Higgs Boson Particle found!!!

**Dawgs** · 07-01-2012, 01:37 PM

The Higgs Boson or "God particle" has been found to 99.99% certainty as will be announced by CERN on Wednesday. This particle gives all others mass. Huge huge find in particle physics. May be the greatest breakthrough in scientific history.

God particle is 'found': Scientists at Cern expected to announce Higgs boson particle has been discovered on Wednesday | Mail Online

**smr-nj** · 07-01-2012, 03:34 PM

However, despite 1,600 trillion collisions being created in the tunnel - there have been fewer than 300 potential Higgs particles.

Trying to wrap my head around just this sentence made my nose bleed.

It is an amazing event. I will, however, have to wait for somebody who can really, REALLY simplify an explanation for me before I can share in the excitement.

But, kudos to these brilliant scientists.

**sagnam** · 07-01-2012, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by smr-nj

Trying to wrap my head around just this sentence made my nose bleed.

It is an amazing event. I will, however, have to wait for somebody who can really, REALLY simplify an explanation for me before I can share in the excitement.

But, kudos to these brilliant scientists.

It's a long video, but at 27:18 they introduce the guy who thought of it, Peter Higgs and explain what it's about. I suggest watching the entire video so it makes sense.

Through the Wormhole is an awesome series.

**Dawgs** · 07-01-2012, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by smr-nj

Trying to wrap my head around just this sentence made my nose bleed.

It is an amazing event. I will, however, have to wait for somebody who can really, REALLY simplify an explanation for me before I can share in the excitement.

But, kudos to these brilliant scientists.

Im an engineer not a physicist but my understanding is that without the Higgs Boson lending mass to all other particles these particles would have flown off into spaceat the speed of light after the Big Bang without a chance to clump up into what we know as the universe- atoms, molecules, stars, solar systems, galaxies, galaxy clusters, etc. Therefore it is known as the "god particle" because in a way it created the universe.

Practical applications are unknown and probably will be for several decades, possibly centuries, but it is a big part of the Standard Model of the creation of the universe and finding it shows were on the right path. I guess in the distant future its existence could be used in some form of faster than light travel, being used to form a warp bubble in the 11th dimension in M-Theory by shrinking space in front of a craft while expanding it behind. The craft doesnt move, space does thereby getting around Einsteins theories that point out nothing can travel faster than light. Very science fictiony but there are theories out there that suggest the possibility.

**Antrat** · 07-01-2012, 05:29 PM

I knew there were rumors that they had found the particle.
Great news to see it confirmed.

**hueytaxi** · 07-01-2012, 05:39 PM

FF 4 makes you younger.

**clark1mt** · 07-01-2012, 05:47 PM

It was under the sofa the whole time.

**Blue Square Thing** · 07-01-2012, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Dawgs

Therefore it is known as the "god particle" because in a way it created the universe.

I seem to recall that that's based on a deliberate misquote though isn't it?

Lederman, apparently, wanted to call it the "God damn particle" because it was darned tricky to pin down, but was refused by the editors of whatever he was writing (see Meet Peter Higgs, father of the 'God Particle' | Science | The Guardian for example). Quite whether this is exactly the way it was is another thing of course.

**Blue Square Thing** · 07-01-2012, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by smr-nj

Trying to wrap my head around just this sentence made my nose bleed.

Hey, though, get this from a lovely short New Scientist article about the possible findings being presented:

In the meantime, a new analysis from the BaBar experiment, which ran at the SLAC National Accelerator Lab in California until 2008, suggests the standard model [of physics] is not what it seems.

According to the model, a particle called the B meson, studied by BaBar, decays to produce particles including a W boson, which then decays further into a tau particle and a tau neutrino. Now BaBar reports B mesons decaying into tau particles more often than the standard model predicts.

See? ;-)

Fwiw, I'll wait and read what actually gets presented before jumping off the deep end on this. There'll be just as many questions as answers anyway.

**Dawgs** · 07-02-2012, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by Blue Square Thing

I seem to recall that that's based on a deliberate misquote though isn't it?

Lederman, apparently, wanted to call it the "God damn particle" because it was darned tricky to pin down, but was refused by the editors of whatever he was writing (see Meet Peter Higgs, father of the 'God Particle' | Science | The Guardian for example). Quite whether this is exactly the way it was is another thing of course.

Could be I was relying off memory from a class I had a long time ago. It may have been just the professors interpretation too. Youth is impressionable.

**Dawgs** · 07-02-2012, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by Blue Square Thing

Hey, though, get this from a lovely short New Scientist article about the possible findings being presented:

See? ;-)

Fwiw, I'll wait and read what actually gets presented before jumping off the deep end on this. There'll be just as many questions as answers anyway.

I am reasonably sure though that the importance of the Higgs is that it lends mass to every other particle. Without it there is no mass and all other particles fly off at the speed of light never forming the universe as we know it.

**Dawgs** · 07-02-2012, 07:05 AM

Actually my last post may be a bit off. The Higgs field lends mass when a particle passes through it and the bosun is this field in an excited state. Ive had alot of physics but it was all undergrad. Anything in depth on these particles is grad student studies. So my understanding is less than complete.

**John_Brian_K** · 07-02-2012, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Dawgs

I am reasonably sure though that the importance of the Higgs is that it lends mass to every other particle. Without it there is no mass and all other particles fly off at the speed of light never forming the universe as we know it.

I thought that was carbon?

HUGE find here. I still get nervous talking about or thinking about CERN though.....I get flashes of 'The Mist' or some of those shows on the SciFi channel or Discovery or something that show the earth blowing up in some animation or some weird incarnation like in 'Event Horizon'.

**shabba4detroit** · 07-02-2012, 10:34 AM

Update! Scientists let my kids play with the higgs bosun particle and now it is lost again.

**Walt** · 07-02-2012, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by John_Brian_K

I thought that was carbon?

Wha?

**Oblong** · 07-02-2012, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Dawgs

May be the greatest breakthrough in scientific history.

Why? How will this knowledge impact my life or the life of my great grandkids? Not being argumentative, I'm just unclear as to the benefits of this.

**Biff Mayhem** · 07-02-2012, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Oblong

Why? How will this knowledge impact my life or the life of my great grandkids? Not being argumentative, I'm just unclear as to the benefits of this.

Go on with the Chlorophyll!

**Walt** · 07-02-2012, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Oblong

Why? How will this knowledge impact my life or the life of my great grandkids? Not being argumentative, I'm just unclear as to the benefits of this.

It is a great piece of fundamental knowledge. Being able to understand this is on par, IMO, with determining what causes life. And we may not even have to invent a deity/religion to poorly explain it.

**Walt** · 07-02-2012, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Biff Mayhem

Go on with the Chlorophyll!

More like Bore-a-phyll, am I right?

**Biff Mayhem** · 07-02-2012, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by Walt

More like Bore-a-phyll, am I right?

No I will not make out with you.

**Yoda** · 07-02-2012, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by Oblong

Why? How will this knowledge impact my life or the life of my great grandkids? Not being argumentative, I'm just unclear as to the benefits of this.

The Tigers winning the World Series won't impact you or your great grandkids' lives either, so ho-hum.

It's exciting to scientists just as the Tigers winning is exciting to you. Nobody said it's going to change your daily way of living.

**Joe Gahona** · 07-02-2012, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Yoda

The Tigers winning the World Series won't impact you or your great grandkids' lives either, so ho-hum.

It's exciting to scientists just as the Tigers winning is exciting to you. Nobody said it's going to change your daily way of living.

I was wondering the same thing as Oblong. I don't take it as "ho-hum," just curious what this means in layman's terms.

**John_Brian_K** · 07-02-2012, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Oblong

Why? How will this knowledge impact my life or the life of my great grandkids? Not being argumentative, I'm just unclear as to the benefits of this.

In other news discovering the world was not flat really didn't change the every day lives of the people in that era.....errrr....wait.

**shabba4detroit** · 07-02-2012, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Dawgs

May be the greatest breakthrough in scientific history.

Greater than the mastery of fire? The invention of the wheel? Heavier than air flight? Vaccines, antibiotics and sulfa drugs? How will this possibly impact my life? What makes this breakthrough so great?

**RedRamage** · 07-02-2012, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Yoda

The Tigers winning the World Series won't impact you or your great grandkids' lives either, so ho-hum.

It's exciting to scientists just as the Tigers winning is exciting to you. Nobody said it's going to change your daily way of living.

Okay, sure, but the Tigers winning the WS, while exciting and fun and all that, would not, in my opinion as a sports fan, rank up there as "May be the greatest breakthrough in sports history" or something like that. I would assume something labeled as "May be the greatest breakthrough in scientific history" to have some tangible importance.

Now, I'm not saying that it will have importance in the sense of "Now we can build more fuel efficient cars" or "Now we can cure Cancer." But I would expect there to be some level of "Now that we have 'x', that will lead to a better understand of 'y' and allow us to do better research into 'z' which will eventually mean that we can make A or cure B, etc. Don't get me wrong... I understand this is exciting to those in this field and those interested in this stuff. But again... I would expect "May be the greatest breakthrough in scientific history" to have some sort of tangible importance.

Now a few side questions for those of us not in the field:

1. Do other particles not have mass? The info seems to suggest that if not for these particles everything else would zip along at light speed... which suggests zero mass (I don't think you can achieve light speed if you have mass, right?)

2. If these particles have always assumed to be in place (at least since they were originally proposed), how does finding them change how we think about them?

**John_Brian_K** · 07-02-2012, 11:40 AM

How the Discovery of the Higgs Boson Could Break Physics | Wired Science | Wired.com

**sagnam** · 07-02-2012, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by RedRamage

Okay, sure, but the Tigers winning the WS, while exciting and fun and all that, would not, in my opinion as a sports fan, rank up there as "May be the greatest breakthrough in sports history" or something like that. I would assume something labeled as "May be the greatest breakthrough in scientific history" to have some tangible importance.

Now, I'm not saying that it will have importance in the sense of "Now we can build more fuel efficient cars" or "Now we can cure Cancer." But I would expect there to be some level of "Now that we have 'x', that will lead to a better understand of 'y' and allow us to do better research into 'z' which will eventually mean that we can make A or cure B, etc. Don't get me wrong... I understand this is exciting to those in this field and those interested in this stuff. But again... I would expect "May be the greatest breakthrough in scientific history" to have some sort of tangible importance.

Now a few side questions for those of us not in the field:

1. Do other particles not have mass? The info seems to suggest that if not for these particles everything else would zip along at light speed... which suggests zero mass (I don't think you can achieve light speed if you have mass, right?)

2. If these particles have always assumed to be in place (at least since they were originally proposed), how does finding them change how we think about them?

Watch the video I posted.

**Oblong** · 07-02-2012, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Yoda

The Tigers winning the World Series won't impact you or your great grandkids' lives either, so ho-hum.

It's exciting to scientists just as the Tigers winning is exciting to you. Nobody said it's going to change your daily way of living.

actually it would impact my life as I'd have probably spent a few thousand dollars.

The sports analogy fails because you don't have to care about sports and many people do not. It's a hobby. Entertainment. Science is more than that. Science involves everybody. I would think in the hierarchy of scientific breakthroughs those that impact human beings ability to live and to improve our lives far outranks something that's simply a theory but has no practical use, which is what I asked for here, not in a snarky way. So a claim that something is the greatest scientific breakthrough in history warrants an explanation as to how it will affect me.

I read the wired.com article that was posted and didn't get anything out of it.

I do think the snippy and condescending remark from another person here was unwarranted. Makes me wonder if that's the fuss?

**Antrat** · 07-02-2012, 12:48 PM

Oh man, my bad!
I totally misunderstood what this was about.
I thought this was that thing they were working on that would make milk last four months before it went bad.
Carry on.

**Biff Mayhem** · 07-02-2012, 12:49 PM

**sagnam** · 07-02-2012, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Oblong

actually it would impact my life as I'd have probably spent a few thousand dollars.

The sports analogy fails because you don't have to care about sports and many people do not. It's a hobby. Entertainment. Science is more than that. Science involves everybody. I would think in the hierarchy of scientific breakthroughs those that impact human beings ability to live and to improve our lives far outranks something that's simply a theory but has no practical use, which is what I asked for here, not in a snarky way. So a claim that something is the greatest scientific breakthrough in history warrants an explanation as to how it will affect me.

I read the wired.com article that was posted and didn't get anything out of it.

I do think the snippy and condescending remark from another person here was unwarranted. Makes me wonder if that's the fuss?

I think in this case the discovery that the world was round is a good comparison. For the average Joe in that day it meant nothing. For you and me today that discovery was very important.

**Oblong** · 07-02-2012, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by sagnam

I think in this case the discovery that the world was round is a good comparison. For the average Joe in that day it meant nothing. For you and me today that discovery was very important.

It didn't mean nothing because it's confirmation opened up trade between east/west. I wouldn't put the theory or discovery of a spherical earth anywher near the top of scientific discoveries. That's what I was specifically addressing. Sounds to me like we've spent decades and billions looking for something and they think they found evidence of it, but not it.

Does this have any long term effects or is it jus a philisophical thing?

**sagnam** · 07-02-2012, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Oblong

It didn't mean nothing because it's confirmation opened up trade between east/west. I wouldn't put the theory or discovery of a spherical earth anywher near the top of scientific discoveries. That's what I was specifically addressing. Sounds to me like we've spent decades and billions looking for something and they think they found evidence of it, but not it.

Does this have any long term effects or is it jus a philisophical thing?

Considering that it was believed that the Earth was round all the way back to the Greeks, I fail to see who benefited directly from it until circumnavigation was possible thousands of years later. Doesn't make it any less important. There were many theories and discoveries based off that belief, some of those did benefit the people of the day.

**Oblong** · 07-02-2012, 02:15 PM

Yes, many believed the earth was round, the theories, but they didn't "discover" it was round until much later. These scientists believe in this particle.... now they think they have it. Ok. Great. Now what? But with the earth is round stuff it, it would have happened on it's own as we started to venture further and further out. It wasn't really a dsicovery. Even if nobody thought the earth was flat life woudln't be much different.

My question about this particle is what does it mean for us in practicle terms? Perhaps we won't know for another 300 years.

**sagnam** · 07-02-2012, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by Oblong

Yes, many believed the earth was round, the theories, but they didn't "discover" it was round until much later. These scientists believe in this particle.... now they think they have it. Ok. Great. Now what? But with the earth is round stuff it, it would have happened on it's own as we started to venture further and further out. It wasn't really a dsicovery. Even if nobody thought the earth was flat life woudln't be much different.

My question about this particle is what does it mean for us in practicle terms? Perhaps we won't know for another 300 years.

There is a hole in the Standard Model. The Higgs boson particle theory fills the hole. Evidence to support the theory fills the hole in the Standard Model.

**John_Brian_K** · 07-02-2012, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by Oblong

actually it would impact my life as I'd have probably spent a few thousand dollars.

The sports analogy fails because you don't have to care about sports and many people do not. It's a hobby. Entertainment. Science is more than that. Science involves everybody. I would think in the hierarchy of scientific breakthroughs those that impact human beings ability to live and to improve our lives far outranks something that's simply a theory but has no practical use, which is what I asked for here, not in a snarky way. So a claim that something is the greatest scientific breakthrough in history warrants an explanation as to how it will affect me.

I read the wired.com article that was posted and didn't get anything out of it.

I do think the snippy and condescending remark from another person here was unwarranted. Makes me wonder if that's the fuss?

If you are referring to me ....it was just a joke.

**Oblong** · 07-02-2012, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by John_Brian_K

If you are referring to me ....it was just a joke.

No, I wasn't.

**John_Brian_K** · 07-02-2012, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by Oblong

No, I wasn't.

ok

**Blue Square Thing** · 07-03-2012, 02:06 AM

Originally Posted by shabba4detroit

Update! Scientists let my kids play with the higgs bosun particle and now it is lost again.

What, they didn't break it within 5 minutes? Mine would have...

**Blue Square Thing** · 07-03-2012, 02:17 AM

Originally Posted by shabba4detroit

Greater than the mastery of fire? The invention of the wheel? Heavier than air flight? Vaccines, antibiotics and sulfa drugs? How will this possibly impact my life? What makes this breakthrough so great?

In terms of immediate day to day practical terms, probably nothing.

In purely theoretical terms, however, this is would be a stunning breakthrough which would suggest that the standard model is in the right postcode. It might lead nowhere directly practical by itself at all, but it's really a fundamental aspect of some of the stuff people have been speculating about for years and years.

In many ways it would also demonstrate experimental science working. That's quite an important and interesting thing to be doing just now in itself.