Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast
Results 161 to 200 of 202

Thread: Behavior Issues

  1. #161
    billms's Avatar
    billms is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Kirkland, WA
    Posts
    19,980

    Default




    Let me try to rephrase what I think Buddha was observing.

    It is quite common for people to get irate if their religion is questioned. If I told an evangelical that their idea of god was stupid many of them would get quite pissed off. And most people that I know, evangelical or not, would think I was being an ***. And I think these statements are true regardless of if I said that in a political forum or on the street.

    But if I tell Deeds that conservatives are heartless bastards and a person would have to either be deeply immoral or stupid to be one - well - thats pretty rough but language like that is heard. And I think it would be tolerated - not ignored but also not engendering the same sort of shocked reaction as the previous example - regardless of where I said it, i.e. in a forum or on the street.

    I don't think this is universal - we all have no trouble making fun of the hale bop sneaker dudes or jones town.

    That strikes me as odd. Why are the dominant religions given a pass - you can discuss some stuff but its really out of bounds to get in somebody's face about it - while other deeply personal beliefs like political philosophy are less respected?
    What, me worry?

  2. #162
    apabruce's Avatar
    apabruce is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    4,634

    Default

    I've had a feeling, which I haven't been able able to explain or justify through evidence, that Christian sensibilities are afforded more respect and deference than non-Christian ones. I was hoping a Christian would say "Yeah, you're probably right, but quit whining. Your presence here is voluntary." At least then I would have the satisfaction that someone who otherwise thinks my beliefs are delusional thinks I might be right.
    Last edited by apabruce; 09-11-2009 at 07:37 PM.
    Bruce

    Mammals suck.

  3. #163
    Mark The Shark's Avatar
    Mark The Shark is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Delta Township
    Posts
    9,427
    Blog Entries
    6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by billms View Post
    Let me try to rephrase what I think Buddha was observing.

    It is quite common for people to get irate if their religion is questioned. If I told an evangelical that their idea of god was stupid many of them would get quite pissed off. And most people that I know, evangelical or not, would think I was being an ***. And I think these statements are true regardless of if I said that in a political forum or on the street.

    But if I tell Deeds that conservatives are heartless bastards and a person would have to either be deeply immoral or stupid to be one - well - thats pretty rough but language like that is heard. And I think it would be tolerated - not ignored but also not engendering the same sort of shocked reaction as the previous example - regardless of where I said it, i.e. in a forum or on the street.

    I don't think this is universal - we all have no trouble making fun of the hale bop sneaker dudes or jones town.

    That strikes me as odd. Why are the dominant religions given a pass - you can discuss some stuff but its really out of bounds to get in somebody's face about it - while other deeply personal beliefs like political philosophy are less respected?
    I think its because politics is a public matter and, therefore, its more acceptable to discuss them in a public context. That's not to say I think it is appropriate in general to make insulting political comments to people you don't know -- I find it quite rude even if I share the speaker's political philosophy.

    Plus, its been that way for thousands of years. Blame the Greeks and Romans.
    2012 Adopted Tiger -- RHP Luis Marte

  4. #164
    billms's Avatar
    billms is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Kirkland, WA
    Posts
    19,980

    Default

    Religion is often on public display - and less often but not all that rare a public matter as well. I don't disagree with you in principle but I don't think there is a hard line.
    What, me worry?

  5. #165
    Mark The Shark's Avatar
    Mark The Shark is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Delta Township
    Posts
    9,427
    Blog Entries
    6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by billms View Post
    Religion is often on public display - and less often but not all that rare a public matter as well. I don't disagree with you in principle but I don't think there is a hard line.
    I see your point, but I'm not convinced that the tenants of religious are really a public matter. Religion's role in society may be, but not really its beliefs. Obviously, everything about politics is a public matter.
    2012 Adopted Tiger -- RHP Luis Marte

  6. #166
    Lousluggage's Avatar
    Lousluggage is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Cleveland Circle
    Posts
    12,614

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by apabruce View Post
    I've had a feeling, which I haven't been able able to explain or justify through evidence, that Christian sensibilities are afforded more respect and deference than non-Christian ones. I was hoping a Christian would say "Yeah, you're probably right, but quit whining. Your presence here is voluntary." At least then I would have the satisfaction that someone who otherwise thinks my beliefs are delusional thinks I might be right.
    I would probably expand that to Judeo-Christian beliefs.

    One example that I think would illustrate what you're trying to express is that some years ago, people were polled to determine how many people would be willing to elect a President who was not religious-and an overwhelming majority of people said that they would not vote for an atheist. Keep in mind that this was without knowing anything about the candidate's political beliefs.

    The question is, why is a person that is not religious automatically seen as unfit for political office, and why is it not considered a bad thing to reject somebody just for that reason?
    This spot, and a place in my heart, is reserved for TC.

  7. #167
    billms's Avatar
    billms is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Kirkland, WA
    Posts
    19,980

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark The Shark View Post
    I see your point, but I'm not convinced that the tenants of religious are really a public matter. Religion's role in society may be, but not really its beliefs. Obviously, everything about politics is a public matter.
    I'm not so sure I agree with you about politics so much. Policy certainly is public. Liberalism means different things to each individual - much like conservatism - and what it means to each of us is often philosophical - not policy - and deeply personal.
    What, me worry?

  8. #168
    apabruce's Avatar
    apabruce is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    4,634

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lousluggage
    The question is, why is a person that is not religious automatically seen as unfit for political office, and why is it not considered a bad thing to reject somebody just for that reason?
    I can't blame the poll respondents for that. From their point of view, an atheist is wrong on so many levels. The fact that an atheist can't see what is obvious to a Christian would tend to make them question what an atheist does see. And religion comes into so many topics; abortion, stem cell research, teaching evolution, the death penalty, pre-marital sex, gay rights, assisted suicide, to name a few.
    Bruce

    Mammals suck.

  9. #169
    billms's Avatar
    billms is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Kirkland, WA
    Posts
    19,980

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lousluggage View Post
    The question is, why is a person that is not religious automatically seen as unfit for political office, and why is it not considered a bad thing to reject somebody just for that reason?
    And if you thought the 'other' religion - whatever it is - is wrong why would it be better to pick one of them than an atheist?
    What, me worry?

  10. #170
    Mark The Shark's Avatar
    Mark The Shark is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Delta Township
    Posts
    9,427
    Blog Entries
    6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lousluggage View Post
    I would probably expand that to Judeo-Christian beliefs.

    One example that I think would illustrate what you're trying to express is that some years ago, people were polled to determine how many people would be willing to elect a President who was not religious-and an overwhelming majority of people said that they would not vote for an atheist. Keep in mind that this was without knowing anything about the candidate's political beliefs.

    The question is, why is a person that is not religious automatically seen as unfit for political office, and why is it not considered a bad thing to reject somebody just for that reason?
    I think its because the overwhelming majority of people in this country come from a Judeo-Christian background. That means an atheist has an fundamentally different moral and ethical background than the vast majority of the rest of the country. In other words, I have far more in common spiritually with a African Muslim than I do with a European atheist.
    2012 Adopted Tiger -- RHP Luis Marte

  11. #171
    Lousluggage's Avatar
    Lousluggage is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Cleveland Circle
    Posts
    12,614

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by billms View Post
    And if you thought the 'other' religion - whatever it is - is wrong why would it be better to pick one of them than an atheist?
    I have no idea.
    This spot, and a place in my heart, is reserved for TC.

  12. #172
    Mark The Shark's Avatar
    Mark The Shark is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Delta Township
    Posts
    9,427
    Blog Entries
    6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by billms View Post
    I'm not so sure I agree with you about politics so much. Policy certainly is public. Liberalism means different things to each individual - much like conservatism - and what it means to each of us is often philosophical - not policy - and deeply personal.
    I'm shocked, SHOCKED that we disagree.

    I do see what you are saying here, but I think its also been the case for thousands of years that philosophical matters have been discussed openly in the public forum.
    2012 Adopted Tiger -- RHP Luis Marte

  13. #173
    Lousluggage's Avatar
    Lousluggage is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Cleveland Circle
    Posts
    12,614

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark The Shark View Post
    I think its because the overwhelming majority of people in this country come from a Judeo-Christian background. That means an atheist has an fundamentally different moral and ethical background than the vast majority of the rest of the country. In other words, I have far more in common spiritually with a African Muslim than I do with a European atheist.
    See, that's what's interesting to me. I have several atheist friends who are active in their communities, who donate time to helping the homeless/hungry, and whose personal beliefs about many issues are similar, and often identical to, many people of faith. They just don't happen to believe in a higher power. They also don't talk about their 'lack of faith' in public, but it seems as if in some elections not talking about his/her faith in itself can hurt or even destroy a candidate's chances.

    This of course gets tricky for people (for example in northern NE), where people are taught that religion is a very personal issue that shouldn't be discussed outside of church/family, but that's another issue altogether.
    This spot, and a place in my heart, is reserved for TC.

  14. #174
    Mark The Shark's Avatar
    Mark The Shark is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Delta Township
    Posts
    9,427
    Blog Entries
    6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lousluggage View Post
    See, that's what's interesting to me. I have several atheist friends who are active in their communities, who donate time to helping the homeless/hungry, and whose personal beliefs about many issues are similar, and often identical to, many people of faith. They just don't happen to believe in a higher power. They also don't talk about their 'lack of faith' in public, but it seems as if in some elections not talking about his/her faith in itself can hurt or even destroy a candidate's chances.

    This of course gets tricky for people (for example in northern NE), where people are taught that religion is a very personal issue that shouldn't be discussed outside of church/family, but that's another issue altogether.
    I'm not trying to suggest that atheists are immoral. In fact, I don't necessarily even consider it a disqualification. But I think its hard to deny that atheists beliefs are fundamentally different from that of the vast majority of the country and to some people, that's a barrier far more troubling than merely how a candidate looks.
    2012 Adopted Tiger -- RHP Luis Marte

  15. #175
    apabruce's Avatar
    apabruce is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    4,634

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark The Shark View Post
    I think its because the overwhelming majority of people in this country come from a Judeo-Christian background. That means an atheist has an fundamentally different moral and ethical background than the vast majority of the rest of the country. In other words, I have far more in common spiritually with a African Muslim than I do with a European atheist.
    Yet, from a cultural standpoint, it's far easier for me to interact with an American Judeo-Christian than someone from another culture. Mainstream, non-evangelical Christians, would find little to disagree with me if we were discussing things in a bar, unless the specific issues of afterlife and worship came up.

    Now, if I was having a beer with a Christian who is opposed to people living together outside of wedlock, opposed to swearing, drinking, gay rights, etc., we would not be agreeing much, but I guess I wouldn't be having a beer with that person anyway.
    Bruce

    Mammals suck.

  16. #176
    sinister porpoise's Avatar
    sinister porpoise is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    5,868

    Default

    IMO two political liberals, atheist and Christian, are likely to have more in common than a liberal Christian and a conservative Christian. Morally and ethically.

  17. #177
    billms's Avatar
    billms is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Kirkland, WA
    Posts
    19,980

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark The Shark View Post
    I think its because the overwhelming majority of people in this country come from a Judeo-Christian background. That means an atheist has an fundamentally different moral and ethical background than the vast majority of the rest of the country. In other words, I have far more in common spiritually with a African Muslim than I do with a European atheist.
    Well, I'd disagree with that. The moral and ethical underpinnings there are essentially the 10 commandments. I would bet that most athiests believe in most of those - and the ones that they don't agree with are the ones that people from Judeo-Christian backgrounds least often adhere to.

    But your last point intrigues me. Do many people use "judeo-christian" to include muslim's? I hadn't heard that before and Wikipedia - the authority on everything - suggests not but that it may be a coming trend.
    What, me worry?

  18. #178
    billms's Avatar
    billms is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Kirkland, WA
    Posts
    19,980

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark The Shark View Post
    I'm not trying to suggest that atheists are immoral. In fact, I don't necessarily even consider it a disqualification. But I think its hard to deny that atheists beliefs are fundamentally different from that of the vast majority of the country and to some people, that's a barrier far more troubling than merely how a candidate looks.
    I just don't see it.

    For the most part we all think its bad to lie, steal, kill or commit adultery. Jews don't believe Christ is god. Christian's don't believe Mohamed was a prophet. And the Muslim's think the other two stopped two far. Thats a whole passel of differences in my book. They seem bigger than "don't use your god's name as a curse".
    What, me worry?

  19. #179
    Lousluggage's Avatar
    Lousluggage is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Cleveland Circle
    Posts
    12,614

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by billms View Post
    Well, I'd disagree with that. The moral and ethical underpinnings there are essentially the 10 commandments. I would bet that most athiests believe in most of those - and the ones that they don't agree with are the ones that people from Judeo-Christian backgrounds least often adhere to.

    But your last point intrigues me. Do many people use "judeo-christian" to include muslim's? I hadn't heard that before and Wikipedia - the authority on everything - suggests not but that it may be a coming trend.
    I don't know how many people use 'Judeo-Christian' to describe Muslims, but according the the Koran, Muslims follow the doctrine of these four prophets: Moses, Abraham, Jesus, and Mohammed. So yes, I would say that it is a religion based on Judeo-Christian values.
    This spot, and a place in my heart, is reserved for TC.

  20. #180
    Mark The Shark's Avatar
    Mark The Shark is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Delta Township
    Posts
    9,427
    Blog Entries
    6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by billms View Post
    But your last point intrigues me. Do many people use "judeo-christian" to include muslim's? I hadn't heard that before and Wikipedia - the authority on everything - suggests not but that it may be a coming trend.
    I do, because it's logical to do so -- all three religions have Abraham as a common ancestor. I can't speak for others but I wouldn't be surprised to find myself in the minority. It wouldn't be the first time.
    2012 Adopted Tiger -- RHP Luis Marte

  21. #181
    DrWho17 is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    9,125

    Default

    Is Judas Cats ok? I remember my Grandpa saying that all the time, I imagine Judas is a reference to Judas Iscariot, not sure about the Cats part or the spelling that's just how it sounds phonetically. Always wondered about that.

  22. #182
    Chopper's Avatar
    Chopper is online now MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Midland, MI
    Posts
    5,214

    Default

    Is holy cow ok? Just asking.

  23. #183
    hueytaxi's Avatar
    hueytaxi is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Lakeland, Florida
    Posts
    43,922

    Default

    Very revealiing thread tonight. Nice to read it while my friends can debate a hot topic so cordially.
    Live your life for what it can be and not for what it was.

    MMXIV AAT: KYLE RYAN; MMXV AAT: TBD
    VT

  24. #184
    Melody's Avatar
    Melody is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    13,396

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chopper View Post
    Is holy cow ok? Just asking.
    I wondered about that too. That's something I say a lot.

    Personally, I'm not shocked by people saying, "J.C." although I myself do not use His name in this context and have taught my children to do the same. There's a difference, at least to me, between someone saying something that offends someone else and someone being deliberately offensive. And this really goes double when I am in a situation with other adults from a variety of beliefs, backgrounds, etc.

    Now, Pete ... his name I take in vain a lot too.

  25. #185
    Blue Square Thing's Avatar
    Blue Square Thing is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Someplace else
    Posts
    11,068

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by apabruce View Post
    I've had a feeling, which I haven't been able able to explain or justify through evidence, that Christian sensibilities are afforded more respect and deference than non-Christian ones. I was hoping a Christian would say "Yeah, you're probably right, but quit whining. Your presence here is voluntary." At least then I would have the satisfaction that someone who otherwise thinks my beliefs are delusional thinks I might be right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lousluggage View Post
    I would probably expand that to Judeo-Christian beliefs.
    This was what I was trying to say earlier, more or less.

    The last two or three points just up there ^ are also interesting - where, exactly, do we try and draw some kind of line on this sort of thing?

  26. #186
    Blue Square Thing's Avatar
    Blue Square Thing is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Someplace else
    Posts
    11,068

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark The Shark View Post
    I think its because the overwhelming majority of people in this country come from a Judeo-Christian background. That means an atheist has an fundamentally different moral and ethical background than the vast majority of the rest of the country. In other words, I have far more in common spiritually with a African Muslim than I do with a European atheist.
    Oh, I think you'd find that we probably have a lot more in common than you might possibly imagine - including many of the ways that we look at the world. And, in lots of ways, that'd prolly be quite, but not very, different from the ways that a Tuareg from northern Niger, for example, might look at stuff.

  27. #187
    hueytaxi's Avatar
    hueytaxi is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Lakeland, Florida
    Posts
    43,922

    Default

    Catching up last night and this morning on this antiquated PC I've borrowed, I made a fool of myself, before deleting. I found myself intolerant of one of our newer members. I had exchanged a few comments on my old unit, and reading the latest, I valued the restraint some have been using. BST had commented on treating new members unfairly becaus of minimum post counts and I took that into consideration. Mods have pointed out that being opinionated is not a sin. Yet I lost it this morning and jumped in (Oblong did sugggest not *****footing around . But after reading my rant, I found myself in the same game of baiting and biting.
    Live your life for what it can be and not for what it was.

    MMXIV AAT: KYLE RYAN; MMXV AAT: TBD
    VT

  28. #188
    hueytaxi's Avatar
    hueytaxi is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Lakeland, Florida
    Posts
    43,922

    Default

    Congratulations to our Political Posters for Election Night. I expected some bashing and name calling and was relieved at the pleasant atmosphere here all evening. Everyone made reasonable and respectful posts. Hope to see more of this.
    Live your life for what it can be and not for what it was.

    MMXIV AAT: KYLE RYAN; MMXV AAT: TBD
    VT

  29. #189
    DaYooperASBDT's Avatar
    DaYooperASBDT is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    WHAT-IFS-VILLE
    Posts
    53,728
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default

    Hard times made strange bedfellows eh?
    2014 Adopt A Tiger: Casey Crosby
    These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... Morons.
    VT

  30. #190
    DennisDubay's Avatar
    DennisDubay is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Bar Stool.
    Posts
    10,514
    Blog Entries
    8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DaYooperASBDT View Post
    Hard times made strange bedfellows eh?
    Stick it, Yooper.

  31. #191
    DaYooperASBDT's Avatar
    DaYooperASBDT is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    WHAT-IFS-VILLE
    Posts
    53,728
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisDubay View Post
    Stick it, Yooper.
    Go take a flying leap into Lake Dumb ****.
    2014 Adopt A Tiger: Casey Crosby
    These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... Morons.
    VT

  32. #192
    DennisDubay's Avatar
    DennisDubay is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Bar Stool.
    Posts
    10,514
    Blog Entries
    8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DaYooperASBDT View Post
    Go take a flying leap into Lake Dumb ****.
    Maybe I will. I love four star lakes.

  33. #193
    pfife's Avatar
    pfife is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Philaware Pragicago
    Posts
    36,313

    Default

    I was wondering when you'd delete that post. Took you a while Huey.

  34. #194
    Euphdude's Avatar
    Euphdude is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Davison, MI
    Posts
    9,551
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pfife View Post
    I was wondering when you'd delete that post. Took you a while Huey.
    What post?

  35. #195
    hueytaxi's Avatar
    hueytaxi is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Lakeland, Florida
    Posts
    43,922

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Euphdude View Post
    What post?
    Same here? Another butt nugget? Beware stalking trolls.
    Live your life for what it can be and not for what it was.

    MMXIV AAT: KYLE RYAN; MMXV AAT: TBD
    VT

  36. #196
    Corky's Avatar
    Corky is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Liberty Lake, WA
    Posts
    32,506
    Blog Entries
    31

    Default

    Wow.
    2014 AAT - Phil Coke


    I was thrown out of N.Y.U. my freshman year for cheating on my metaphysics final, you know. I looked within the soul of the boy sitting next to me. - Alvy Singer

  37. #197
    pfife's Avatar
    pfife is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Philaware Pragicago
    Posts
    36,313

    Default

    For months the last post in this thread was Huey saying nice thing about me.

  38. #198
    hueytaxi's Avatar
    hueytaxi is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Lakeland, Florida
    Posts
    43,922

    Default

    I quoted an earlier thread. If it was deleted, it was not by me. Seems a mod also has an issue with a troll.
    Live your life for what it can be and not for what it was.

    MMXIV AAT: KYLE RYAN; MMXV AAT: TBD
    VT

  39. #199
    pfife's Avatar
    pfife is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Philaware Pragicago
    Posts
    36,313

    Default

    I'm fine w/ this record as is. Readers can judge your response on its merits.

    I'll defer to the mods about mod behavior, especially when it concerns me. I haven't heard from any of them in a while.
    Last edited by pfife; 05-01-2013 at 12:12 AM.

  40. #200
    hueytaxi's Avatar
    hueytaxi is offline MotownSports Fan
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Lakeland, Florida
    Posts
    43,922

    Default

    And here I just thought he was a troll, but it is worse.......psycho. And predictably there will be a final follow up for his name on view.......have at it.
    Live your life for what it can be and not for what it was.

    MMXIV AAT: KYLE RYAN; MMXV AAT: TBD
    VT

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •