Game #24: Nuggets @ Pistons - 12/11/12

[Deleterious]

@

Denver 10-11 (5-10) @ Detroit 7-16 (5-5)

Live from the Palace of Auburn Hills

Time: 7:30PM EST

TV: FSD

Injury Report

Detroit: None

Denver: Wilson Chandler - Out (Hip). Julyan Stone - Out (Hip).

Season Series - Denver 1-0

11/6/12 - DET 97 DEN 109 | Recap | Shot Chart | Game Thread

Team Stats




Team Four Factors | Team Opp
eFG% - 0.497 (10th of 30) | 0.498 (20th of 30)
TOV% - 0.145 (22nd of 30) | 0.128 (24th of 30)
ORB% - 0.335 (1st of 30) | 0.282 (24th of 30)
FT/FGA - 0.198 (20th of 30) | 0.189 (6th of 30)

Team Leaders
Win Shares - Kenneth Faried 2.0
Minutes Per Game - Ty Lawson 36.3
Points Per Game - Danilo Gallinari 15.5
Rebounds Per Game - Kenneth Faried 10.0
Assists Per Game - Ty Lawson 7.0
Steals Per Game - Ty Lawson 2.0
Blocks Per Game - JaVale McGee 1.8



Team Four Factors | Team Opp
eFG% - 0.479 (18th of 30) | 0.479 (9th of 30)
TOV% - 0.143 (18th of 30) | 0.125 (26th of 30)
ORB% - 0.271 (13th of 30) | 0.299 (29th of 30)
FT/FGA - 0.234 (5th of 30) | 0.217 (20th of 30)

Team Leaders
Win Shares - Tayshaun Prince 1.5
Minutes Per Game - Tayshaun Prince 33.0
Points Per Game - Greg Monroe 15.3
Rebounds Per Game - Greg Monroe 9.1
Assists Per Game - Brandon Knight 5.0
Steals Per Game - Greg Monroe 1.5
Blocks Per Game - Jason Maxiell 1.5

[Deleterious]

Updated lineup stats. I included the top 10.

The corresponding stats that go with the lineups.

Detroit Pistons top five man units data from 82games.com

[DTroppens]

I feel like these lineups are kind of like the American Top 10 for the Pistons. And when I look at them I want to hear "And up five notches is the lineup of..."

It's interesting how you make one change in the top two lineups and how different the production is.

The fact that Charlie V didn't play a good chunk of the start of the season and is still in the third-most used lineup tells you how much lineup shuffling has gone on this year.

[Deleterious]

NBA power rankings: Thunder, Spurs have bad blood, top spots

The top rookie voting was more lopsided, as it has been since No. 1 draft pick Anthony Davis went down.

Here's the no-surprise voting (points on a 5-3-1 scale):

1. Damian Lillard, Portland Trail Blazers: He received all six first-place votes at 30 points.

2. Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, Charlotte Bobcats: 13 points.

3. Dion Waiters, Cleveland Cavaliers: five points.

Also receiving votes were Detroit Pistons center Andre Drummond (three points), Washington Wizards shooting guard Bradley Beal (two points) and Minnesota Timberwolves shooting guard Alexey Shved (one point).

Doesn't mean much I guess.

[DaBishop]

we shouldn't be surprised that the only line-up with Drummond and Monroe is the one with the least minutes...I really gotta stop beating on this dead horse. Ok, I'm done.

[Deleterious]

we shouldn't be surprised that the only line-up with Drummond and Monroe is the one with the least minutes...I really gotta stop beating on this dead horse. Ok, I'm done.

Look at the defensive numbers on that lineup. I like.

[ScrubBeaterUpper]

Max is dunking on fools like nobody's biz in the first quarter, swatting Javale McGee back to half court to boot.

I feel the same way about Max as everybody else (contract year) but he is balling thsi year.

[Deleterious]

56% from the line? Did I accidentally turn on a college game?

[DaBishop]

Max is earning a future on this team, though he may be playing himself to a much better contract with another team (or this team...Joe likes giving out contracts that don't help the team for some reason). Id be real happy with him as our 6th man.

[DaBishop]

56% from the line? Did I accidentally turn on a college game?

And Drummond hasn't even chipped in yet.

[Deleterious]

Michigan shot 60% from the stripe tonight. Come on Pistons!

[ScrubBeaterUpper]

6 blocks for Max tonight.

Putting that 7-4 wingspan to good use. Pay attention Tay

[ScrubBeaterUpper]

Stuckey just out ran (wball) Ty Lawson and made a beatiful transistion layup.

He has talent, might be the only perimeter on the guy with any real NBA talent though.

[DaBishop]

i have so much less interest in watching the game when Drummond's not in there...

[Deleterious]

Pistons lose. Lets look at how Lawson stacked up against Daye.

Lawosn - 26 points, 7 assists, 5 rebounds, 0 turnovers, 4 steals

Daye - DNP - Coaches Decision.


Oh I forgot. Lets compare Daye to Holiday from last nights game.

Holiday - 25 points, 8 assists, 5 rebounds, 3 turnovers, 2 steals, 1 block.

Daye - DNP - Coaches Decision.

Hell of a draft pick Joe.

[DaBishop]

charlie v had 4 rebounds and 2 3pt shots. It's a first this year I think...more rebounds then 3PA

[RJBBREZ]

i have so much less interest in watching the game when Drummond's not in there...

Why Drummond is not starting is unbelievable to me.

This team is very bad, they might as well play the young guys and let them develop. What happened to Kim English? Prince deserves better and I hope they trade him and or Stuckey. If CV is on the roster next season, I am not sure I'll be able to watch.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Why Drummond is not starting is unbelievable to me.

This team is very bad, they might as well play the young guys and let them develop.

I probably am in the moniority, but I think most development takes place in practice, and I further think the difference in additional development between 15 minutes a game and 30 minutes a game over half a season is pretty negligible given how far along the development curve professionals are. I doubt we are saying 2 seasons from now that Drummond development or lack thereof is due his playing time the first 25 games of his career.

I think Andre will get the time you want in about 20 games. I think it is more important that he become acclimated to the daily grind of NBA life and learn he will have time taken away from him if he isn't doing what the coach wants.

...Prince deserves better...

You probably do not want to know what I think Prince deserves.

[4hzglory]

You probably do not want to know what I think Prince deserves.

Yeah, me too. I appreciate what he did during the run, but he has embodied everything about being stuck in the rut and not moving forward - his game of bringing the offense to a standstill is a great visual display. His complaining is not something I would want around my developing players. Are Monroe's annoying "and one" comments something that comes with the wining for calls that no one embodies quite like Prince. For me, Prince being around is not beneficial for the future of the team. What I have heard of Maggette's leadership since he has been here is much better for the future than Prince and I would take whatever I could get for Prince even if it costs us 5 wins in 2012-13 because we aren't going anywhere anyhow.

[DTroppens]

I am not that concerned about Drummond's playing status. He's averaging just over 20 minutes a game in December, up from just about 17 in November.

It's not like he's rotting on the bench.

[DaBishop]

I have less problems with his playing time then earlier on, but I think its far from optimum. That said, it is time to start the complaints that we're not seeing more English, Slav, and Middleton. Particularly the first two who spread the offense the same way CV does but offer sooooo much more unless Joe finds someone to trade for him.

[DTroppens]

I have less problems with his playing time then earlier on, but I think its far from optimum. That said, it is time to start the complaints that we're not seeing more English, Slav, and Middleton. Particularly the first two who spread the offense the same way CV does but offer sooooo much more unless Joe finds someone to trade for him.

The fact that we hardly have seen some of those players or not at all is kind of depressing. English played a bit during the west coast trip. But beyond that we really haven't seen any of those guys. I don't even know if Kratsov (however, you spell his name) has dressed for a game. They did one tiny piece talking about how well he looked dressed with his suit in one game and that's about all I can remember being said about him all season. I think Middleton has played a decent amount in one or two games?

My guess is that the same way I say I like how they are forcing Drummond to "own" playing time they are doing the same with the other two rookies. I agree with that view, but not to the detriment of them never playing at all. And if they have been that outclassed that they really don't deserve to be on the floor, then that's damning in itself. It's been awhile, but I thought English had a few nice games. I certainly don't remember him being complete garbage, so at the very least it would be nice to see him float into the rotation a little bit more.

I didn't see any of the preseason so I can't say I even say I saw Kratsov at that time to know what he brings to the table. He's got to look incredibly outclassed not to even be dressing. If he doesn't, at least dress the guy.

I'm kind of wearing thin on the whole Charlie V thing again. I hope he's getting PT so they can market him in some sort of package. If not, I guess it's nice to see him showing some effort, but that effort is about two years too late for me. Void that contract and move on. It's hard for me to look at Charlie V as a pillar of consistency that one on the bench should look at and strive to be in order to earn more PT.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I am not a fan of 'appeal to authority' arguments. I think they are lazy in general.

That written, I believe the Pistons as an organization:

a. are more knowledgeable about developing talent than we are collectively,
b. are watching practices and seeing things we aren't privy to,
c. know they aren't likely to be competitive this season, and
d. absolutely want all drafted players to develop into the best player they can be.

So when I see a guy like English or Middleton not playing, that tells me the guy simply is not earning his playing time. Further, I think if they believe there is only a small difference between in the quality of play of drafted guy and a veteran that doesn't figure into the long term plan, they would give a little extra run to the draftee. Just a guess on my part.

[T&P_Fan]

a. are more knowledgeable about developing talent than we are collectively,

This is speaking to larger point, but I honestly do not believe Joe D knows more than us collectively, anymore. There was time where I would call myself an idiot for what I just said, but the proof is in the pudding. We wouldn't have drafted Darko, Daye or Stuckey, we wouldn't have signed CV and Gordon to contracts that tied up all our cap space and I don't believe anyone here would have agreed it was a good idea to re-sign Prince. Not only are they poor at developing talent they over value talent, i.e. trading Billups because they thought Stuckey was ready to be the PG of the future.

So when I see a guy like English or Middleton not playing, that tells me the guy simply is not earning his playing time. Further, I think if they believe there is only a small difference between in the quality of play of drafted guy and a veteran that doesn't figure into the long term plan, they would give a little extra run to the draftee. Just a guess on my part.

There is no way to gauge if they have deserved time or not because they haven't played. Production in games is all that matters in pro sports. This is a losing team and management refuses to allow the young players to see what they are made of. Dumars has turned into the worst GM in the NBA, might as well hire Elgin Baylor to be the GM.

The members of this board who follow the Pistons would do a much better job than Dumars. Joe is still riding the coattails of his lucky championship team in 2004.

[4hzglory]

We wouldn't have drafted Darko, Daye or Stuckey,

I think the majority would have drafted Darko, no one would have drafted Daye, not sure on Stuckey.

we wouldn't have signed CV and Gordon to contracts that tied up all our cap space and I don't believe anyone here would have agreed it was a good idea to re-sign Prince.

I think we would have considered signing Gordon, if we hadn't foolishly re-signed Rip before that. Everything else I agree.

I do like Dumars last 3 drafts, even though I'm not sure Knight is the PG of the future and would be open to including Monroe in the right trade. However, at this time, I don't trust his judgement with the significant amount of cap space he will have in the offseason.

[T&P_Fan]

I do like Dumars last 3 drafts, even though I'm not sure Knight is the PG of the future and would be open to including Monroe in the right trade. However, at this time, I don't trust his judgement with the significant amount of cap space he will have in the offseason.

And that is the real issue here. We are coming to a point where we will have cap space available, last time around it set this franchise back at least 5 years.

And yeah, the re-signing of Rip made it foolish to sign Ben Gordon, it didn't make sense then and it turned out to never make sense.

[DTroppens]

I always find it a bit bothersome when people are quick to discredit Joe Dumars for what has happened now, but then quickly say his early success was flat out "lucky."

Tear Dumars to shreds now. He deserves it. But give the guy credit for doing what he did prior to the collapse. He created a team that was a very good squad for a reasonably long time, that made it to two NBA Championship series, winning one. Yeah, I guess every NBA Championship team was built on some luck. But to just throw it out there like he had nothing to do with what the team accomplished during that run and it was all just some sort of luck seems pretty ridiculous to me.

[T&P_Fan]

I always find it a bit bothersome when people are quick to discredit Joe Dumars for what has happened now, but then quickly say his early success was flat out "lucky."

Tear Dumars to shreds now. He deserves it. But give the guy credit for doing what he did prior to the collapse. He created a team that was a very good squad for a reasonably long time, that made it to two NBA Championship series, winning one. Yeah, I guess every NBA Championship team was built on some luck. But to just throw it out there like he had nothing to do with what the team accomplished during that run and it was all just some sort of luck seems pretty ridiculous to me.

Well I don't know how else to view it. It was a hodge podge team that came together. It was luck, every move since trading for Sheed has been atrocious.

[Deleterious]

Vincent Goodwill just tweeted. Of the 17 loses for the Pistons so far, they have held a double digit lead in 8 of them before losing.

[DaBishop]

Stuckey was not a bad draft choice...he's clearly got the talent but as happens with 90% of drafted players he hasn't put it all together...but to talk about the draft choice like it's a sign of Dumars incompetence is silly.

Frank is definitely a better coach then me, but I could set up our line-ups better.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

This is speaking to larger point, but I honestly do not believe Joe D knows more than us collectively, anymore.

I was specifically talking about about developing talent, and I said the Pistons organization, not Joe Dumars.

Your examples (especially FA / contract extentions) are examples of not evaluating talent properly or not putting the right price tag on talent rather than examples of not developing talent. Those are different skills.

There is no way to gauge if they have deserved time or not because they haven't played.

I believe playing time is earned in practice and doing the things the coaching staff expects of you. By and large, (and I know there are exceptions), it is possible to tell how well suited someone is to play based on the quality of their practice.

The members of this board who follow the Pistons would do a much better job than Dumars. Joe is still riding the coattails of his lucky championship team in 2004.

I think internet dudes can pretty accurately identify the value of an existing player based on their performance to date, and I think there are those here who can come up with good ideas of players to target based on their skill set and how they would match well with the Pistons but are currently blocked on their team.

I do not think there are many, if any, here who know what the proper drills are to run and amount of time to spend on those drills to develop a given set of skills for a NBA player. Or what the optimum practice / playing time mix is. Or what the right workload is for a 20-year old center versus a 22-year old shooting guard. Or even how to manage the differing egos / personalities involved well. I suspect there is much more knowledge in the Piston organization on this sort of thing relative to this messageboard. That was my point.

[T&P_Fan]

I specifically was talking about about developing talent, and I said the Pistons organization, not Joe Dumars.

Your examples (especially FA / contract extentions) are more examples of not evaluating or not putting the right price tag on talent properly rather than examples of not developing talent.

I guess I could have phrased that better. When I said "this is speaking to a larger point" I meant myself, as in I was going a different direction based on your comments.

I believe playing time is earned in practice and doing the things the coaching staff expects of you. By and large, (and I know there are exceptions), it is possible to tell how well suited someone is to play based on the quality of their practice.

I put about as much value in how a player performs in practice as a saber puts into RBIs. Practice telsl you very little, IMO.

I think internet dudes like me can reasonably identify the value of an existing player based on their performance to date, and I think there are those here who can come up with good ideas of players to target based on their skill set and how they would match well with the Pistons but are currently blocked on their team.

I do not think there are many, if any, here who know what the proper drills are to run and amount of time to spend on those drills to develop a given set of skills for a NBA player. Or what the optimum practice / playing time mix is. Or what the right workload is for a 20-year old center versus a 22-year old shooting guard. Or even how to manage the differing egos / personalities involved well. I suspect there is much more knowledge in the Piston organization on this sort of thing relative to this messageboard.

I think we could come up with a good coach though. Not that Frank is a bad coach, but he does have a nasty tendency to get off to some horrible starts.

[T&P_Fan]

Stuckey was not a bad draft choice...he's clearly got the talent but as happens with 90% of drafted players he hasn't put it all together...but to talk about the draft choice like it's a sign of Dumars incompetence is silly.

Frank is definitely a better coach then me, but I could set up our line-ups better.

My main point on Stuckey was that Joe traded Billups based on the assumption that Stuckey could fill those shoes, or was close to handling a similar role.

[Deleterious]

Drafting Stuckey wasn't good or bad, it was kind of a push. Trading Billups was more than fine. The problem with Joe and Stuckey is he took way too long to identify he cant play the point. A few years later that caused him to draft Daye and pass on Holiday and Lawson.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I guess I could have phrased that better. When I said "this is speaking to a larger point" I meant myself, as in I was going a different direction based on your comments.

That is fine, but it didn't address the point I was making.

I think just about everyone agrees Dumars' GMing has been pretty poor for 5 years now.

I put about as much value in how a player performs in practice as a saber puts into RBIs. Practice telsl you very little, IMO.

Practice is aimed to develop skills and cohesive team play, and I think virtually all experts would agree is a necessary element in developing talent.

If you don't think it is possible to see a player struggling to pick up key elements or struggling to effectively involve himself with his teammates in drills and scrimmages, then I guess we disagree.

I think we could come up with a good coach though. Not that Frank is a bad coach, but he does have a nasty tendency to get off to some horrible starts.

Separate from anything I have discussed. I suspect Frank has been given some guidelines on how much to use young players in games.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Drafting Stuckey wasn't good or bad, it was kind of a push. Trading Billups was more than fine. The problem with Joe and Stuckey is he took way too long to identify he cant play the point. A few years later that caused him to draft Daye and pass on Holiday and Lawson.

Bingo. Joe mistakenly thought Stuckey was a PG, and that mistake negatively impacted subsequent draft strategies.

[Deleterious]

https://twitter.com/detroitpistons/s...57643597496322

The #Pistons announced they will name the press room at @ThePalace “The Matt Dobek Press Room in tribute to the long-time PR vice president

[Buddha]

Hey, Kevin Love just said he hates Minnesota. Maybe we can trade for him? We can give up next year's number one pick!

Oh wait...

What on the Pistons would you trade for Love? Everyone but Drummond?

[Gehringer_2]

Bingo. Joe mistakenly thought Stuckey was a PG, and that mistake negatively impacted subsequent draft strategies.

Joe seems to love 'tweeners.

[Nastradamus]

I'd build a package around Monroe for Love, but I don't know what else we'd have that they want. I'd rather try to sign him in a few years after having traded Monroe for a stud wing or PG.