I'm starting this thread very early in the hopes it might actually start some discussion. We certainly lack MMA discussion on this board.
Anyway, on July 11 we will witness 2 title fights and a third marquee matchup.
Lesnar v. Mir for the undisputed heavyweight title: The first time these guys faced each other Lesnar put a beating on Mir until Mir exposed Lesnar for his lack of MMA experience and turned the tide, submitting him.
I think Lesnar has a better overall MMA base now and won't need to rely upon his brute strength alone. That's a scary thought. I want Mir to win but this is a tough one to pick
St. Pierre v. Alves for the belt: GSP is one of the best conditioned fighters I've seen. But Alves is huge...I don't know what else to say. I'm leaning towards GSP on this one.
Henderson v. Bisping: I want Henderson to win because this is USA v. UK afterall. Aside from that Bisping has been nothing but an a** on TUF 9 and I would like to see him taught a lesson. Unfortunately, Henderson is well past his prime and not going to teach him that lesson. Bisping is in his prime and after this win shouldn't be too far from a title shot in the future.
__________________ 2010 AAT: Michael Hollimon, INF;
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'08-'09 AAP: Richard "Rip" Hamilton2009 AAL: Jon Jansen, OT
This place is packed, "sold out". Never seen it like this. Curtained off 2/3 of Mandalay arena, though. Doubt they were expecting so many. They're also filling up for the Hall of Fame ceremony already.
1. Shannon Gugerty (156) vs. Matt Grice (155).
2. Tom Lawler (184) vs. CB Dolloway (186).
3. Dong Hyun Kim (171) vs. TJ Grant (170).
4. Jon "Bones" Jones (206) vs. Jake O'Brien (206).
5. Mac Danzig (154) vs. Jim Miller (155).
6. Mark Coleman (205) vs. Stephan Bonnar (205). Coleman looked really old and not at all happy on the scale.
7. Jon Fitch (170) vs. Paulo Thiago (170).
8. Alan Belcher (186) vs. Yoshihiro Akiyama (185).
9. Dan Henderson (185) vs. Michael Bisping (186). TONS of boos for Bisping. A hated man. He was in tremendous shape, though, probably his best ever. Henderson was beloved.
10. Georges St. Pierre (170) vs. Thiago Alves (170). Alves made weight. Looks nothing like the Alves we see in the Octagon, which means he's going to put on close to 30 pounds in the next 24 hours. In fact, he might have gained 10 pounds by the time we get to the Lesnar vs. Mir weigh-in, which is next.
11. Brock Lesnar (265) vs. Frank Mir (245). Mir got the first standing ovation of the evening. Mir came in lighter than one would think but was in great shape. Tons of boos for Brock, but less than for Bisping.
Rogan interviewed Mir afterward. Interestingly, he got some boos here. Didn't have much to say. Brock got booed as well during his interview. "It's all over but the crying, baby," he said. "That's all I have to say. See you tomorrow night."
I have to work Sunday morning. Sucks. But I'm going to stay up for this ... this will go down as either the greatest UFC ppv of all time or the worst ... there is so much anticipation for some of these matches that it'll be almost impossible for them all live up to the hype.
Here are my predictions:
Grice over Gugerty.
Lawler over Dolloway
Grant over Kim
Jones over O'brien
Danzig over Miller (i mean, how can you NOT pick a guy with the name Danzig?)
Bonnar over Coleman
Thiago over Fitch
Akiyama over Belcher
Bisping over Henderson
GSP over Alves
Lesnar over Mir
Lesnar KO Mir R2 -- Lesnar now knows that he should use his wrestling to dictate where the fight goes, not just as a means of getting it on the ground. This fight stays standing and Lesnar is too big.
Alves TKO GSP R3 -- GSP will get Alves down, but I don't think he can sub him. Alves is the biggest 170 pounder I've seen. He's going to land a shot or two, and I think eventually, it'll be a big one.
Henderson UD Bisping -- Bisping has lost his previous match-ups with strong wrestlers (Evans, Hamill*). I don't see this being any different, as Henderson's chin is going to make this even more difficult.
Fitch UD Thiago -- Koscheck was cruising until he got caught. Thiago won't be able to stop Fitch's take-downs, though I'm still skeptical of Fitch's ability to finish.
Akiyama TKO Belcher R3
Bonnar UD Coleman
Miller UD Danzig
Jones KO O'Brien R2
* Technically, he took a split decision in this fight, but for me, this is the clearest case of a wrongly called fight in the sport.
Lesnar KO Mir R2 -- Lesnar now knows that he should use his wrestling to dictate where the fight goes, not just as a means of getting it on the ground. This fight stays standing and Lesnar is too big.
Alves TKO GSP R3 -- GSP will get Alves down, but I don't think he can sub him. Alves is the biggest 170 pounder I've seen. He's going to land a shot or two, and I think eventually, it'll be a big one.
Henderson UD Bisping -- Bisping has lost his previous match-ups with strong wrestlers (Evans, Hamill*). I don't see this being any different, as Henderson's chin is going to make this even more difficult.
Fitch UD Thiago -- Koscheck was cruising until he got caught. Thiago won't be able to stop Fitch's take-downs, though I'm still skeptical of Fitch's ability to finish.
Akiyama TKO Belcher R3
Bonnar UD Coleman
Miller UD Danzig
Jones KO O'Brien R2
* Technically, he took a split decision in this fight, but for me, this is the clearest case of a wrongly called fight in the sport.
I'm taking:
Akiyama over Belcher
Henderson over Bisping
Fitch over Thiago
Alves over GSP
Lesnar over Mir
I think this is going to be an awesome card with a ton of fights that could go either way. Henderson has always been one of my favorites and I do think his usual "couture-esque" dirty boxing, grind it out-style wrestling strategy could give him the win in a decision. I think that Bisping is the better fighter and Henderson is past his prime, but it could also be an eye opener to Bisping to face a guy that is going in hoping it's a war and willing to take a few shots in order to give a couple and wear out the opponent in the process. I think Henderson is on the downswing so for the good of the UFC I should be rooting for Bisping but I can't bet against and can't root against Henderson.
I realize that I'm probably a fool for thinking for a second that anyone has a shot at GSP after his last few performances. A guy with the power that Alves has could cause problems for GSP though. We've seen before how GSP can be a shell of himself if he doesn't have that confidence that he can outstrike, out wrestle, and beat the opponent to every punch (or kick). A guy with the knockout power of Alves might be just that type that gives GSP problems and throws him off his game though.
I think that Lesnar and Mir is going to come down to Mir looking for another rookie mistake from Lesnar. I think Lesnar's maturity and overall skill as a fighter can't even be compared from his first fight in the UFC until now. The guy probably trains harder than anyone in the weight class and he is an absolute monster. I think Mir's best chance is nearly the same tactic that he used to win the first fight. You know you're going to get taken down by Lesnar and you know he's going to beat the crap out of you. This time, I don't think that Lesnar is the last person in the building that sees he's about to get put into a submission. I think we'll see another dominant Lesnar performance..... as long as he doesn't go for this again: YouTube - Brock Lesnar Shooting Star Press from WM XIX
Most of the fighting sites are blocked from the work computer, could you tell me more about Danzig, Tony?
I'm pretty sure I've seen him fight - but there are SO many fighters I lose track of who's who!
Dennis --
Same boat here, man. Mac Danzig is a former TUF champion (albeit on a weak show). Before that he had fought in PRIDE and was a long-reigning KOTC champion. He's developed a reputation for being a jack of all trades and a master of none, and that's really hurt him. His strongest aspect is his stand-up, weakest is his wrestling. Fun dude to watch, but I think Miller sets the pace in the fight and ekes out a decision.
-Tony
__________________
2009 AAT: LHP Casey Crosby
(7/26: WMI 8-3 2.92 ERA 86.1 IP 60 H 32 R 28 ER 43 BB 101 K)
Mir's coming in light at 245lbs in a 265lb division....Lesnar is likely to be at least 280lbs after he rehydrates. I'm thinking Mir wants to keep the fight standing...moving Lesnar around the cage like Couture tried to for a round or two to tire him out before going for the KO or the sub in the third or fourth round. I think Lesnar is just too damn strong for that and will like KO Mir in round one or two
I think Alves will be able to frustrate GSP by holding his own on the ground...GSP used his tremendous size advantage to overwhelm Serra, Hughes and Penn on the ground and dictate the pace. I don't see him doing that to Alves....if he can't get the fight onto the ground, he's going to have to rely on his stand up game and I don't think he wants to go that route. Alves by TKO in round 3.
Bisping had a somewhat suspect chin at 205...Henderson has as much power as anyone outside of Silva at 185. I think Hendo KO's him in round 1 or 2
Same boat here, man. Mac Danzig is a former TUF champion (albeit on a weak show). Before that he had fought in PRIDE and was a long-reigning KOTC champion. He's developed a reputation for being a jack of all trades and a master of none, and that's really hurt him. His strongest aspect is his stand-up, weakest is his wrestling. Fun dude to watch, but I think Miller sets the pace in the fight and ekes out a decision.
-Tony
Ok, now i've placed him. I remembered him from the TUF show. I just couldn't pin point where i'd seen him or heard of him from.
I think Mir wants to get the fight to the ground, so he can capitlize on Brocks mistake AGAIN.
+1
If Mir stands up with him, it's gonna be a short fight. Eventually the big man will connect and as much as Mir thinks he can take the punch, he should have realized from that first puch last fight, that he doesn't want to trade with brock.
The longer Mir can keep it on the ground, eventually Brock will slip-up and his inexperience will allow Mir a submission. I'm hoping Brock wins, but more than that, I just hope it's a good fight that lasts a while. I don't want a 30 second fight that ends in a leglock.
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I think he wants to tire Brock out before he even thinks about taking it to the ground...I also think that his ego may get the better of him and that will lead him to try for the KO. He did a great job on his feet against Big Nog...that may give him the feeling that he can stand and outstrike Brock...using speed and superior technique to move in and out on Lesnar and frusrate and tire him out.
I think that would be a mistake...I think Lesnar's just has to much power to try and play that game.
If Mir stands up with him, it's gonna be a short fight. Eventually the big man will connect and as much as Mir thinks he can take the punch, he should have realized from that first puch last fight, that he doesn't want to trade with brock.
The longer Mir can keep it on the ground, eventually Brock will slip-up and his inexperience will allow Mir a submission. I'm hoping Brock wins, but more than that, I just hope it's a good fight that lasts a while. I don't want a 30 second fight that ends in a leglock.
I think it all depends on how well Mir trained for this fight, and just remember Mir is coming of a knee injury which postponed his fight till UFC 100, but if Mir comes into the fight like he did with Nogueira I think Lesnar is gonna have a tougher time then he thinks, but I like Lesnar alot in this fight, he's turning into a beast in this sport.
__________________ 2010 AAT Luke Putkonen, SP
When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading
Lesnar did a great job with the ground and pound and is gonna be a force to be reckon with, can't see many beating him, but the only thing that turns me off with Lesnar is the fact that he's a classless a**.
I know fighters hold grudges, but everyone I've seen has respect for their opponents, Lesnar has no respect for anyone in the UFC or those who are sponsoring the fights, hope someone puts him in his place.
__________________ 2010 AAT Luke Putkonen, SP
When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading
Lesnar did a great job with the ground and pound and is gonna be a force to be reckon with, can't see many beating him, but the only thing that turns me off with Lesnar is the fact that he's a classless a**.
I know fighters hold grudges, but everyone I've seen has respect for their opponents, Lesnar has no respect for anyone in the UFC or those who are sponsoring the fights, hope someone puts him in his place.
I loved that Lesnar still had a chip on his shoulder after it. Mir ran his mouth to no end going into this fight. Dressing up his training partners like Lesnar and pretending to one punch him and talk **** about how he was only a professional wrestler. Although it might have been funny and a pretty good strategy, you can't expect everyone to forgive and forget all that easy. Lesnar was far classier heading into the fight than Mir was IMO, and he earned the right to even the **** talking score if that is what he saw fit. Also, the comedy behind that post fight interview was genius.
I loved that Lesnar still had a chip on his shoulder after it. Mir ran his mouth to no end going into this fight. Dressing up his training partners like Lesnar and pretending to one punch him and talk **** about how he was only a professional wrestler. Although it might have been funny and a pretty good strategy, you can't expect everyone to forgive and forget all that easy. Lesnar was far classier heading into the fight than Mir was IMO, and he earned the right to even the **** talking score if that is what he saw fit. Also, the comedy behind that post fight interview was genius.
I agree with this. Everything Mir said prefight was as though Brock was a big moron. During the Spike preview last night, they even showed his trainers imitating Brock in the ring as though he were "not a smart man" for lack of better words. It was really bad.....and I didn't hear any nonsense like that from Brock. There has got to be only so much you can take.
However, I also feel that Brock does still have a little bit of the WWE in him as far as his showmanship goes. I think a lot of Brocks actions are more for show, to get a reaction, which probably will not go over very well.
Great card as a whole.....definately worth the $50 I spent on beer and food with the wife at Buffalo Wild Wings.
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Last edited by Dirk Diggler; 07-12-2009 at 01:46 AM.
Say what you will about the WWE being scripted and UFC not, that whole tirade by Lesnar after the match was scripted. He was never that good of a promo guy in the WWE ... White can act pissed off all he wants - that was great for business last night.
He was despised by the MMA nerds before - now he's legit hated.
All UFC has to do is find a hero ... they have their super villan.
I loved that Lesnar still had a chip on his shoulder after it. Mir ran his mouth to no end going into this fight. Dressing up his training partners like Lesnar and pretending to one punch him and talk **** about how he was only a professional wrestler. Although it might have been funny and a pretty good strategy, you can't expect everyone to forgive and forget all that easy. Lesnar was far classier heading into the fight than Mir was IMO, and he earned the right to even the **** talking score if that is what he saw fit. Also, the comedy behind that post fight interview was genius.
I recall, Tito Ortiz, Matt Serra, doing the same thing before fights, when they fought the likes of Ken Shamrock and Matt Hughes, as a matter of fact that's all Bisping did when he was asked of Henderson, it's part of the sport to get pumped up, sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't, in Mir's case the smack talk back fired on him.
Flipping off the crowd was a classless act in my book, just like it is in every sport. IMO I didn't think the post interview comedy I thought he was being a complete and udder jackass.
__________________ 2010 AAT Luke Putkonen, SP
When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading
I'm sure some of it was legit anger from Lesnar...but much of it was him playing the role of the "heel" or villain. He's a natural heel...
Wow...he really destroyed Mir...I don't see any of the heavyweights currently in the UFC giving him too much trouble. Carwin has a similar skill set but he's a good 40lbs lighter, Velasquez is too one dimensional, Big Nog would have given him a ton of trouble five years ago...but I think he's shot now. Same story with Randy. Gonzaga?.......not a chance.
The Affliction show in August has Fedor taking on Barnett....I think either one of them would give Brock a lot of trouble as they have great chins and submission skills beyond what Mir possesses. Hopefully, we'll be able to see Brock get the winner of that matchup...or even the loser...in the next year or so. There's a ton of bad blood between Dana White and Barnett and Fedor's demands have been deemed to high...but you have to get some legit competition for Brock or the division will fall off the radar.
Other than that the big suprise for me was GSP....I did not think he would be able to control a really strong guy like Alves on the ground, but he made it look easy. Silva has to deal with Hendo (again), but after that a superfight ...maybe at a 180lb catch weight between GSP and Silva is the money fight.
Lesnar is worth even more money now to the UFC. He's not a moron either, he knows it. He knows that he's a controversial guy, says what he wants, etc. A lot of guys in there are like that but not all of them can back it up as well as Lesnar can. The dude went out there against an opponent that got an upset win over him (in his mind anyway) and has done nothing but talk trash about what a "pro wrestling moron" he is since then. Brock made Mir look like a little kid out there and some fans still booed him. I think half of his flipping the fans off was him being pissed at their reaction and half knowing its good for business.
I think Fedor is the only guy that could legitimately have a chance to beat him right now. Anyone can get caught in a freak submission here and there, but I can't see anyone competing with the power and wrestling skills that Lesnar has other than Fedor. I'm afraid that by the time Fedor gets a shot at Lesnar though he might be too far from his prime.
GSP looked great as usual and Hendo is in a different league than the likes of Michael Bisping. The cocky Brit looked terrified the entire time he was in there against Henderson.
Flipping off the crowd was a classless act in my book, just like it is in every sport. IMO I didn't think the post interview comedy I thought he was being a complete and udder jackass.
I agree. Him being a jackass is going to do nothing more than to fuel the promotional fire for the guy though and I think he knows it. Being unpredictable and doing whatever he wants will continue to sell a ton of tickets and PPV. I'm curious as to how many fights are left on his current contract.
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This was 10x worse than what Brock did to the fans.
I wouldn't say 10x worse, but I wouldn't have hit him a second time because it was obvious he was out when he went down, never the less it was one hell of a knockout punch.
__________________ 2010 AAT Luke Putkonen, SP
When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading
Why don't they need it? It's probably generated more buzz for the UFC than anything else thus far.
All the crying about "this isn't the WWE." Well, guess who your fans are?
You're exactly right. Lesnar will make every single opponent of his more popular and worth more money because of his "heel" character. I guess we'll see what the promo is like for the next fight...but I bet you we see that post match tirade of his over and over again in order to make him more hated and worth more money to UFC. They aren't stupid, it's a business.
Why don't they need it? It's probably generated more buzz for the UFC than anything else thus far.
I think this is probably right -- to a degree. The Coors Light - Bud Light comment was over the line and harmful to the product, in the sense that it actually attacks a major sponsor of the promotion. But the flipping off the fans/playing the villian angle probably did nothing but generate more buzz.
Henderson's victory was the worst thing that happened to the UFC last night. Selling Anderson Silva versus a young, edgy, popular overseas type fighter like Michael Bisping is infinitely better than selling Anderson Silva versus a 38 year old, grizzled fighter like Dan Henderson. The worst case scenario would be Henderson winning that rematch.
All-in-all, it was a fun card and a pretty good night for the organization.
Tony
__________________
2009 AAT: LHP Casey Crosby
(7/26: WMI 8-3 2.92 ERA 86.1 IP 60 H 32 R 28 ER 43 BB 101 K)
I think this is probably right -- to a degree. The Coors Light - Bud Light comment was over the line and harmful to the product, in the sense that it actually attacks a major sponsor of the promotion. But the flipping off the fans/playing the villian angle probably did nothing but generate more buzz.
Henderson's victory was the worst thing that happened to the UFC last night. Selling Anderson Silva versus a young, edgy, popular overseas type fighter like Michael Bisping is infinitely better than selling Anderson Silva versus a 38 year old, grizzled fighter like Dan Henderson. The worst case scenario would be Henderson winning that rematch.
All-in-all, it was a fun card and a pretty good night for the organization.
Tony
Other than the Coors Light/Bud LIte thing, I don't see the problem for UFC. Lesnar is the most popular thing they have going right now, and if he does anything outrageous, it's all the better for UFC.
Dana White is probably pissed because it means someone else is getting his attention.
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