Week 6: UM @ MSU

[SpartanValor]

Ghoston-gate is getting ESPN headlines. The article about "MSU reviewing the tape" was one of the frontpage stories yesterday. They have it on SportsNation now

Will Spartans suspend William Gholston? - SportsNation - ESPN

Nearly 80% of voters think he should be suspended at least one game (almost 40% think multiple games).

46% think state wont suspend him though because they are playing Wisconsin

69% think he is a dirty player (oddly enough 43% of Michigan think he is dirty)

Go out and win next week against Wisconsin so Michigan football teams can get out of the news for non-sportsmanlke behavior, Ive heard enough about Gholston and Schwartz lately.

What are the corresponding numbers for Ndamukong Suh? I would take both of those guys on my team in a heartbeat.

And I love the attention. I hope Russell Wilson is afraid we're going to rip his head off. I love the intimidation and mental aspect of things. I love that postgame we broke it down with "woodshed" --beautifully fitting description of what happened on Saturday.

Sure beats the charmin soft era of JLS, or Michigan down the road. Not a lot of people use the word "mean" to describe those defenses.

[Johnny Mac]

Well I mostly agree with you other than the comparison to Suh. All of Suh's plays have been football related plays he went too far on. Gholston's plays were dead ball plays involving contact that is not football related. Even Suh's most violent, and probably most dirty hit against Cleveland, he was still trying to bring a QB to the ground during a play. There was no, as Id say, football related excuse for Gholston's plays. He also isn't anywhere near the player Suh is, so the intimidation factor is not the same. Im sure Wisconsin would love Gholston to play like he did against Michigan, a bunch of free yardage for them.

Im real interested to see how MSU looks this weekend. Russell Wilson is the first QB that I would consider a top tier QB that they have played. Denard is a top tier playmaker, but his passing ability leaves a ton to be desired. Wilson can run and can throw. Their defense has looked real good thus far and I am real interested to see what they do against a top offense. Should be a good game.

[Who is the Drizzle?]

Wisconsin is the team that made comments about intentionally chop blocking Mike Martin when he went out with injury.

So I guess it's lucky Gholston only pissed Michigan off.

[SpartanValor]

Are you saying people dont consider Suh to be a dirty player?

[JayVee]

To me, in order to earn the term "dirty" there has to be a history. Is there a history with Gholston? Or is it just this one game?

[Johnny Mac]

Are you saying people dont consider Suh to be a dirty player?

Not nearly as many as Gholston, who was at 69%

I found this, where only 12% said Suh's play is over the line

Is Ndamukong Suh a dirty player? - SportsNation - ESPN

[pyrotigers]

Suh has had one really bad play in his entire career (the first preseason QB throwdown) Gholston had 3 in one game.

Hey, on a related note

What's the Dirtiest College-Football Rivalry? - WSJ.com

Michigan State have nearly single handedly made Michigan/MSU one of the dirtiest rivalries in college football. Now, I'm no coach, but MSU also started winning games when this happened. Could personal fouls be a key to winning games? Hard to believe it could be a coincidence

[Johnny Mac]

3? I only recall 2, but being at the game its hard to see what is going on

[JayVee]

I know others have said this before, but the helmet twisting was way more egregious in my mind. The punch was obviously provoked. No one but the most oblivious of UM supporters would disagree with that. I'm not excusing it, of course, but it was a natural reaction to what happened and what may or may not have been said.

Clearly, the twist had much more potential for injury. Not saying that he was trying to injure Denard (I'm not saying he wasn't either), but either way that kind of play cannot be tolerated. And there's no way I would expect anyone to believe it was incidental (not sure if anyone's arguing that, anyway...)

On a related note, is it possible to physically injure somebody with a punch to the shoulder? I imagine the pads would take most of the blow... would a punch like that actually hurt?

[JayVee]

Yeah, pyro, what was the third play?

[MSUBrian11]

Enough with the Gholston talk guys. Ignore the UM fans, and start talking about the Wisconsin game.

There is no point in arguing with them

[lionstigersand...]

I essentially agree with brian, at this point there's little to be garnered from continuing discussion along these lines...That said, the greatest irony in all this mess is that the recipient of Gholston's straight right actually IS a suspect football player! Now this doesn't indemnify Gholston; he deserves additional punishments for TWO of his penalties. As for the "arm-bar"...Forget about it! When you hold and get your hands up as much as Lewan does, you're gonna get your arms raked, wrenched, tugged...Such is football. Cry about something else Michigan.

I'd also disagree with he notion that Cousins was anything less than impressive last Saturday. He was on...Period.

[CapitalTigers]

I think a team being classified as 'dirty' in the hardest contact sport in the World is rather humorous on a number of counts. For one, it discounts the ability of the referee to police the game. If it's a penalty aka dirty, then it's a flagged play. If it's not, then it was permissible or not 'seen' per the rule books.

To throw the terms around that a team is dirty usually stems from a team that couldn't beat their opponent. Dick Butkus has many stories of pile ups for a fumble I'm sure you can read online. It's just a matter of a team being called for it or not.

[CapitalTigers]

I'd be fascinated to read a poll of how many U of M fans actually attended U of M.

[Johnny Mac]

I'd be fascinated to read a poll of how many U of M fans actually attended U of M.

I thought it was funny that MSU fans were ripping Wal Mart Wolverines that I was with on Saturday. And only two of the six of them actually went to MSU.

Its been discussed before, but I dont get the whole thing anyway. So you are telling me that everyone who didn't go to college or attended a school that is not d1 cant root for a college football team? Even if they rooted for them for 10+ years before college was even an option?

[mr0zip0]

I'd be fascinated to read a poll of how many U of M fans actually attended U of M.

Keep in mind academics and tuition when you say that...

University of Michigan - Ann Arbor Campus
Average GPA: 3.8
Average ACT: 29
Cost in-state: ~$25,000

Michigan State University
Average GPA: 3.4
Average ACT: 25
Cost in-state: ~$21,000

There are a lot of football fans who aren't smart enough or aren't privledged enough to get into MSU, let alone U of M... That doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to root for a college football team.

If you wanna know, I'm a High School Junior right now... My GPA is a 3.7 and my ACT projected is about a 32... I'm hoping to get into U of M - School of Kinesiology for a major in Sports Management, but it is highly competitive... If I don't get in and end up going to Oakland Community College for 2 years, it won't stop me from being a Michigan football fan.

[Scottish caveman]

I thought there was a Michigan thread and a Michigan State thread.....this banter is so BORING! Have a seperate thread and go at it...just so I can avoid this rigamarole !!

[MSUBrian11]

If you wanna know, I'm a High School Junior right now... My GPA is a 3.7 and my ACT projected is about a 32... I'm hoping to get into U of M - School of Kinesiology for a major in Sports Management, but it is highly competitive... If I don't get in and end up going to Oakland Community College for 2 years, it won't stop me from being a Michigan football fan.

Not trying to be a dick or anything, but isn't that kind of a waste of money? Going to UM for a Sports Management degree? Seems like your a smart kid, wouldn't it be better value to try to get into the Ross School of Business, or even try majoring in Engineering? Ross is one of the top business schools in the country, and you would be set for life with a job if you graduate from that program. Same goes with their Engineering program. Sports Management, not so much. Good luck to whatever you do though

[CapitalTigers]

Did I say that you're not aloud to root for a team unless you've gone there? Nope.

I just was pointing out the fact that it seems very prevelent that many (read most) U of M fans never have taken a single course there, but became a fan during their prominence in Michigan. Now that Michigan State University is the dominant sports team in the state it's kind of ironic the change of sports prestige.

[Johnny Mac]

Did I say that you're not aloud to root for a team unless you've gone there? Nope.

I just was pointing out the fact that it seems very prevelent that many (read most) U of M fans never have taken a single course there, but became a fan during their prominence in Michigan. Now that Michigan State University is the dominant sports team in the state it's kind of ironic the change of sports prestige.

I wouldnt call MSU the dominant sports team in the state based on 4 years, especially since Michigan had won 6 in a row right before that. But they have sure closed the gap. State would have to have some National success the way Michigan did before Id consider them to be a dominant sports program, Michigan has just taken a huge drop off. State hasn't made a BCS equivalent bowl (BCS or the bowls that make it up) since I was 2 months old and Im a college graduate in my 2nd year of law school. The youth of today have not seen MSU compete nationally.

If you are talking basketball, then yes, MSU is the dominant basketball program.

To clarify before I get ripped on saying I am ripping on MSU or something when that is not my intent, after watching Michigan and MSU play in person this Saturday, I think it is pretty clear MSU has a better football team right now. But 4 years of relative success comparatively to Michigan wouldn't change my mind over which school is the dominant program just like if Michigan beat MSU again in basketball again this year and next it would not change my mind that at least while Izzo is at MSU, they are going to be the dominant basketball program in the State.

[JayVee]

I thought it was funny that MSU fans were ripping Wal Mart Wolverines that I was with on Saturday. And only two of the six of them actually went to MSU.

Its been discussed before, but I dont get the whole thing anyway. So you are telling me that everyone who didn't go to college or attended a school that is not d1 cant root for a college football team? Even if they rooted for them for 10+ years before college was even an option?

Many of us who attended MSU, especially those of us who were close to the football and basketball teams feel an increased sense of fanaticism due to our level of devotion in time, money, and identity to the school and its sports teams. We feel, generally, that those who have not made these commitments cannot be as big of fans -- though I've accepted that that's not really for me to decide.

Conversely, we feel that many fans of other teams, especially rival teams, are bandwagon fans, or were once bandwagon fans who decided to like a team merely because it was convenient, and not because of any vested interest in them long-term. Therefore State alumni generally have at least a minor disdain for those who support the M&B out of convenience.

That said, in every conflict of teams/businesses/philosophies/etc there seems to be a counterculture of dissent to the prevailing sentiment, i.e. "I like it because it's not as cool". I think many of the MSU fans who never attended State grew up under this paradigm. Being different to be cool. Because of that bold(er) stance, we tend to give them a pass, especially if they became fans during the lean times. I can say for sure that I have felt contempt for Spartan fans at one time or another who I felt were merely bandwagon fans. I didn't identify with them nearly as much as I would have if they had attended school there. But of course it's not nearly as strong of a sentiment as it would be for the "Walverines".

For whatever reason one becomes a MSU fan, however, there is a sense of camaraderie with those who went there, for being willing to go against "the man" so to speak. I simply decided to go to MSU because I liked the campus and the proximity to friends and family. I never rooted for either team over the other before I went to MSU, in fact I didn't watch much college sports period. I could have gone to Michigan if I'd wanted; I never had that inclination. But many of the students that chose State when I was a freshman did so despite the state of the athletic program, not because of it. Of course, with the continued success of Spartan Athletics, perhaps the tables will turn a bit. Perhaps there will be thousands of kids growing up liking the Spartans because they always whoop on that school from down the road. Eventually, we may all become what we hate...

One can only hope.

[Johnny Mac]

I have no problems with locals cheering for the local teams. If you are from Michigan I could care less which local team you cheered for as long as its a local team. The people that bug me are the people from Michigan who cheer for USC or Ohio State or someone like that with no affiliation to those programs. As long as you are cheering for a local team or your alma mater (or another connection like a family member went there) I dont think there is anything wrong with it.

And a lot of people from my HS who were at MSU were Michigan fans in HS including my best friend who has season tickets who is the one taking me to games. He hates MSU more than anyone I know now, at the game it was almost like he was cheering against UM and not for MSU. His whole family was calling everyone Walmart Wolverines and none of them went to MSU. My uncle, who is as crazy a MSU fan as I know was a UM fan until he went to college and now he calls everyone walmart wolverines even though he was one until he left community college and transfered to MSU when he was 20 and his wife and family all cheer for MSU now and didnt go there. My sister who is there now current BF was a Michigan fan, he even told me freshmen year he didnt know who was cheering for. Now he is a Spartan fan. Heck, they even had a thing on campus where students could trade their Michigan shirts for State ones. I always wondered if that angle played into it a little bit. But I always did find the Walmart Wolverine fascination at MSU odd.

[mr0zip0]

Not trying to be a dick or anything, but isn't that kind of a waste of money? Going to UM for a Sports Management degree? Seems like your a smart kid, wouldn't it be better value to try to get into the Ross School of Business, or even try majoring in Engineering? Ross is one of the top business schools in the country, and you would be set for life with a job if you graduate from that program. Same goes with their Engineering program. Sports Management, not so much. Good luck to whatever you do though

Indeed, you do know UM Academics ... I didn't want to bore anyone with my life plan, which is why I didn't mention it, but if you're curious, the hope (cross fingers) is to be accepted at both Ross and Kinesiology, and to achieve a Dual Degree (which would make me a super senior - 5 years)... I'm not really into the whole engineering thing. haha....

[Johnny Mac]

By the way, random side note, I find myself caring less and less about the outcome of these games. 5 almost 6 years removed from cheering for UM, I could hardly name anyone on their team in fact I could name way more State players. I got my own team, I dont follow Michigan. My sister is at MSU now, which also caused my dad to start cheering for MSU. Ive been at Spartan Stadium 4 times past 2 years, my friends around here are mostly MSU grads. I was high fiving people after MSU's touchdown's in my section. I was also trying to talk some sense into them as well during bias drunken rage at penalties and other calls (that I also get watching games I care about). Also had neutral colors on (Lions). I just assumed having MSU win Saturday since my friends and family were all cheering for them, dont have any smart friends who went to UM jk

[monkeynuts]

I have no problem with people rooting for whoever they want, but I think that alumni have a special connection to a university that non-alumni simply will never have.

[Porcelain God]

I'd be fascinated to read a poll of how many U of M fans actually attended U of M.

Insert eye roll here.

[Who is the Drizzle?]

I have no problem with people rooting for whoever they want, but I think that alumni have a special connection to a university that non-alumni simply will never have.

I was accepted to the U of M 3 different times, but went elsewhere because it made sense for me personally. Been a fan since I was just a little kid, probably because I liked the helmets or the colors or hated green. Doesn't really matter how random or shallow the reason was, the fact that they've been my team for 25+ years trumps that. When I went to a D-II undergrad my coach had to tell me not to wear Michigan gear to practice because I didn't play for Michigan. When I'm watching games with M alums they don't give a **** that I don't know the secret handshake or don't know the town very well.

Do alumni have a special relationship with the school? Of course they do. I have a special relationship with the university I went to and the grad school I went to as well. I'm just not sure how that is relevant to a football game.

[CapitalTigers]

Do alumni have a special relationship with the school? Of course they do. I have a special relationship with the university I went to and the grad school I went to as well. I'm just not sure how that is relevant to a football game.

How being an alumnus equates to rooting for <insert alumnus football program here> relation doesn't equate to you, really? That's fascinating.

Sports are an extension of the school.

Also, I stand by that belief that someone who graduates or goes to a school has more of an affinity and understanding/ camaraderie with other alumns to a sports program than non attendees.

[Who is the Drizzle?]

How being an alumnus equates to rooting for <insert alumnus football program here> relation doesn't equate to you, really? That's fascinating.

Sports are an extension of the school.

Also, I stand by that belief that someone who graduates or goes to a school has more of an affinity and understanding/ camaraderie with other alumns to a sports program than non attendees.

Yeah it really has no relation to me. I didn't give two cents about my high school's teams because it was horrible sport to watch. Same with DII college. And I'd rather watch Auburn/LSU, for example, than UM vs. Delaware St. or Eastern Michigan. Unless it somehow ends up being a close game. *ducks*

So that's where I'm coming from. If you think you're a 'better' fan than I am that's fine, I just think that says more about you than it does about me.

[LineCrosser]

Michigan State have nearly single handedly made Michigan/MSU one of the dirtiest rivalries in college football. Now, I'm no coach, but MSU also started winning games when this happened. Could personal fouls be a key to winning games? Hard to believe it could be a coincidence

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read here, and that's saying a ton. The only reason this wasn't a four TD blowout was that the stupid personal foul penalties kept UM in it, by giving them first down after first down.

If you think MSU's strategy for winning games is playing dirty, then you have no concept of how football works.

And I realize there's a smilie there, but I'm not reading it as sarcastic. If it is, then never mind.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

^^^Pretty sure it was sarcasm.

Personally, I never really understood the whole 'you can't be as big a fan, or aren't a real fan, if you didn't at least attend' school x. And I write this as a fan and graduate of UM.

In my experience, I have often found that to be a line used to either discredit a jackass or make a condescending jab at a fan of another team. Note: I'm not saying that is the case here.

[drownwithyou]

I'm surprised this debate comes up so often on these forums.

[Nolan]

I go to MSU now for med school. I have been a UM fan all of my life. My family members have always been Michigan fans, and since most of my cousins and aunts and uncles and grandparents live in Ohio and all love OSU, it is a natural rivalry in the family. I have to defend U of M to my cousins and other family members at every Christmas and Thanksgiving. I went to WMU for undergrad. It was the only place I applied to since I planned to live at home and commute to campus.

Now I pretty much root for both teams. I root for Michigan to win when they play each other. I am still a bigger U of M fan however. Anyway, being in grad school at a school is not similar to being an undergrad somewhere, in my opinion.

[lionstigersand...]

^^^Pretty sure it was sarcasm.

Personally, I never really understood the whole 'you can't be as big a fan, or aren't a real fan, if you didn't at least attend' school x. And I write this as a fan and graduate of UM.

In my experience, I have often found that to be a line used to either discredit a jackass or make a condescending jab at a fan of another team. Note: I'm not saying that is the case here.

I completely agree!!! There's no rational justification not to dislike Walverines and Wolverines equally.

[SpartanValor]

Wojo referring to the penalties as "roughing-the-supposed-passer". Haha awesome

[Johnny Mac]

Wojo referring to the penalties as "roughing-the-supposed-passer". Haha awesome

That is classic