NHL CBA negotiations

[lesgoblu02]

This is a long ways from getting done. Owners almost broke off talks yesterday and while some stuff has been figured out, there is speculation that they have gotten further apart in other issues. They are still talking, so there's hope. But simply put, everyone cares more about adding millions to their existing millions than they do about getting the game back to the fans.

[Euphdude]

This is a long ways from getting done. Owners almost broke off talks yesterday and while some stuff has been figured out, there is speculation that they have gotten further apart in other issues. They are still talking, so there's hope. But simply put, everyone cares more about adding millions to their existing millions than they do about getting the game back to the fans.

One of the biggest scams in pro sports is that the owners and players have the fans believing they really care about them. I'm sure there are some owners and players that honestly do care about fans, but in the end this is a business and it's all about the money, which case "fans be damned".

[T&P_Fan]

This is a long ways from getting done. Owners almost broke off talks yesterday and while some stuff has been figured out, there is speculation that they have gotten further apart in other issues. They are still talking, so there's hope. But simply put, everyone cares more about adding millions to their existing millions than they do about getting the game back to the fans.

FWIW:

Chris Botta ‏@ChrisBottaNHL

NHL possibly playing on Christmas? Good to see we're past core economic issues and on to minor Clauses.

Chris Botta ‏@ChrisBottaNHL

Talks set up well for Bettman/Fehr return, NHL to still get big concessions, players to still make big $ and play to begin Dec. 26.

Also, the only owner that wanted to break off talks was Jacobs, that miserable SOB. All the other owners convinced him to stay. I think this think is pretty close to getting done.

[T&P_Fan]

One of the biggest scams in pro sports is that the owners and players have the fans believing they really care about them. I'm sure there are some owners and players that honestly do care about fans, but in the end this is a business and it's all about the money, which case "fans be damned".

I think, though, that most reasonable fans of sports know this going in. I am aware they are running a business and know that they want to make as much money as possible. I am not offended by it, I think it stinks, but in most cases it follows a successful business model.

The NHL is hard for me to judge, Bettman has been a key cog in making sure hockey has been stopped three times during his time as commish. It is truly unfortunate the way Bettman has allowed three work stoppages in his time.

[lesgoblu02]

Renaud Lavoie ‏@RenLavoieRDS
Talks went so bad in the afternoon yesterday, I've been told by 2 sources, owners were ready to stop this bargaining process.

David Pagnotta ‏@TheFourthPeriod
CBA talks have without a doubt intensified. Emotions have returned. Told some issues "hit a wall" yesterday. More here:

Katie Strang ‏@KatieStrangESPN
#CBA One source characterized yesterday's session as "bizarre," and said two sides closer in some ways, further apart on others

Katie Strang ‏@KatieStrangESPN
#CBA Told by multiple sources there is growing concern within union about current format moving fwd. Wants no restrictions on who is in room

Katie Strang ‏@KatieStrangESPN
#CBA Some feel current format could be ploy to drive wedge into and divide union membership and isolate from leadership.

Not saying it won't get done. But this is nowhere close to being a slam dunk.

Not to mention, Fehr and Bettman are about to get involved again. That's never a good sign.

[T&P_Fan]

Not saying it won't get done. But this is nowhere close to being a slam dunk.

Not to mention, Fehr and Bettman are about to get involved again. That's never a good sign.

Well, everyone knows that the t's can't be crossed and I's can't be dotted without Bettman and Fehr.

I think the NHL has made some concessions, the players need to accept contract length for both the CBA and playing contracts and this deal will be done.

We will know soon, if they break off without a deal before the weekend I think we could see a missed season.

[T&P_Fan]

KatieStrangESPN Katie Strang
#CBA NHLPA to meet/talk internally this morning. Two sides then slated to reconvene this afternoon.

Hopefully they will have good news sometime this evening.

[lordstanley]

Not saying it won't get done. But this is nowhere close to being a slam dunk.

.

For sure. Today will still be a very tense day. If anyone can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory it is the NHL and the NHLPA.

[T&P_Fan]

For sure. Today will still be a very tense day. If anyone can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory it is the NHL and the NHLPA.

No doubt. Seems like the optimism from yesterday is fading. If they don't make a deal I will be very disappointed.

[T&P_Fan]

@TSNBobMcKenzie: Many players here don't like what's on table - "what's in it for us" mantra - but many others not here say this could be a workable deal.

@Real_ESPNLeBrun: And if I had to weigh Mr. Optimism vs. Captain Negative this morning, I'd favor the odds on Captain Negative

@TSNBobMcKenzie: Talk to some owners/NHL people, sense is this blows up today. Talk to other owners who say no way we lose season over these differences.

I just want hockey back.

[lesgoblu02]

Funny (or sad I guess) thing is, I don't even care about the NHL. It's going to take a long time before I care again. I just want this lockout to end so my AHL team isn't the least talented team in the division anymore.

[T&P_Fan]

Funny (or sad I guess) thing is, I don't even care about the NHL. It's going to take a long time before I care again. I just want this lockout to end so my AHL team isn't the least talented team in the division anymore.

Is this because they don't have many young NHLers playing and others do? I know the Marlies have at least 2 players that would be playing for the Leafs if there was NHL at this point.

I just want to be able to watch the Maple Leafs attempt to make the playoffs for the first time in nearly a decade.

[drownwithyou]

Good man. Long Time Coming acoustic would be great to hear, if the arena stayed at all quiet for it, and Morello always is a strong addition to Death To My Hometown. Bruce's Vancouver show last week was #27 for me.

Morello's solo on Ghost of Tom Joad was pretty amazing. This was only Bruce concert #2 for me, my parents have been to quite a lot.

[lesgoblu02]

Is this because they don't have many young NHLers playing and others do? I know the Marlies have at least 2 players that would be playing for the Leafs if there was NHL at this point.

I just want to be able to watch the Maple Leafs attempt to make the playoffs for the first time in nearly a decade.

Exactly.

OKC has Schultz, RNH, Hall, and Eberle
Charlotte has Faulk
Houston has a ton of 1st rounders that have a very good chance of making the Wild (Coyle, Zucker, Granlund, Brodin)
Texas has Cody Eakin, Vincour, and Brendan Dillon

All of Florida's high end talented youth is either in college (Bjugstad, Grimaldi, Matheson) or too young to play in the AHL (Huberdeau, Trochek).

[T&P_Fan]

Exactly.

OKC has Schultz, RNH, Hall, and Eberle
Charlotte has Faulk
Houston has a ton of 1st rounders that have a very good chance of making the Wild (Coyle, Zucker, Granlund, Brodin)
Texas has Cody Eakin, Vincour, and Brendan Dillon

All of Florida's high end talented youth is either in college (Bjugstad, Grimaldi, Matheson) or too young to play in the AHL (Huberdeau, Trochek).

Nice that you get to see all those players. When I lived in Grand Rapids I would go to Griffins games all the time, McCarty played once and got a hat trick. The Griffins have dollar beer and dollar hot dog night on Friday nights, and I lived within walking distance to Van Andel, it was great.

[T&P_Fan]

Brian Lawton- Don't get bogged down in the drama playing out today, which sure 2 continue, deal gets done, both parties see finish line! @NHL @NHLPA #CBA

Let's hope he is right.

[T&P_Fan]

KatieStrangESPN Katie Strang
#CBA Told that two sides have "tentatively" agreed to meet this afternoon

Real_ESPNLeBrun Pierre LeBrun
Players from around the league have called into internal NHLPA meetings all day long... Crunch time. Big decisions being made on next step

Well looks like they are doing a straw poll on the players to see if they can get this thing done.

[lordstanley]

What happens in so many union negotiations is that the union leader makes the corporation out to be the bogeyman and focuses on what the workers are giving up and and they try to convince the rank and file (and the media) that it's not about money, it's about principle and respect. It's always about money. Really, the players shouldn't take things so personally, that's just playing into the hands of lawyers and financiers who look at this more coldly.

If the players focus on how much more they've given up compared to the owners (which is the case) and get offended by that, there might not be a deal. But if they act pragmatically, and take a deep breath, really how many of the 700 players are affected by a) contracts being restricted to 5 years, or 7 years in the case of re-signings; or b) a 10-year length to the CBA? I bet that's Fehr fighting hardest for those items or convincing the players that it could or should be a deal-breaker. Yeah, the owners probably should go up to 6 years on the contracts and say knock the CBA length down by a year or two, just to get a deal done, but if they don't .. I think the players would be foolish not to accept anyways. Not fair to expect a player of today to give up a year's salary in the middle of a say 7-year career in order to maybe help future union members by having a CBA expire in 2023 rather than 2021. When are the players going to get a better deal than right now?

And if they look at the big picture, NHL players are still doing amazingly well, average salary-wise, compared to NFL and MLB players, given the relatively popularities of the sports.

[lordstanley]

As I suspected ...

The Spin

The length of the next CBA has become a major issue. It shouldn't be, as 10 years makes a lot of sense to give this sport a chance to grow without the threat of labour stoppages.

"I love 10 years. Hell, I'd take 12 years," said one player agent, who said he believes there's enough in the mix now to make a deal today.

Fehr, however, seems against the idea, arguing that so many players will have changed over the next five years that its not fair to stick them with a deal they didn't negotiate.

Surely, that can't be the dealbreaker. But at this point, really, what should be?

And Matthew Barnaby's Twitter:

Matthew Barnaby ‏@MattBarnaby3636
Only one that could mess this up is Fehr and we are headed down that road. I still haven't lost hope but....

[Oblong]

As I suspected ...

The Spin



And Matthew Barnaby's Twitter:

Matthew Barnaby ‏@MattBarnaby3636
Only one that could mess this up is Fehr and we are headed down that road. I still haven't lost hope but....

I would think 10 is good for players because the owners are idiots and in 5 years will be in same boat.

[lordstanley]

From Adrien Dater of the Denver Post, who has consistently classified himself as being pro-union:

Doug MacLean, Nick Kypreos get into shouting match on radio

Unreal. It’s the word of the day for me. As I write, it appears as if the NHL CBA talks are blowing up again. Owners are “furious” at Donald Fehr, one top industry source told me. The biggest reason? They think he’s stalling again by wanting to bring in mediators again to the talks. That, and a list of other grievances, including essentially “injecting” himself and what owners consider his giant ego into the middle of things just when the sides looked like they were getting along and closing in on a deal.

[lordstanley]

Damien Cox ‏@DamoSpin
Players can't blame Bettman at this point. He hasn't been in a single meeting this week.

Terry Jones ‏@sunterryjones
Hey Shanahan. Suspend Fehr. Delay of games.

adater ‏@adater
I've been pro-union most of the way,but I truly feel Fehr is messing up by pushing for peanut differences. Risk of losing all peanuts real

adater ‏@adater
Hold a vote Don. Love to see the results of a secret ballot. Would love to

[lordstanley]

Fehr's press conference over. He wasn't horrible, much better than I feared. I think it is very close. "we have an agreement on dollars"
This is the most positive I have seen the TSN panel.

[T&P_Fan]

Fehr's press conference over. He wasn't horrible, much better than I feared. I think it is very close. "we have an agreement on dollars"
This is the most positive I have seen the TSN panel.

Finally some good news. I just got home, started reading this thread from where I left off and then I see a bunch of doom and gloom. Fehr is a peckerhead. Just get this deal done.

[drownwithyou]

NHL says NOPE.

[lordstanley]

Talks have broken off.

[T&P_Fan]

LeBrun says talks have broke. What the hell happened? All seemed well until Fehr got involved.

[lordstanley]

I'm not that concerned. The gap is too small. The NHL is counting on media and former players convincing players to take the NHL's offer as is.

[lordstanley]

If the players want to decertify over a 3-year gap in contract length and a 4-year gap on CBA term, go for it. I'll follow other sports and the players can head to the cushy KHL in rich,modern Russia or can sell skates for a living at Canadian Tire.

[lordstanley]

As Pierre McGure would say, the moderate owners are apoplectic. Dreger says Tanenbaum was so ticked he was turning purple.

KuklasKorner

[lordstanley]

adater ‏@adater
From deep inside players side: "We were ready to play again. But Don came in (Wed.) and told us we could get more and to hold out"

Michael Russo ‏@Russostrib
Players hire Fehr to potentially lose 100% of their salaries, precious time in a short career and decertify their union? #goodhire

[lordstanley]

Duhatschek: Latest breakdown reminiscent of 2004 - The Globe and Mail

According to Bettman’s math, there are now 90 players on contracts that run six years or longer, compared to just one in 2006, when the last CBA took effect. Still, the most damaging contracts are the ones that run eight-years plus, of which there are just 22. And only 16 players out of about 750 are on contracts that run 10 years or longer (roughly just over 2 per cent of the workforce).

Is it worth losing a season over a CBA provision that affects so few – keeping in mind players who have these long-term commitments are usually the NHL’s top earners and thus would make oodles of cash, even on short-term deals? It seems wholly unnecessary – and yet, the gap in 2004 seemed manageable at the 11th hour, too.

One thing is clear from 2004 - the NHL's lawyers goofed big-time in not limiting cap-circumventing contract lengths at that time. Contracts longer than 5 years didn't even exist at the time of the last lockout.

[lordstanley]

From Don Cherry, who doesn't tweet all that often.

16m Don Cherry ‏@CoachsCornerCBC
I have known Gary Bettman since he was named commissioner. I have never seen him so livid as he was tonight at the press conference...

15m Don Cherry ‏@CoachsCornerCBC
..He was almost shaking. That was no act. There were owners who I'll call doves who were against the hawks. The hawks said ok we'll do it..

14m Don Cherry ‏@CoachsCornerCBC
your way and the doves put an extra 100 million on the table and when the association said ok but... The doves turned into hawks themselves

Don Cherry ‏@CoachsCornerCBC
I believe the hardliners said to the doves ok we did it your way and the association thinks we are weak.. Now we'll do it our way....

[lordstanley]

Darren Dreger:

There are players and player agents out there who think Fehr is trying to crash this deal.

[T&P_Fan]

None of this sounds good. It appears that the players are looking at Don Fehr and saying, "What the hell dude?"

So why question is, what the hell dude? Owners and players alike seem to be pointing the finger at Fehr. Get him the hell out of there and get back to work, the owners came far enough in my opinion. This is on the players and their idiotic resolve to keep Fehr in charge.

[lordstanley]

I'm surprised by the players' unity, at least publicly, over the past few days. I would have bet on them splintering and pushing to take last week's deal. Still, all that's preventing a deal now is face-saving. Steve Fehr and Bill Daly need to meet privately, one on one, and spend an afternoon hammering out an agreement.

Don Fehr spoke at a CAW (Canadian Auto Workers) gathering yesterday. Apparently the membership ate it up. But I would have been insulted by it. My dad was a CAW/UAW member for 30 years and I was for a few years, and to think there's anything at all in common between the player grievances and those of autoworkers is a stretch. In fact, this lockout has hurt a few working stiffs such as arena crews and restaurant staff.

[Lousluggage]

I just heard the season has been cancelled until December 30th now.... :( if true.

[T&P_Fan]

I just heard the season has been cancelled until December 30th now.... :( if true.

Yeah, definitely true. So if they can get it started by Jan 1st and they play 48 games that means they would have to play just about every other day for the playoffs to start the 2nd week of April.

What a gong show the leaders from both sides have turned this lockout into. Three labor stoppages in less than 20 years. How can Bettman say he is doing the best for the game? How can the players? Everyone is at fault here.