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  1. #1
    Yoda's Avatar
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    Default MLBN's Top 10 Right Now




    MLB Network is doing their Top 10 Right Now for each position. I thought it'd be something to discuss since the offseason is so dead right now.

    They did center fielders Friday night and had Jackson at #4! I was pleasantly surprised by this. #4 in all of baseball behind McCutchen, Kemp and Trout.
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    Bill James went with
    1) McCutchen
    2) Trout
    3) Kemp
    4) Granderson
    5) Jones
    6) Ellsbury
    7) Jackson
    8) Choo
    9) Bourn
    10) Pagan
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Bill James went with
    1) McCutchen
    2) Trout
    3) Kemp
    4) Granderson
    5) Jones
    6) Ellsbury
    7) Jackson
    8) Choo
    9) Bourn
    10) Pagan
    Hard to rank Ellsbury ahead of Jackson because it's much more likely that Jackson plays a full season. Also difficult to rank Choo that high (as much as I really like him) because he hasn't played CF yet.

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    Agreed on both points.

    MLBN's full list:
    Trout
    McCutchen
    Kemp
    Jackson
    Ellsbury
    Choo
    Granderson
    Jay
    Jones
    Bourn
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    Good stuff, I would have wild guessed #5 for AJ. Just imagine how good he'll be in his prime years!
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    I am a huge fan of Jackson now. This team needs more players like him, ie two-way players with a decent eye.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cioe View Post
    I am a huge fan of Jackson now. This team needs more players like him, ie two-way players with a decent eye.
    Totally agree, he was fantastic last year, I really hope he keeps it up next season. I would love to see a little more year-to-year consistency from him, and hopefully he settles on the batting mechanics that he used last year.

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    I wouldn't rank Choo as a CF because his defense is going to be a disaster out there and I'd imagine the Reds will realize it's a mistake to run him out there day after day pretty early into the regular season. He was a below average RF albeit with a strong arm-- but I think the Choo experiment is going to cost the Reds more than most people think.

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    Sven Draconian is offline MotownSports Fan
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysthrowheat View Post
    Hard to rank Ellsbury ahead of Jackson because it's much more likely that Jackson plays a full season. Also difficult to rank Choo that high (as much as I really like him) because he hasn't played CF yet.
    I disagree about Ellsbury. His lack of durability is a concern in terms of his trade value and how much money he should make, but I don't think it should play a significant role in the short term. However, I don't like Ellsbury that much because because he has all of 1 season at that elite level.

    I look at CF as having 2 tiers.

    Kemp
    Trout
    McCuthen

    Granderson
    Jackson
    Jones

    Out of the 2nd tier, Jackson has easily the best defense and should post the best OBP (even assuming he regresses and the Granderson returns closer to his established level).

    The big difference is the power numbers, but both Granderson and Jones play in hitters parks in a division with a lot of hitters parks (Boston, New York, Baltimore). Jackson plays in a neutral park in a division with a pair of pitchers parks (Minny, KC). Their splits are interesting; Jones was unaffected last season but had a huge split home/road in 2011. Granderson had a big split last year (9 fewer HRs on the road in more AB) but had no split in 2011.

    Jackson is also the youngest (by a year) and has nearly 3 fewer seasons than Jones which gives Jackson a better chance to continue his development.

    I can see the logic in putting him at #4. I can see the argument for putting him lower than those two based on a lack of track record.

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    Hard to argue against Ellsbury for having only one elite season, when Jackson has had only one above average season, and no elite seasons. Ellsburys 2011 was far better than Jacksons 2012, and other than an average rookie season, he's been terrible. Ellsbury has always been above average, and in 2011 he had a truly great season.

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    By "hard to argue" do you mean "easy to argue"?

    Jacoby has only played 250 game the last 3 seasons, and was a disaster in the two years surrounding his great season. That's not very good.

    Also, see: "Right Now"... as in who would you want this year. What Jacoby did in 2011 may not reflect what he's going to do in 2013, whereas Jackson hasn't missed the majority of 2 of the last 3 seasons, and whose peripherals have trended upwards three seasons in a row.
    Last edited by Yoda; 01-13-2013 at 03:33 PM.
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    Putting Trout at #1 after just one year? About as silly as considering him for MVP over Cabrera...

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    Quote Originally Posted by roarintiger1 View Post
    Putting Trout at #1 after just one year? About as silly as considering him for MVP over Cabrera...
    I'd trade Jackson straight up for Trout.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Some Dude View Post
    I'd trade Jackson straight up for Trout.
    you and everyone other than jackson's own mother

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    For whatever reason, some people are in complete denial that Trout was the best all-around player in baseball last year. The kid can do everything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    For whatever reason, some people are in complete denial that Trout was the best all-around player in baseball last year. The kid can do everything.
    Yeah I don't get it either. I could see being skeptical if he was some run of the mill prospect/AAAA player that was like 25 years old that did this in his rookie year but he wasn't. He was the number 1 or number 2 rated prospect(depending on who you go by) for the previous 2 years before this season and was only 20 years old. He was a phenom and even if he doesn't repeat what he did last year he is still very likely going to be the best all around CF next year and in the coming years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    For whatever reason, some people are in complete denial that Trout was the best all-around player in baseball last year. The kid can do everything.
    I don't think it is crazy for people to wait and see if he can keep his pace for more than one year before crowning him the best CF in baseball. He did return to human the last two months of the season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mmwatkin View Post
    I don't think it is crazy for people to wait and see if he can keep his pace for more than one year before crowning him the best CF in baseball. He did return to human the last two months of the season.
    He had an .866 OPS in August and a .900 OPS in Sept/Oct while stealing 18 bases(which prorates to 54 over the course of the season) and playing superb defense. So even if he returns to that, that would still probably make him the best CFer in baseball.
    Last edited by RandyMarsh; 01-13-2013 at 08:28 PM.

  19. #19
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    feeling like dj vu all over again
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    Quote Originally Posted by ben9753 View Post
    Hard to argue against Ellsbury for having only one elite season, when Jackson has had only one above average season, and no elite seasons. Ellsburys 2011 was far better than Jacksons 2012, and other than an average rookie season, he's been terrible. Ellsbury has always been above average, and in 2011 he had a truly great season.
    Calling Jackson last year merely above average is a joke.

    But even so, Jackson has had more than one above average season, as he was certainly above average in 2010.

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    Not to mention, Jackson is a better defender.

    Considering Jackson has played 200 more games than Ellsbury from 2010-2012, he's compiled a 14.4 WAR compared to Jacobs 8.6 WAR.

    Defending Jackson placed higher than Ellsbury really isn't that hard at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Not to mention, Jackson is a better defender.

    Considering Jackson has played 200 more games than Ellsbury from 2010-2012, he's compiled a 14.4 WAR compared to Jacobs 8.6 WAR.

    Defending Jackson placed higher than Ellsbury really isn't that hard at all.
    But Ellsbury plays for Boston which means he is better and more important than stupid little Hicktown, Detroit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    By "hard to argue" do you mean "easy to argue"?

    Jacoby has only played 250 game the last 3 seasons, and was a disaster in the two years surrounding his great season. That's not very good.

    Also, see: "Right Now"... as in who would you want this year. What Jacoby did in 2011 may not reflect what he's going to do in 2013, whereas Jackson hasn't missed the majority of 2 of the last 3 seasons, and whose peripherals have trended upwards three seasons in a row.
    Jackson was one of the worst offensive players in baseball in 2011. Very little power, low average, and a ton of K's. He was a glorified Carlos Gomez with less speed. That's hardly trending up after an average rookie year (102 OPS+). And his one good year was not even in the same stratosphere as Ellsbury's. I can't argue against his ability to stay healthy, but in terms if pure talent/potential, he's not close to Elsbury. And please leave out the Detroit gets no respect blah blah blah Boston EPSN nonsense. (I know that wasn't you, but it was an argument made in this thread).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Motor City Sonics View Post
    But Ellsbury plays for Boston which means he is better and more important than stupid little Hicktown, Detroit.
    Really? The MLBN had him above Ellsbury. And there's no bigger Tigers fan than me, what are you even talking about?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerNation View Post
    Calling Jackson last year merely above average is a joke.

    But even so, Jackson has had more than one above average season, as he was certainly above average in 2010.
    Why is it a joke? I think it's the very definition of an above average season. While it was very good, it was not near the season that Cabrera or Trout had. Those are elite seasons in my book, ones that are heads and shoulders above everyone else, where it makes it seem like there playing in AAA. Ellsbury's 2011 was such a season. Jackson last year, while clearly above average, was far from elite. (Of course everybody can have their own criteria for defining elite, and I'm just stating mine, and why it's not a "joke" in my mind.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ben9753 View Post
    Jackson was one of the worst offensive players in baseball in 2011. Very little power, low average, and a ton of K's. He was a glorified Carlos Gomez with less speed. That's hardly trending up after an average rookie year (102 OPS+). And his one good year was not even in the same stratosphere as Ellsbury's. I can't argue against his ability to stay healthy, but in terms if pure talent/potential, he's not close to Elsbury. And please leave out the Detroit gets no respect blah blah blah Boston EPSN nonsense. (I know that wasn't you, but it was an argument made in this thread).
    Jackson's k/9, bb/9, and line drive % have improved every season. That's what I mean when I say his "peripherals have trended upwards three seasons in a row". Peripherals being the key word.

    You keep bringing up how horrible Jackson was in 2011, with his .690 OPS. You do realize Jacoby only had a .682 OPS just last year in over 300 PA's, don't you??
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    Ellsbury's potential and talent are well above Jackson's? No way can I agree with that statement. Jackson's younger, healthier and coming off a far better year. They've both logged three full season at the ML level. Jackson has posted an OPS+over 100 twice. Ellsbury's done it once. If anything, I give the edge to Jackson by a couple of car lengths...

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    Not surprisingly, Verlander came in at number 1 for Starting Pitchers.

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    When was the last time the Tigers were able to legitimately, unconditionally claim the best starter in the game? So many starters, and he's the best.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cioe View Post
    When was the last time the Tigers were able to legitimately, unconditionally claim the best starter in the game? So many starters, and he's the best.
    Best Starter and probably the best Hitter, in ALL of baseball.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cioe View Post
    When was the last time the Tigers were able to legitimately, unconditionally claim the best starter in the game? So many starters, and he's the best.
    It's been a long time.........1968 and 1969 Denny McLain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzaki View Post
    Ellsbury's potential and talent are well above Jackson's? No way can I agree with that statement. Jackson's younger, healthier and coming off a far better year. They've both logged three full season at the ML level. Jackson has posted an OPS+over 100 twice. Ellsbury's done it once. If anything, I give the edge to Jackson by a couple of car lengths...
    I'd take Jackson because I think he is the safer bet for the reasons you mentioned but I think its fair to say that he doesn't have the potential that Ellsbury does because Jackson hasn't come close to putting together a season like Ellsbury did 2 years ago. Ellsbury has shown that he can hit 32HRs in a season, steal 70 bases and hit .321 while playing gold glove caliber defense. Austin has yet to show that he could even steal 30 bases or hit 20HRs in a season. So yeah Jackson maybe safer because he hasn't had the injury questions that Ellsbury has had and he is younger but I don't think he has nearly the upside that he does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ben9753 View Post
    Really? The MLBN had him above Ellsbury. And there's no bigger Tigers fan than me, what are you even talking about?

    You don't understand, do you.

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    Oh wait, sorry - I was watching ESPN.
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    Quote Originally Posted by roarintiger1 View Post
    It's been a long time.........1968 and 1969 Denny McLain
    Bob Gibson

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    I despise ESPN but it is a business and it does very well with it's coverage of the same two baseball teams and every NFL team.
    I find that what is usually very popular is what I don't like.
    Reality TV gets many more viewers than Breaking Bad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by roarintiger1 View Post
    It's been a long time.........1968 and 1969 Denny McLain
    1968 & 1969
    McLain 55 wins 15 losses
    Gibson 42 wins 22 losses

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    Quote Originally Posted by roarintiger1 View Post
    1968 & 1969
    McLain 55 wins 15 losses
    Gibson 42 wins 22 losses
    ...and the rest of the numbers?...
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    Gibson was better than McLain, but had poor run support. I believe the last time a Tigers pitcher was the best in baseball for a period of years was Newhouser in 1944-1946.
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    Quote Originally Posted by roarintiger1 View Post
    1968 & 1969
    McLain 55 wins 15 losses
    Gibson 42 wins 22 losses
    Gibson's 68 season was an all time great. He had the 7th highest ERA+ of all time and posted a 1.12 ERA. He had 13 shutouts, a liveball era record. He posted 21 WAR over those 2 seaons (McClain was 14).

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    Gibson had better numbers and the NL was probably the tougher league at the time. Denny also loses points for being.....Denny.

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