Henry Louis Gates Arrest Reports

[Oblong]

Originally Posted by sinister porpoise

Gates did not say that the police responding to the call was evidence of racism.

You are only embarassing yourself in going to such great lengths to defend this guy.

On a side note, I think anybody who pulls the "Do you know who I am" card should always be immediately hauled in to th station, just out of principle alone.

[smr-nj]

Originally Posted by Oblong

On a side note, I think anybody who pulls the "Do you know who I am" card should always be immediately hauled in to th station, just out of principle alone.

Agreed.
Hauled in and then have the soles of their feet beat.

[holygoat]

I have to admit, the more Gates says -- and he seems to be reveling in this -- the more it seems like he purposely antagonized Sgt. Crowley in hopes of getting arrested. I really want to hear those tapes, though.

[Oblong]

Gates is an arrogant SOB who didn't think it was right for this young white man to be talking to him that way and his feelings and pride were hurt. So he did what any tenured college professor would do to one of his students.

[Buddha]

Originally Posted by Melody

Honorary degrees? Those aren't political? hahahahaha You don't even need an elementary school education to get one of those, only be a high profile person that the college wants to honor and associate their name with.

Besides, I wasn't disputing whether he's well educated or even well regarded for his expertise. It isn't even proof that his opinions even writings are indisputable. My point was that this isn't proof that he's not an arrogant jerk and perfectly capable of getting snotty and obnoxious, or even misrepresenting what transpired in a dispute which landed him at the police station. In fact, as I noted, my observation has been that many of these guys are among the most obnoxious people you might encounter.

You weren't? Sure you were:

Originally Posted by melody

Oh, please. In some quarters, Ward Churchill was considered "accomplished" etc., etc. I used to work for a seminary and had contact with a big bunch of "accomplished academic professors" from various schools, all of whom were considered having achieved expertise. About 9/10 of them were morons and they frequently said as much about each other. What I know is that these universities (secular or religious) and tenure is more about politics than truth.

The guy's a tenured Harvard professor, they don't hand those out in cracker jack boxes.

[Buddha]

The police have no reason to arrest a little old man with a cane who got upset that they accused him of breaking into his own house. Disturbing the peace? Seriously?

Was Gates too belligerent? Probably. Should they have arrested him for it? No. Give me a break, what was the danger to society of this little old man yelling on his porch? Nothing.

It's a complete abuse of authority by a police officer.

How come all the people who complain about the government intruding too much into the lives of individuals, or complain about how the government is overstepping its bounds by intruding on their rights to do what they want in their homes are the same ones who think the police are justified in coming into this guy's house and then arresting him on his porch?

[ewsieg]

Originally Posted by Buddha

How come all the people who complain about the government intruding too much into the lives of individuals, or complain about how the government is overstepping its bounds by intruding on their rights to do what they want in their homes are the same ones who think the police are justified in coming into this guy's house and then arresting him on his porch?

Because those of us that tend to complain about gov't intrusion are also the ones that think there should be some personal responsibility with people.

And per Gates' own lawyers, he would have been arrested immediately if he simply left the inside of his house. So if it's so clear to Gate's lawyers that simply speaking to a cop when you've done nothing wrong and are unaware of any trouble, why is it so clear to some of us non-lawyers, that being disrespectful AND not listening to a cop might get you arrested?

(note: I understand that what Gates did is still unknown, but my above response is for those that think you should be able to talk to a cop anyway you damn well please)

[Oblong]

Originally Posted by Buddha

The police have no reason to arrest a little old man with a cane who got upset that they accused him of breaking into his own house. Disturbing the peace? Seriously?

Was Gates too belligerent? Probably. Should they have arrested him for it? No. Give me a break, what was the danger to society of this little old man yelling on his porch? Nothing.

It's a complete abuse of authority by a police officer.

?

If that was the argument being put forth then you'd have a point. But Gates made this a racial thing.

If there' a situation and the cops ask you to do something and you do not, they will turn around and harass you back, by taking you downtown in cuffs in front of your neighbors.

[Ingefanclub]

Originally Posted by Buddha

Was Gates too belligerent? Probably. Should they have arrested him for it? No. Give me a break, what was the danger to society of this little old man yelling on his porch? Nothing.

It's a complete abuse of authority by a police officer.

I agree the cops should have just fined him $200 for disturbing the public. Gates got off easy as now he is getting the publicity he so deperately desired.

[Buddha]

Originally Posted by ewsieg

Because those of us that tend to complain about gov't intrusion are also the ones that think there should be some personal responsibility with people.

And per Gates' own lawyers, he would have been arrested immediately if he simply left the inside of his house. So if it's so clear to Gate's lawyers that simply speaking to a cop when you've done nothing wrong and are unaware of any trouble, why is it so clear to some of us non-lawyers, that being disrespectful AND not listening to a cop might get you arrested?

(note: I understand that what Gates did is still unknown, but my above response is for those that think you should be able to talk to a cop anyway you damn well please)

What about the cops' personal responsibility? If anything, the cop has MORE rsponsibility than Gates because he has more power and authority.

I would expect an officer who has supposedly been actively engaged in a campaign against racial profiling would be more sensitive to the situation. That's not to say this was a case of racial profiling, but rather that the officer would know that it might appear to be so to someone like Gates. Instead, he arrested the old man when he got upset. To me, that's an abuse of authority.

IMO, the officer overreacted. So did Gates. But the officer has more authority and responsibility to not overreact given his position. And his overreactions carry much more weight than Gates, he took away someone's liberty, all Gates did was yell. Big difference.

[LineCrosser]

Originally Posted by Oblong

You are only embarassing yourself in going to such great lengths to defend this guy.

All of us that are staunchly supporting either side are embarrassing ourselves. None of us were there, and anyone who defends one side only is only relying on that side's (probably slanted) version of the incident.

Holygoat is right. The only way this MIGHT be resolved on one side or the other is if they release the tapes, AND then only if the tapes contain indisputable evidence of what happened. Otherwise, it will forever remain he-said he-said, and we're all just displaying our bluster to promote our own beliefs on racial profiling/abuse of power/crying wolf/friends in high places/"I think he's on meds" crap.

On a side note, I think anybody who pulls the "Do you know who I am" card should always be immediately hauled in to th station, just out of principle alone.

I assume this is a joke. If it's not, it's an attitude like this that contributes to some cops feeling invincible and abusing the power they're given. Acceptance from society can eventually create a police state.

[Oblong]

Gates wanted to be arrested. That was his goal.

[Oblong]

Originally Posted by LineCrosser

I assume this is a joke. If it's not, it's an attitude like this that contributes to some cops feeling invincible and abusing the power they're given. Acceptance from society can eventually create a police state.

It is absolutely not a joke. It's attitudes like that which gives celebrities and "status" people the idea that they shoudl be treated in a different way from an average joe. Makes no difference if Gates is a Harvard professor who is friends with the POTUS or whether he's an unemployed ex con.

[JohnJMS]

Originally Posted by Buddha

IMO, the officer overreacted. So did Gates. But the officer has more authority and responsibility to not overreact given his position. And his overreactions carry much more weight than Gates, he took away someone's liberty, all Gates did was yell. Big difference.

Took away his Liberty? You make it sound like he lost something he can't get back. Gates lost his temper. Any MORON knows if you stand there and yell at a cop (reportedly using the term 'mother ****er'), you stand a good shot of going to jail. If you and others don't get that - than you can learn the lesson the same way Gates did. Me? I understand if I call scream at a cop and call him a mother****er - I'm going to jail. Maybe Gates isn't all that bright - despite being a Harvard guy.

[LineCrosser]

Originally Posted by Oblong

It is absolutely not a joke. It's attitudes like that which gives celebrities and "status" people the idea that they shoudl be treated in a different way from an average joe. Makes no difference if Gates is a Harvard professor who is friends with the POTUS or whether he's an unemployed ex con.

I don't like people with elitist attitudes either. But it's not illegal to be elitist. Nor should it be illegal to say to someone "do you know who I am?" And any cop who does what you're advocating here (again, I hope it's in jest) would be partaking in a SERIOUS abuse of power.

Originally Posted by JohnJMS

Took away his Liberty? You make it sound like he lost something he can't get back. Gates lost his temper. Any MORON knows if you stand there and yell at a cop (reportedly using the term 'mother ****er'), you stand a good shot of going to jail. If you and others don't get that - than you can learn the lesson the same way Gates did. Me? I understand if I call scream at a cop and call him a mother****er - I'm going to jail. Maybe Gates isn't all that bright - despite being a Harvard guy.

I wouldn't yell at a cop either, and if I brought his mother into a heated conversation, I would fully expect to be arrested. I would fully expect that because I know that many cops would react in a way that would be abusive of their position. So I agree that if you confront a cop (verbally, not physically), you should know what to expect. I just don't think cops have or should have a right to arrest someone for that reason.

[Buddha]

Originally Posted by JohnJMS

Took away his Liberty? You make it sound like he lost something he can't get back. Gates lost his temper. Any MORON knows if you stand there and yell at a cop (reportedly using the term 'mother ****er'), you stand a good shot of going to jail. If you and others don't get that - than you can learn the lesson the same way Gates did. Me? I understand if I call scream at a cop and call him a mother****er - I'm going to jail. Maybe Gates isn't all that bright - despite being a Harvard guy.

Yes, handcuffing someone and throwing them in jail is taking away their liberty. Whether he can get bailed out is of no consequence.

The police should exercise their power judiciously, and in this instance, I don't believe they did so.

[Buddha]

Originally Posted by Oblong

On a side note, I think anybody who pulls the "Do you know who I am" card should always be immediately hauled in to th station, just out of principle alone.

Since they were asking him if he lived there, wouldn't "do you know who I am" be an appropriate response?

[JohnJMS]

Originally Posted by LineCrosser

I wouldn't yell at a cop either, and if I brought his mother into a heated conversation, I would fully expect to be arrested. I would fully expect that because I know that many cops would react in a way that would be abusive of their position. So I agree that if you confront a cop (verbally, not physically), you should know what to expect. I just don't think cops have or should have a right to arrest someone for that reason.

I expect they should be arrested, same as I would expect someone yelling at a judge in a courtroom or an attorney in a courtroom and calling them an MFer, they should be arrested to - and they would be. They are all officers of the law. Respect is demanded and expected to all officers of the law. If you don't behave in a civilized manner, you are temporarily removed from civilization.

[pfife]

Originally Posted by JohnJMS

I expect they should be arrested, same as I would expect someone yelling at a judge in a courtroom or an attorney in a courtroom and calling them an MFer, they should be arrested to - and they would be. They are all officers of the law. Respect is demanded and expected to all officers of the law. If you don't behave in a civilized manner, you are temporarily removed from civilization.

I don't consider a courtroom and the residence one owns as remotely comparable in this discussion.

[LineCrosser]

Originally Posted by JohnJMS

I expect they should be arrested, same as I would expect someone yelling at a judge in a courtroom or an attorney in a courtroom and calling them an MFer, they should be arrested to - and they would be. They are all officers of the law. Respect is demanded and expected to all officers of the law. If you don't behave in a civilized manner, you are temporarily removed from civilization.

They should be arrested on what charge?

Comtempt of Court is a specific charge that can be leveled against someone. Hurting a police officer's feelings or ego with words is not.

And who are officers to DEMAND respect? All humans should receive respect, true enough, but to demand it at the barrel of a gun or at the threat of handcuffs is plain wrong.

[SweetLou]

Originally Posted by JohnJMS

I expect they should be arrested, same as I would expect someone yelling at a judge in a courtroom or an attorney in a courtroom and calling them an MFer, they should be arrested to - and they would be. They are all officers of the law. Respect is demanded and expected to all officers of the law. If you don't behave in a civilized manner, you are temporarily removed from civilization.

The only way someone "deserves" respect is treating people the same way. If you think a cop, and I using a hypothetical, can be arrogant and disrespectful in their dealings with the public, I should be able to be angry in response without fear of arrest. It's not like the guy beat the cop with his cane or threw a punch. They were just words man.

[LineCrosser]

Originally Posted by pfife

I don't consider a courtroom and the residence one owns as remotely comparable in this discussion.

True dat.

[Buddha]

Originally Posted by JohnJMS

I expect they should be arrested, same as I would expect someone yelling at a judge in a courtroom or an attorney in a courtroom and calling them an MFer, they should be arrested to - and they would be. They are all officers of the law. Respect is demanded and expected to all officers of the law. If you don't behave in a civilized manner, you are temporarily removed from civilization.

As has been said, a courtroom and your own home are entirely different places with entirely different expectations of behavior. The two are not comparable.

[Biff Mayhem]

Originally Posted by Buddha

Yes, handcuffing someone and throwing them in jail is taking away their liberty. Whether he can get bailed out is of no consequence.

Really? I mean seriously? I'd expect this from some of the whack jobs around here but not from you. That's a bit out there.

[pfife]

Originally Posted by Biff Mayhem

Really? I mean seriously? I'd expect this from some of the whack jobs around here but not from you. That's a bit out there.

So he had all of his liberties when he was arrested?

I think what buddha said is factually true.

[Biff Mayhem]

Originally Posted by pfife

So he had all of his liberties when he was arrested?

I think what buddha said is factually true.

Perhaps in a sense. I think that he behaved in a manner that caused him to willingly relinquish his "liberties" rather than have them "taken away".

[pfife]

Originally Posted by Biff Mayhem

Perhaps in a sense. I think that he behaved in a manner that caused him to willingly relinquish his "liberties" rather than have them "taken away".

I think the bold part is probably what Buddha meant, but I'll defer to him.

That said, it appears that the legal system ultimately disagreed with your later statement, as the charges were dropped.

[billms]

I think, for the most part we all agree that Gates would have had no trouble, no arrest, no handcuffs, if he had been a bit more polite and deferential to the police.

This is just like the gang member who tells you to get out of your car because he's taking it. You have the right to swear at him. Its perfectly legal. He's invading your property and you've done nothing wrong. But its stupid - be polite, follow orders, be deferential and things will go easier with you. I think we would all agree with that.

Doesn't it trouble you that the argument is essentially the same for the cops and the gangs here? You did nothing wrong, nothing illegal, and have the right to speak your mind. But if you do its kind of dumb and can hurt your quality of life in the future.

[Oblong]

yeah except for the fact that the cop has a legitimate reason to be there and to be asking questions.

Maybe the police departments need to have more training sessions that can include "People of importance" seminars, complete with pictures, so that they know who to leave alone.

I'm telling you, the issue here is that Gates was bothered by the fact that this lowly cop didn't act all scared and petrified and show deference to him and his honorary degrees. How dare a common man ask a tenured Harvard professor some questions.

I wonder what honorary degree they give out for using language like "mother ****er" to a police officer.

[billms]

Its not a matter of "people of importance" blah blah blah. Its not really about Gates at all.

Your sentence about Gates may be completely true - I really doubt it but lets assume so.

So what? The cop made it clear that even if the man was within his rights he was going to suffer the consequences of not being extra nice to the cop. And he carried out that threat. That sucks man. Thats not right.

Its my right to say "mother ****er" to a police officer. I also know that its likely to get me tased. I don't do it for that reason and many others.

But that doesn't mean the cop who does the tasing - or arrests gates because he was being rude and belligerent - isn't being an abusive cop who makes life worse for all cops and citizens.

[Buddha]

Originally Posted by Biff Mayhem

Really? I mean seriously? I'd expect this from some of the whack jobs around here but not from you. That's a bit out there.

The act of throwing someone in jail is taking away their liberty.

Whether or not they DESERVED it is a separate question, but the fact is that when you are thrown in jail, your liberty has been taken away by the authorities.

[Biff Mayhem]

Originally Posted by Buddha

The act of throwing someone in jail is taking away their liberty.

Whether or not they DESERVED it is a separate question, but the fact is that when you are thrown in jail, your liberty has been taken away by the authorities.

I disagree (mostly). If a person is thrown in jail it is extremely likely that they forfeited their liberties rather than had them taken away.

[pfife]

Originally Posted by Biff Mayhem

I disagree (mostly). If a person is thrown in jail it is extremely likely that they forfeited their liberties rather than had them taken away.

I don't understand how this comports with the charges being dropped. If he deserved to be arrested, didn't he also deserve to be charged with a crime?

[Biff Mayhem]

Originally Posted by pfife

I don't understand how this comports with the charges being dropped. If he deserved to be arrested, didn't he also deserve to be charged with a crime?

Yup. And I think the cops are chickencrap for dropping the charges.

[pfife]

Originally Posted by Biff Mayhem

Yup. And I think the cops are chickencrap for dropping the charges.

It wasn't the cops:

BOSTON – Prosecutors dropped a disorderly conduct charge Tuesday against prominent black scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr., who was arrested after forcing his way into his own house in what he and other blacks say was an outrageous but all-too-common example of how police treat them.

Charge dropped against black Harvard scholar - Yahoo! News

[Who is the Drizzle?]

Originally Posted by Biff Mayhem

Yup. And I think the cops are chickencrap for dropping the charges.

So everyone who yells at anyone should be arrested? Or do cops get special treatment?

[Biff Mayhem]

Originally Posted by Who is the Drizzle?

So everyone who yells at anyone should be arrested? Or do cops get special treatment?

Show me where I said that.

[Biff Mayhem]

Originally Posted by pfife

It wasn't the cops:

Then the prosecutors are the chickenpoopy people.

[sub rosa]

Originally Posted by Biff Mayhem

I'd expect this from some of the whack jobs around here but not from you.

count me among those that believe that it is a deprivation of one's liberty to be arrested by the police. i also wonder if it's appropriate for a moderator to refer to some of motownsports's members as "whack jobs" but i haven't read the charter yet.

the 911 caller didn't identify the race of the men seen entering gates's house:

CAMBRIDGE, Mass. (AP) — A woman who called 911 to report a possible break-in at the home of black Harvard scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. makes no mention of race.

Cambridge police released a recording of the call Monday after more than a week of controversy over Gates' arrest on a disorderly conduct charge on July 16.

The caller, Lucia Whalen, says she saw two men pushing on the door of the house. She tells police she is not sure if the men live there or not. When pressed for a description by a dispatcher, she says one of the men may have been Hispanic.

911 call in Gates case does not mention race - KJCT8.com - Grand Junction, Montrose - Weather, News, Sports |

so why then does sgt. crowley, in his supplemented police report, describe his encounter with lucia whalen this way:

"She went on to tell me that she observed what appeared to be two black males with backpacks on the porch of [redacted] Ware Street."

did she change her story about race, or did sgt. crowley do that?

[pfife]

Originally Posted by Biff Mayhem

Then the prosecutors are the chickenpoopy people.

Or they just disagreed that he should have been arrested...