been arrested for talking back or not following an officer's directions, once it was established he was the owner, fine, that's an arguable point. What is not an arguable point is that this thing had racial overtones. Gates has nothing to "teach" Mr. Crowley. (insert Randy Rhoads riff)
BINGO.
I can't believe people are still defending this guy. He is still talking about how this is a teachable event and has not step down from his assertions that Crowley is a racist, rogue cop acting on racial tendencies.
I don't think Gates cites the arrest as the racial flashpoint. He felt profiled, and that's why he confronted the officer, which then led to the arrest.
So I'm not sure you point is clear.
Dude, youtube Dr. Gates. He has done countless interviews in which he has expressed his belief that Sgt. Crowley was acting as a rogue cop arresting Gates for the sole reason of being black. For Chrissakes, he is still *considering legal action against Crowley.
I made a statement about parks - and by extension mandela. Do you disagree? Because I think it is relevant to some of the arguments put forth here. That is a far cry from equating gates with them.
I assumed it was pure sarcasm.
__________________ "All the meek inherit is the doom of their genetic code..." -- Stuart Davis
I think if there were a video going around of CNN interviewing Gates' colleagues at Harvard expressing unwavering support for his behavior, it would do little to sway the opinion of those who think he's entirely at fault.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDeeds
Not even close.
Gates' colleagues were not at the scene.
I said "IF." My point is not that there was such a video, just that the existence of such a video wouldn't be effective in changing the minds of people who felt Gates was wrong.
And not all of those officers (if any) in the video were at the scene either.
__________________ "All the meek inherit is the doom of their genetic code..." -- Stuart Davis
I said "IF." My point is not that there was such a video, just that the existence of such a video wouldn't be effective in changing the minds of people who felt Gates was wrong.
And not all of those officers (if any) in the video were at the scene either.
Several of the officers were at the scene, including the black officer who spoke first in the youtube. No Harvard colleagues were at the scene.
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