Hall of Famers Not Behind Rose

[OldTimey]

This is from espn Insider.

The baseball writers have reached their conclusions on Pete Rose's reinstatement bid, and it's not a pretty sight.



RoseLast week, after Rose admitted to betting on baseball as Cincinnati manager in 1987-88, Peter Gammons called Rose perhaps the lowest figure he's encountered in 32 years of covering the sport. Tracy Ringolsby of the Rocky Mountain News judged Rose guilty of the worst "atrocity" imaginable in baseball. And Richard Justice of the Houston Chronicle and Ken Daley of the Dallas Morning News were among the prominent writers who said there's no way they can justify voting for Rose.
If that sounds like bad news for Rose and his legacy, consider this: His ball-playing peers -- his alternative route to Cooperstown -- have soured on him even more.

Rose must be reinstated from the ineligible list by commissioner Bud Selig before December 2005 to appear on the writers' Hall of Fame ballot. After that, 20 years will have passed since his final big-league game, and Rose will have to be judged by the Veterans Committee.

Baseball Insider interviewed four Hall of Famers and Veterans Committee members at an autograph show in Houston last weekend, and the anti-Rose sentiment was palpable. It ranged from disapproval (Whitey Ford) to dismay (Don Sutton) to outright contempt (Gaylord Perry). Juan Marichal was the only one of the four who expressed support for Rose.


Ford: 'Pete better get in with the newspaper writers.'
"Pete better get in with the newspaper writers, because he might have a tougher time with the Veterans Committee," Ford said. "I haven't talked to a lot of them. But if you based it on the 10 that I've talked to, he wouldn't make it."

Perry was even more definitive. "He wouldn't stand a chance with us," Perry said.

Until last year the Veterans Committee consisted of 15 retired players, media members and executives who debated their choices in a back-room setting. But after borderline candidate Bill Mazeroski benefited from some lobbying by former Pirates executive Joe Brown to make it to Cooperstown, the Hall of Fame instituted a more open, all-inclusive voting process.

Now it's a chore for anyone to make it. Last year the revamped committee, which consists of more than 80 Hall of Fame players, writers and broadcasters, failed to elect a single new member. Gil Hodges came the closest but appeared on only 61.7 percent of the ballots cast -- well short of the necessary 75 percent.

Rose's peers are naturally inclined to vote for him on the basis of his 4,256 career hits, 17 All-Star appearances and on-field hustle. But he's carrying so much baggage these days, even Alan Dershowitz might not be able to make a case for him with the Veterans Committee. Let us count the reasons for their discontent:

In the eyes of his peers, Rose committed the mother of all baseball violations by betting as a manager. They all saw Rule 21(d) posted in the clubhouse and grasped its significance. So why couldn't he?


Perry: 'People talk about corked bat and spitballs, but that's nothing compared to what he did. It's like a bunt to 10 grand slams.'
"There are people I've bumped into who say, 'There are wife beaters and drunks (in Cooperstown),' " Sutton said. "Yes, but that's not the issue. The issue is gambling. You can throw all kinds of stuff against the wall. Are there people in the Hall of Fame who've led less than Billy Graham lives? Heck, yes. But that's not the issue."

Perry, who has admitted to throwing a Vaseline ball in the big leagues, said Rose's transgression is far worse, because it threatened the integrity of the entire game.

"Every year before the season, your general manager would give a talk from the commissioner about certain things," Perry said. "Gambling was one of them. When Pete was a manager, he had to be laughing when the general manager said, 'You can't gamble.' He just gambled right from his office.

"People talk about corked bat and spitballs, but that's nothing compared to what he did. It's like a bunt to 10 grand slams."

Rose lied in his first book and spent 14 years denying that he wagered on baseball. Along the way, he jeopardized the reputations of everyone from investigator John Dowd to biographer Roger Kahn.

"I have a problem with admitting that you lied for 14 years, and the lives that affected," Sutton said. "People did books and interviews and bought into his story and were on his side. Now it's almost as if it's truth for profit. 'I'll tell the truth, but how much will you pay me to tell the truth?' "

Rose only came clean after receiving a $1 million advance for his new book, "My Prison Without Bars." He appeared to value a payday over reinstatement.

"He might need the money," Perry said. "That's fine. It's his choice. But I tell you what I did. I came through the Charlotte, North Carolina, airport, and his book was in the store. I picked it up and put it back and said, 'I'm not going to donate to anybody who did that to my game.' I put it back and left."

Rose is hazy enough on some details that Hall of Famers question if he has told the whole truth. For example, Rose says he can't remember if he placed his first baseball bet in 1987 or during the '86 playoffs. His contention that he never bet from the clubhouse has also been disputed by Tommy Gioiosa.

"Pete lied for 14 years, and he ain't telling the whole truth now," Perry said. "He said he only bet when he became manager. Shoot, he used to bet horses and football and basketball when he was playing. You mean he didn't bet on baseball? I can't believe it."

His remorse was borne out of convenience rather than sincerity.

Even Joe Morgan, one of Rose's best friends and principal defenders, said Rose wasn't contrite enough in admitting he bet on baseball. Maybe it was just a question of tone, but Ford agrees.

"To me it looked like, 'All right, I quit gambling. Let's get on with things,' " Ford said. "Pete belongs in the Hall of Fame, but he could have felt a little worse about it -- apologize to the people in a nice way and say he's sorry."

One man's capitalism is another's opportunism. Bob Feller wasn't the only one who questioned whether Rose should have profited from his outcast status each summer during Hall of Fame weekend.

"Pete used to come to Cooperstown every year and sit in a storefront and sign autographs while we were up there," Ford said. "Guys are angry with him. It really turned a lot of guys against him."

Rose didn't win any sensitivity points when his book came out the same week the 2004 Cooperstown inductees were announced.

"That bothered me a lot," Sutton said. "Paul Molitor and Dennis Eckersley had tremendous careers and followed the rules. I think the announcement of the book -- and I don't have any idea how it happened -- was unfair to the Hall of Fame and unfair to Molitor and Eckersley."

Some Hall of Famers are concerned that letting Rose in runs contrary to all the shrine stands for. It's the old "there goes the neighborhood" theory.


Sutton: 'I will never do anything to tarnish this, and I don't want anybody else to.'
"I was so awestruck sitting in that room the first night with all those guys," said Sutton, a 1998 inductee. "It's the Valhalla of baseball. I made a silent commitment - 'I will never do anything to tarnish this, and I don't want anybody else to.'

"I want everybody there to have the same passion and love for baseball and respect for the Hall of Fame that I've been taught by people who preceded me. Like Tom Seaver and Bob Gibson. Seaver took me by the hand when I first got in there and said, 'Here's what we're about.' I will always remember that."

If there's a sliver of hope for Rose, it lies in the forgiving nature of a Juan Marichal, who maintains that "Pete is my friend" and says he supports Rose for the Hall. Marichal concedes Rose made a huge mistake and waited far too long to rectify it. But he believes Rose's contributions on the field outweigh the damage he's inflicted off it.

"Nobody's perfect," Marichal said. "Guys might change their minds. Time changes things. Pete's suffered for many years, and he realizes what he did. If you break the rules, you know you're going to be punished. But I think he's had enough punishment."

The question is, do enough of Marichal's peers share that sentiment? Hardly. Rose is hoping Selig -- the master procrastinator -- reinstates him in time for the writers to determine his fate. If not, baseball's greatest players might have to make the call. It appears a lot of them have already made up their minds.

[Oblong]

Rooster laughed at me when I suggested the HOFers wouldn't support him.

[Rooster]

3 out of 80 so far? One being the master cheater Gaylord Perry, another being a drunk who helped contribute to shortening the career of Mickey Mantle, and Don Sutton, who before he was elected just because he lasted long enough to get 300 wins used to act like he wouldn't care if he ever got in is now holding hands with Tom Seaver?

Impressive list fellas.

[Rooster]

Oh, I forgot Bob Feller, the man who would throw at his own mother. From what I hear about him, he hates everyone.

[Oblong]

With their "flaws", using your reasoning they should support Pete since nobody is a "saint". What does it tell you if a guy is so bad that a drunk, cheat, hanger on, and mean person don't him?

Show me some HOFers who support Pete getting in.

[Rooster]

I listed them already, and I'm sorry I don't have the written proof that you will ask for next, but I've seen interviews of them supporting him. Me thinks you and OT make too much of this HOF crap anyway.

[OldTimey]

Originally posted by Rooster
I listed them already, and I'm sorry I don't have the written proof that you will ask for next, but I've seen interviews of them supporting him. Me thinks you and OT make too much of this HOF crap anyway.

Typical Rose supporter. Rose supporters are as intense as Rose detractors. But one of their arguments is to pretednt hat e Rose detractors are crazy. Nice try, but it's really a defense mechinism. Not an argument.

[Oblong]

The only one I've seen is Mike Schmidt.

The others say things like Joe Morgan has said.

If it's just HOF crap, then let them stick to their rules and Rose and others don't have to worry about it. They said he can't be in, it's their building, so that's that.

[sngglybllz]

I really don't care whos behind the guy or who hates the guy. All I have to say is put him in the HOF so I don't have to hear his name ever again. He is slime and he will not stop making money on this fact until he's in the Hall. My opinion is that baseball should let him into the Hall but never again let him coach, scout, manage or have any connection with MLB. Also on the day he is inducted make it a special day not connected with real HOFers, no speech, no interviews at Cooperstown, no dinner, no luncheon, nothing special, just put him in and throw away the key! I'm am sick to death of hearing of that ungrateful slimeball!

[Todd]

so we should let Charles manson out of prison because i am tired of hearing about the tate murders every time Manson comes up for parole

[sngglybllz]

No

[Brent]

Fergie Jenkins has blasted Rose publically with his "letter to Pete Rose"

http://www.foxsports.com/content/view?contentId=2047384

Pete,
I have been thinking about your problems since you recanted your 14-year denial of the charges that you bet on major league baseball games as a manager. The media has been calling me for my opinion because I am in the National Baseball Hall of Fame. I am being asked if you deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. They are calling other Hall of Famers with this same question. We don't deserve this.

How can you do this Pete? You are getting some bad advice on how to conduct your campaign to return to the good graces of baseball and the public.

How can you upstage the institution you so desperately want to join by allowing your book publisher to launch your confessional book so close to the announcement of this year's Hall of Fame selections?

Your future lies totally with Bud Selig, the Commissioner of Major League Baseball, rather than with what the public thinks of your new book.

Hey, we didn't make the millions these guys are making today, but surely you can find a way to make some money without embarrassing baseball. You broke a major rule on betting on baseball. Rule 21 is in place to protect baseball's integrity. Rule 21 is posted on every Major League Baseball clubhouse door.

After you were caught betting, where was your conscience all these years? Why didn't you come forward with your admission of guilt soon after your lifetime ban? The time for that was the following year or the year after, before your denial became a way of life for you. Why did you let the lie get bigger and bigger?

You have been taking advantage of all the hard work those of us have put in to the sport of baseball to attain a place in the Hall of Fame. You have denied yourself a place along with us because you didn't confess early on.

You supposedly have come clean, but I don't see where you have told the world you have repented enough to donate the profits from the sale of the book to Gamblers Anonymous. No, instead you are going to profit personally from your book's sales. Many states have passed laws that prevent convicted felons from profiting from the sale of books they write about their crimes. Why should you be any different?

Knowing what I know now, I will never support your reinstatement to the game or your bid for the Hall.

Finally, I don't want to read your new book. But tell me this, when do we find out if you bet on baseball when you were a player? Do we find that out in your next book?

And now that I have had time to put this into words, I just hope the media will stop asking your fellow athletes what your conduct was all about.

Fergie

[Biff Mayhem]

I like Fergie......a lot.

[cruzer1]

Hammerin' Hank rules!

ATLANTA -- Hank Aaron is adamant: Pete Rose has no place in the Hall of Fame, or anywhere in baseball.

The all-time home run leader harshly criticized the career hit king for an insincere confession, saying Rose should not be reinstated after admitting he bet on the game.

"During these past few days, I've looked at Pete on television, and he hasn't given any signs of an honest confession," Aaron told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution in an interview published in Friday editions.

"Plus, I've seen absolutely no truth whatsoever in what he's saying," he said.

Aaron, a vice president with the Atlanta Braves, said Rose should be treated like anyone else who gambles on games.

"I just think it's hogwash to say that he should be put back into the game just because the public wants it," Aaron said. "A rule is a rule, and the rule is on every clubhouse door that you can't bet on baseball. It doesn't say that you're excluded if you have 4,000 hits or 700 home runs."

Rose admitted betting on baseball while managing the Cincinnati Reds in the 1980s. He accepted a lifetime ban from the game, which bars him from consideration for the Hall of Fame.

That's the way it should be, according to Aaron.

"What are you going to do about Shoeless Joe Jackson?" he asked, referring to the player who was banned after he and seven teammates were accused of throwing the 1919 World Series. "Ted Williams said many days to me that (Jackson) didn't have anything to do with the scandal. If you let Pete in, you have to deal with that."

Aaron is also skeptical of Rose's claims, considering he is still a recreational gambler who doesn't see the need for professional help.

"It's just like an alcoholic saying that he doesn't drink whiskey anymore, but he still drinks beer," Aaron said. "Pete says that even though he isn't a gambler anymore, he still bets on the horses. That's bad."

In addition, Aaron is perturbed that Rose's book came out just before Paul Molitor and Dennis Eckersley were voted into the Hall of Fame.

"The timing of when he said all of this was very bad," Aaron said. "I'm still quite angry with it."

During Aaron's frequent travels from his Atlanta home to Milwaukee for business purposes, he chats often with commissioner Bug Selig. Aaron doesn't expect Rose to be reinstated anytime soon.

"I know how Bud thinks, so I'm guessing it'll be later," Aaron said.

That said, he never has never discussed the Rose matter with Selig. Aaron would like the commissioner to meet with small groups of Hall of Famers to get their feelings on Rose before making any decision on reinstatement.

"I don't want people to think that, if I go to Bud, he'll gravitate to my opinion," Aaron said.

Aaron is the second Hall of Famer this week to come out against Rose's reinstatement. In an open letter Wednesday, Ferguson Jenkins said, "Knowing what I know now, I will never support your reinstatement to the game or your bid for the Hall."

Jenkins had previously supported Rose's bid for Cooperstown.

"It's so apparent now with the gambling issue, he's kind of lost my vote," Jenkins said.

[MelissaG915]

whatever Johnny says is what the resident Cincy Reds fans says. And Johnny says no.